H20 Cars and the Like.....

[Bogie]

In this day and age when we're all looking for something that can beat the ever increasing price of gas, out of the woodwork come concepts about cars running on water, or compressed air, or hydrogen, or on tea.

Here's the deal. CONSERVATION OF ENERGY. You don't get something for nothing. The energy has to come from somewhere. In my 23 years as an engineer I've seen hundreds of these things...NONE deliver as promised. And most are downright scams.

Some may may hold promise, PROVIDED the ENERGY (or energy producing element) can be properly STORED before use. Batteries. Compressed air. Hydrogen. But even with these, you gotta energize them. Batteries must be charged. Compressed air must be compressed. Hydrogen must be produced. In each of these instances, energy is used to establish the energized state. And due to loses in the process, it takes more energy to get something in a state of energy than you will get out of it once stored. Not only that, but you will some energy (for other than propulsion) when the stored energy is expended.

In most cases, the system used to "charge" the battery or compressed air, or separate the hydrogen (from water) comes from machinery running off the electric grid. And the electric grid gets its energy from generators running off a variety of fuel sources....wind, oil, coal, hydro, nuclear. Some of these are "clean" methods of producing electricity....hydrogen produced from energy generated via hydro-electric generators is clean through and through. But don't let this deceive you. The grid is powered by the full assortment of fuels, so the end piece of electricity you use to energize you vehicle might be as much produced from a coal as wind or hydro. Burning a "green" fuel in a "green" car isn't necessarily a "green" event when the total trail of "energy" is traced to source.

There is no holy grail of ENERGY. There is no magic solution for the oil we consume. More efficient cars? Yes. More supply of oil (through drilling or conservation)? Yes. Hybrids? Yes. In the long term, perhaps an alternative fuel vehicle? Yes (but with the caveat that the ENERGY for the alternate fuel will still need to be produced...and you will still pay for it).

One shining example of neat engineering is the Prius. Look where it gets the energy to charge the battery....a generator for brakes (tapping a source of energy every other car wastes in heat). Turning off the engine at idle stop. No magic. Just looking at ways to save (turn off) and generate (braking) power where others cannot.

There is no free ride (figuratively or literally).

[mbeardsley]

I am hoping that the Tesla roadster guys can really make a go of it. Yes, they are extremely expensive now, but once they can really mass-produce the thing, the prices will drop.

And yes, as Bogie says, you're really just changing the use of oil into the use of electricity.

I really feel that the answer to THAT is to go back to nuclear power (which is already happening to some extent). Hopefully, we can build a true fusion reactor someday soon.

[TulsaSky]

Seems the tree hugger's years ago put a "NO WAY NOT IN OUR BACK YARD" to a nuclear plant here in Oklahoma. I was to young to get in on the pro's and con's and in a way since or politicians are so bad here in the state might of been a good thing the nuclear pant never got build.
Now as the song lines in "Oklahoma" says, "Were the winds come sweeping down the plains", they are using those winds and making electricity. In a small town on Interstate 44 off of old route 66 named Weatherford, OK they have many of those huge wind turbines up and running. Florida Power and Light Energy Company maintains and operates the Wind Farm located just outside of Weatherford. Hard to really see in my posted picture but those wind turbines are HUGE, last I heard the town of Weatherford to attract tourist was setting up a organized tour of the wind farm.

TulsaSky

[TulsaSky]

Originally Posted by mbeardsley

I am hoping that the Tesla roadster guys can really make a go of it. Yes, they are extremely expensive now, but once they can really mass-produce the thing, the prices will drop.
And yes, as Bogie says, you're really just changing the use of oil into the use of electricity.
I really feel that the answer to THAT is to go back to nuclear power (which is already happening to some extent). Hopefully, we can build a true fusion reactor someday soon.

What to do with the waste that is radioactive? I read an article somewhere that some of the waste can be re-used but for now we spend a lot of money building containment fields or plants to keep the radiation from harming every living creature it comes in contact with. That is my with nuclear power.

TulsaSky

[SkyBaby]

Bogie... do you have info on the Hondo hydrogen car? my brother was talking about it. SkyBaby

[WishfulThinking]

Originally Posted by Bogie

There is no holy grail of ENERGY.

[RedSkyWV]

The theory is that large scale production is more efficient than small scale (which is usually true). In reality though all of these cars that are powered by alternative means are not much better than gasoline, but they are a step in the right direction.

[lorennerol]

Originally Posted by RedSkyWV

The theory is that large scale production is more efficient than small scale (which is usually true).

All depends on the efficiency of the distribution infrastructure, right? Trucking gasoline around doesn't seem particularly efficient, but then I don't know anything about the electrical grid.

If we can make synthetic oil, can't we produce synthetic gasoline and/or diesel? I wonder there the break-even point would be if gas prices keep going up.

[GetAboutRL]

I am on the waiting list for this car. Someone did a thread yesterday on this forum I believe. I figure being on 'a' wait list is normal after stepping into this Kappa craze line.

For those that missed the posting the other day ..... please watch video's

Zero Pollution Motors - Air Car

Air Car - First Air-Powered Car - Zero Emissions - Behind the Tech - Popular Mechanics

Air-Powered Car Coming to U.S. in 2009 to 2010 - Zero Pollution Motors - 1000-Mile Range - Popular Mechanics

[TulsaSky]

Know of a fellow MG owner who is on the waiting list for a Smart Car, said it would be next year before they would get one.
Posted on my Sunbeam Alpine Owners Club of America, watch this video:
glumbert - Tiny Car Review
See it can and already has been done!

