Energy Crisis. A scam or do you believe?

[LS2 Solstice]

Not to kick an already dead horse (mods plz insert smiley guy kicking a dead horse here) but the more I read and research things the more I question things. Everyone knows that the world is up in arms about this energy crisis thing that is pasted on the T.V. everyday. I want to know how people really feel based on valuable research that they have actually done, about believing this or think is a scam. Now by research I DON'T mean what you've heard on the news so much as maybe articles that have been written by enviromentalist or scientist.

Now obviously I would bet everyone as well as myself care about the enviroment, but how bad is it really? Is it a human created problem, or a cycle of change as back before humans roamed? I have read several articles about some small countries paying the equivalent of .30 cents U.S. currency for gas. Then you have Europe who has always payed higher prices. It's easy to find articles that reach out an expand information about this topic throughout the world, but T.V. mostly only speaks on the U.S. I mean how many of us actually watch programs that are aired from other countries, or programs dedicated to the other continents?? So basically they can feed us what they want.

Is it concerning that 6-10 years ago this wasn't as big a problem and yet now it's over the deep end of being a world crisis. Is it of the same intrest that cars/engines that only got 25 mpg can now get 32-35mpg, but yet we are still seeing prices in gas rise faster than 1-2 years ago and people have actually stopped or slowed down on traveling?

Some of the other research that I have read also stated that Canada is our #1 supplier for oil, with #2 being South America and #3 being the Middle East. I don't really want to get into the "George Bush wanted to do this and that thing" or something related. because that's mostly propaganda, I just want to hear about other peoples research..

The ?'s listed above are just some of mine to get the topic going and to pick brains.

Thanks

Jay

[Jeff Donald]

How much oil did China use 10 years ago and how much does it use today? China was not the manufacturing powerhouse 10 years ago that it is today. World wide production of oil is up slightly from 10 ago, oil consumption is up significantly. Throw in external factors such as weather, lack of refining capacity, and limited exploration and you have a recipe for a worldwide oil shortage among consuming nations.

[MidniteBlues]

As T. Boone Pickens said last night on TV, demand is 86.5 million gallons per day, supply is 85 million gallons per day, you do the math..

Then also read that the USA refiners is exporting it's diesel and gasoline abroad because they can get more money from foreigners...thereby, creating a shortage here and increasing prices.. Theres some research fer ya...

[Celt03]

I know and believe that there is higher consumption than ever before in the history of our planet.
I also find it interesting that our government has given huge subsudies to the oil companies to "offset losses" in the past few years when they are posting the largest profits in thier history.

BUT I'm highly skeptical of any #'s the oil companies or government provide to us.
I remember that back in the 70's during the so-called "oil crisis", I had an uncle who had several wells on his property.
The oil company that he had a contract with came in & capped his wells - then continued to pay my dear uncle as though they were still producing. Then about a year later they came back, put new heads on the wells & proclaimed them to be "new wells" that were under new rules (less regulation).
My dear, now-departed, uncle thought it was great.

[ggccg]

What crisis? Do you know of anybody who has had to wait in line for hours to buy a no more than 5 gallons of gasoline like we did back in 1973?

Federal Reserve experts currently calculate the equlibrium price of a barrel of oil at around $50. That's the price of production of the last barrel needed to satisfy world demand including profit for the producer.

How to we get to $130 a barrel from $50? Speculation in the oil futures market and a nosediving dollar. People bid up the price of oil in the futures market because "experts" make pronouncements about where they think the price should be in future months. And guess who has vested interests in rising prices? The financial experts who prognosticate the future prices!

It's all just part of the grand scheme to complete the transfer of middle class wealth to corporate coffers.

[LS2 Solstice]

Here, a tid bit of info to read.

http://www.elkodaily.com/articles/20...rs/letter1.txt

I like the last post made. As far as what T. Boone Pickens said on TV. He did just that, said it on TV which you and America watched and then you posted and people read and on...and...on.. Plz don't take offense to that statement, it is just a mere example of how information gets transfered when most of America would hear that or read what someone else said and think it's gospel, and not do their own research. It was not a personal attack on your post or you.


Jay

[Texas Red Line]

Let me stir the pot a bit. There is another thread going in the Frontier and this is what I posted, with some addition.

We all know the issue, its our dependence on foreign sources for our oil. We have little or no control over what we are paying. We can and should be making ourselves independent of those sources through safe Nuclear power and domestic production.

As stated supply and demand are close to being equal. This puts the US in a very vulnerable position.

The key is to produce more domestic oil (ANWR, offshore drilling, coal to liquids and oil shale) ASAP to get away from the global oil market. After that is complete we can manage a migration from oil to alternatives on our own time line ...not OPEC’s.

Here is the issue:

ANWR Exploration
House Republicans: 91% Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Coal-to-Liquid
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 78% Opposed

Oil Shale Exploration
House Republicans: 90% Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) Exploration
House Republicans: 81% Supported
House Democrats: 83% Opposed

Refinery Increased Capacity
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 96% Opposed

SUMMARY

91% of House Republicans have historically voted to increase the production of American-made oil and gas.

86% of House Democrats have historically voted against increasing the production of American-made oil and gas.

In a 2006 press release after the Democrats took control of the House Nancy Pelosi issued a press release that stated the following: "Democrats have a ‘common sense plan to help bring down skyrocketing gas prices."

Gas has risen 70% since the dems took control of the House and Senate. Their only effort to reduce prices is to sue Saudi Arabia.

A study by the Rand Corporation estimates the sedimentary rock in the corner where Utah borders Colorado and Wyoming holds about 800 billion barrels. That’s three times the size of Saudi Arabia’s oil reserves.

America is sitting on top of a super massive 200 billion barrel Oil Field that could potentially make America Energy Independent and until now has largely gone unnoticed. Thanks to new technology the Bakken Formation in North Dakota could boost America’s Oil reserves by an incredible 10 times, giving western economies the trump card against OPEC’s short squeeze on oil supply and making Iranian and Venezuelan threats of disrupted supply irrelevant.

ANWR is estimated at 10.4 billion barrels. Remember there are 19.8 MILLION ACRES in ANWR and the proposed drilling site is 2,000 acres. Bill Clinton vetoed the ANWR drilling bill in 1995. At that time it was projected that it could be online in 10 years. Where would we be now if that action was not vetoed?

[sky in pdx]

Thanks Rush.

[Spfld-IL-SKY]

The last thing any of us need is for congress to get involved. We need congress to get out of the way. Let the oil companies drill, refine and sell. Eventually, the current situation will stabilize on it's own.

In the late 70's during the oil embargo, people started conserving by purchasing smaller cars and driving less thus using less fuel. Oil companies took notice and were conservative in raising prices. Gas prices were increasing at a much slower rate than the inflation rate. Americans then developed a desire for larger less fuel efficient vehicle models.

This last go around with the gas prices as not yielded the same fuel efficiencies. People still like their big vehicles and are making the choice to continue to drive them. More power to them.

I believe that the restrictions that the democrats have successfully saddled the oil companies with were intended to force americans to use less oil and to punish the oil business for being profitable. The opposite has happed.

[Texas Red Line]

Originally Posted by sky in pdx

Thanks Rush.

Nice feedback. Appreciate your intellectual input.

[LS2 Solstice]

Texas Red Line.. Thanks. That's a lot of the things that I have been reading too. The enviromental threat IMO is just a plause to increase the income for these big oil corps that are SUPPOSSED to be using this to generate future fuels because they now know that some of the things that you posted and I as well as others have read and researched might be true and it would destroy what they have and that is POWER...If we continue to invest in THEIR future without using the above mentioned methods then what? We're still stuck under their thumb because they still have the POWER of demand not supply.. Supply and demand is a money maker. I don't think this is a supply issue, like stated, whens the last time you couldn't get as much gas as you wanted?? If we could invest in our refineries then we wouldn't have to send our oil to India and other places to be processed. I do still believe that we need other sources of energy that can be just as efficent or better than oil, I just don't think there is an enviromental threat as stated in the press. It takes 100 years for our exhaust gases to get the the ozone.
I don't understand the punishing the oil companies thing that congress stated.. How can they financially punish them when they want them to gouge us to be able to fund new technology? We as public people can't control nor supply oil technology at home but future energy sources maybe able to be done by the average joe, so THEY (meaning future fuel inventors) need to be able to make energy that we can't take away. For instance the hydrogen thing and how much it takes to produce. Do a short search, and it seems to be that electroylsis can seperate hydrogen from water.

Jay
Jay

[Jeff Donald]

Originally Posted by Texas Red Line

Here is the issue:

ANWR Exploration
House Republicans: 91% Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Coal-to-Liquid
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 78% Opposed

Oil Shale Exploration
House Republicans: 90% Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) Exploration
House Republicans: 81% Supported
House Democrats: 83% Opposed

Refinery Increased Capacity
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 96% Opposed

Can you post the source of these numbers and the specific HR bills you're referring to?

[Texas Red Line]

Originally Posted by Jeff Donald

Can you post the source of these numbers and the specific HR bills you're referring to?

Library of Congress

[ggccg]

Originally Posted by Texas Red Line

after the Democrats took control of the House Nancy Pelosi issued a press release that stated the following: "Democrats have a ‘common sense plan to help bring down skyrocketing gas prices."

Gas has risen 70% since the dems took control of the House and Senate. Their only effort to reduce prices is to sue Saudi Arabia.

Nice try at laying the economic problems of America on the Democrats. But NEWS FLASH! Democrats to not control the House since they do not have the votes necessary to override vetos. A slim majority in the Senate is meaningless if you don't have a veto-proof super majority in the House.