TulsaSky

[KappaMan]

The honda fcx clarity is basically the same play that GM did with the EV1 - it is a captured lease where you MUST give back the car at the end of your $600/month lease. NO option to own the car after your lease is up.

Unofficial leaked insider information is saying the PEM unit (the actual guts of the fuel cell) cost Honda in the range of $75K - six figures.

Each.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by SkyBaby

Bogie... do you have info on the Hondo hydrogen car? my brother was talking about it. SkyBaby

It looks like some great engineering. One way to tell the good stuff from the scams is the good stuff provides solid information on how it works. Honda is very forthcoming on the technology in this vehicle. Fuel cells are not magic. We used them in the Apollo program over 40 years ago!!! And use them on the Shuttle today.

Keep in mind that the viability of this vehicle is more than just producing the vehicle. You gotta have an infrastructure to suppot it. The distribution of fuel isn't ready, and the electric grid isn't ready.

To emphasize the last point, the energy needed to produce the hydrogen has to come from somwhere. In a mass production world, it would come from the electrical grid. If we could all have hydrogen cars tomorrow with hydrogen stations all over the country, I doubt our electrical grid could handle it.

If alternatives like this are going to be viable as a true alternative to oil, we gotta make sure we increase our ability to produce the ENERGY needed to power those alternatives. If not, we'll just swap high oil prices for high electricity prices.

Is this the mass solution for the next 15 years? No. I can see niche markets growing with it over that time, but not as a mass solution. Can it evolve into a serious contender as a mass solution in the 20+ year time frame? Yes.

But the mantra should not be "Build me an alternative fuel car". Rather, it should be "Build me an excess capacity of energy producing plants". Without the latter, the former either won't be viable....or if it is viable, we will be screaming about the high price of hydrogen 20 years hence as opposed to the high price of oil.

[JRinKY]

Based on published efficiencies, if a barrel of oil is refined and burned in a power plant and the electricity generated is used to charge an electric car, that car will travel 70% farther than it would if that same barrel is refined into gasoline and used for motor fuel in an equivalent car. This takes into account refining, transportation, and the efficiency of the vehicle itself. It does not take into account the energy used for vehicle manufacture.

Of course, in addition to oil, electricity can be generated using coal or natural gas, or, as mentioned earlier, nuclear fuel, wind or solar. This gives electric vehicles the ultimate "flex-fuel" capability.

The capacity to charge electric cars already exists in most area power grids. The vast majority of charging would be done at night, when most utilities are operating well below their capacity. Using this excess capacity would actually make the generation more efficient, as the systems work better at high power levels than they do at low levels.

[Bogie]

What I really found interesting about the Honda concept is their approach to building the Hydrogen producing component at home. This has FANTASTIC possibilities well beyond simply powering vehicles. A highly efficient "at home" fuel cell charger can be used to store power for all sorts of things:

Portable power generator. Not only does it provide power when a disaster strikes, it produces FRESH water as a byproduct!!!

In fact, it might be a godsend to places where water is becoming a rare resource. If you're hooked to the power grid in a drought area, you can grow your own water.

Find a way to produce hydrogen at home, efficiently, and safely store it...ensure the grid can handle it.....and this technology can revolutionize our homes and lives well beyond the car.

[redhotchillipepper]

Where is John Galt when you need him?

[JRinKY]

redhotchillipepper : Where is John Galt when you need him?

"Who is John Galt ?"

[Midcoregeek]

Great post Bogie!

I thought along the lines of JRinKY. If regulated and maintained, centralized power generation would reduce the amount of pollution. I have seen plenty of cars on the road that regular maintenance must be a joke to them and so if millions of "little" power plants can instead be charged by a more effecient power system, then it would help. I think.

Besides, we can just petition to get this technology better and cheaper!
AMP offers converted all-electric Saturn Sky in limited run - Engadget

[redhotchillipepper]

Originally Posted by JRinKY

"Who is John Galt ?"

I wondered if anyone would get it.

[gadget]

Originally Posted by Bogie

To emphasize the last point, the energy needed to produce the hydrogen has to come from somwhere. In a mass production world, it would come from the electrical grid. If we could all have hydrogen cars tomorrow with hydrogen stations all over the country, I doubt our electrical grid could handle it.

But the mantra should not be "Build me an alternative fuel car". Rather, it should be "Build me an excess capacity of energy producing plants". Without the latter, the former either won't be viable....or if it is viable, we will be screaming about the high price of hydrogen 20 years hence as opposed to the high price of oil.

Actually even though our power grid is extremely old and abused by greedy mismanagement. It could still handle a great deal of vehicles charging.

The peak power usage is only a period of approximately 10 hours a day. At night the grid is not nearly as close to being maxed out. The majority of people would be charging the vehicle at night to prepare it for the next day and the charge rate on a battery needs to be regulated at a relatively low current for best result. This type of charging would not stress a 115v 30A home circuit

The electrical grid may be one of the better ways to move energy.

Even though a lot of plants burn fossil fuels they are still a lot more efficient by far than the piston engine in a car because they burn energy at a constant rate.
it would also make it easier for us as a society to move between different types of fuels since most fuel burning plants use a boiler to produce steam to turn a turbine and a boiler can be fairly quickly modified to use most any type of fuel with an efficency that is much greater than any engine.

This would also make it much more simple to implement possible solar ,wind ,nuclear ,hydrogen or other form of energy solution that might come.

[KappaMan]

Origi