And, by the way, a majority of Republicans in the House also voted for the Bill permitting the Sherman Anti-Trust action against OPEC that you refer to as suing Saudi Arabia. A similar measure, dubbed NOPEC for the No Oil Producing and Exporting Cartels Act, passed the Senate last year by a 70 to 23 vote, but was set aside after a White House veto threat.

I wonder who it is that wants high prices at the pump.

[cfjara]

Originally Posted by Texas Red Line

Let me stir the pot a bit. There is another thread going in the Frontier and this is what I posted, with some addition.

We all know the issue, its our dependence on foreign sources for our oil. We have little or no control over what we are paying. We can and should be making ourselves independent of those sources through safe Nuclear power and domestic production.

As stated supply and demand are close to being equal. This puts the US in a very vulnerable position.

The key is to produce more domestic oil (ANWR, offshore drilling, coal to liquids and oil shale) ASAP to get away from the global oil market. After that is complete we can manage a migration from oil to alternatives on our own time line ...not OPEC’s.

Here is the issue:

ANWR Exploration
House Republicans: 91% Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Coal-to-Liquid
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 78% Opposed

Oil Shale Exploration
House Republicans: 90% Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) Exploration
House Republicans: 81% Supported
House Democrats: 83% Opposed

Refinery Increased Capacity
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 96% Opposed

SUMMARY

91% of House Republicans have historically voted to increase the production of American-made oil and gas.

86% of House Democrats have historically voted against increasing the production of American-made oil and gas.

In a 2006 press release after the Democrats took control of the House Nancy Pelosi issued a press release that stated the following: "Democrats have a ‘common sense plan to help bring down skyrocketing gas prices."

Gas has risen 70% since the dems took control of the House and Senate. Their only effort to reduce prices is to sue Saudi Arabia.

A study by the Rand Corporation estimates the sedimentary rock in the corner where Utah borders Colorado and Wyoming holds about 800 billion barrels. That’s three times the size of Saudi Arabia’s oil reserves.

America is sitting on top of a super massive 200 billion barrel Oil Field that could potentially make America Energy Independent and until now has largely gone unnoticed. Thanks to new technology the Bakken Formation in North Dakota could boost America’s Oil reserves by an incredible 10 times, giving western economies the trump card against OPEC’s short squeeze on oil supply and making Iranian and Venezuelan threats of disrupted supply irrelevant.

ANWR is estimated at 10.4 billion barrels. Remember there are 19.8 MILLION ACRES in ANWR and the proposed drilling site is 2,000 acres. Bill Clinton vetoed the ANWR drilling bill in 1995. At that time it was projected that it could be online in 10 years. Where would we be now if that action was not vetoed?

I didn't bother reading the rest of your comments after I got to the part of drilling for our own oil....

How do you expect to convince the big oil companies to drill for oil here and sell all of it here. Especially when they can sell it for more overseas. Oil is a global commodity. The only way to keep all of it here is for the government to heavily regulate it or nationalize big oil. So by doing this, you'll be moving away from the free market principles and move us closer to what our neighbors in venezuela and china do.

If you were big oil and gov't came an imposed these regulations on you..you'd have no incentive to continue to invest in the US. You'd invest in other more lucrative ventures and possibly just move overseas all together.

Even if we do find 800 billion barrells of oil off of alaska..who is going to refine it all. You need more refineries as well at the cost of more pollution.

This is all demand driven.. China, India, Chile are growing and demanding like crazy.

It's not an easy fix. If it was, the Republican controlled congress during Bush's first term would have solved it.

So let's stop politicizing this and maybe get out heads together to find the best solution to this.

[LS2 Solstice]

GM VOLT and Chevy-Volt hoax: By General Motors, which Killed the Electric Car

Down towards the bottom of the page it talks about how GM sold the patents they had on NiMH batteries to Texaco, 6 days later Texaco and Chevron merged. Isn't that nice!!

Jay

[cfjara]

so i guess to offer a solution... Long term we need to move away from oil..thats a given. On the shorter term, i think the gov't should drill for oil themselves. This would keep the oil here in the states since it would be using our own tax dollars. Big oil would hate the new competition but wouldn't be able to do anything about it. The key here is de-globalizing this commodity for the US only. We can't do this without heavily regulating existing companies.....which we don't want to do..hence asking our on gov't to do it. Regulation would only result in energy crisis of the early 70's.

This would probably cost billions in taxpayer dollars...and we wouldn't see the benefits for decades....but by then the hope is we will have already developed a viable alternate source of fuel. This is the dilemma faced by lawmakers today. there are many wonderful ideas...but is the cost worth the gamble?

[ggccg]

Originally Posted by cfjara

How do you expect to convince the big oil companies to drill for oil here and sell all of it here. Especially when they can sell it for more overseas. Oil is a global commodity.

Precisely! There's no point in opening our national oil resources to oil companies who are just going to sell it to the highest bidder overseas.

[LS2 Solstice]

All good points guys..Good discussion.

Thanks