290 hp gm ecm tune - confirmed

[Kappa Fan]

Originally Posted by ChgoBlues

Got confirmation from Saturn through ImSaturn that yes, they are still releasing the performance kits but no exact details on them but slated for fall. Click on the view thread to see the posts regarding it.

Rob's Page - ImSaturn

GM Marketing gave me the a week ago that the Stage II is set for release in September - no specific date in September. Pricing has not been set yet.

[G8TR]

Talked to a service rep that I know well. Said he talked to GM last week and that he was told the tune would still be out this fall. Fall starts in September and doesn't end until December, so ....... He did say that the Cobalt using the same engine is what is going to save this tune and make it viable. I don't know anything about Cobalts, however I see on the Chevy site that they have a 2.0L turbo ecotec that they use in one version, so I guess that's what he's inferring. Hope so, would be nice to have a GM tune and not have to worry.

[ebonysky]

FYI...The Saturn Dealer where I bought my car has no information about this kit. They checked for any advanced information and/or part number for it...nada!

[SkyGuy97]

I have spoken to two different Saturn dealers and they know nothing. This is coming from the same rep that told me "the Red Line is out of your price range"....hahaha.....tell that to my Yellow Red Line!!!!

[mbeardsley]

Well, the dealers are almost always the last ones to know about stuff.

While I am sceptical about this happening, the fact that the dealers know nothing about it is actually encouraging.

[dengel]

Originally Posted by ebonysky

FYI...The Saturn Dealer where I bought my car has no information about this kit. They checked for any advanced information and/or part number for it...nada!

Originally Posted by SkyGuy97

I have spoken to two different Saturn dealers and they know nothing. This is coming from the same rep that told me "the Red Line is out of your price range"....hahaha.....tell that to my Yellow Red Line!!!!

I'm not surprised. When I spoke to the parts department at my dealership, they readily admitted that they will probably be the last to know about this tune or any other performance parts that get released.

The parts department guy said that the parts catalogs get updated once a month. They won't receive the new parts catalog until the middle of the next month.

So if we assume a September release, it will probably be mid-October before the dealerships have any details such as part numbers, prices, etc.

He also stated that the "tune" part of the kit is stored on a central GM computer system. When you buy the kit, they have to download the software update from that central GM database onto your car. So even if we find out the part number for the kit through other means, you won't be able to buy it until the software is made available on that website. And that might not be until that month's parts catalog gets released.

[Slowbro]

Originally Posted by Ahnuld

I had posted way in the past about a site that tracks the Power to Weight ratio... Idea being that a lighter car doesnt need same HP to compete, and the true speed factor is the HP per vehicle weight.
Horsepower Site - All Cars

(Cars below are 2007 model numbers, compared to the 290hp RL)

So.... just doing an update, based on 290hp on the Redline
Chevy Corv cpe - 400 - 3179 - 7.95
Porsche Boxter S - 295 - 2965 - 10.05
Sky Redline - 290- 3071 - 10.59
Subaru WRX - 293 - 3315 - 10.72
Mitsu Evo -286 - 3263 - 11.40
Ford Mustang GT - 300 - 3450 - 11.50
Chevy Monte Carlo ss - 303 - 3490 - 11.51
Nissan 350x - 306 - 3601 - 11.77
Dodge Charger RT - 335 - 4031 - 12.03
Honda S2000 - 237 - 2855 - 12.05
Audi A8 - 350 - 4288 - 12.25
Toyota Camry 3.5le - 268 - 3461 - 12.91
Mazda RX8 - 232 - 3045 - 13.13
Mits Eclipse GT - 263 - 3545 - 13.48
Acura RL - 290 - 4014 - 13.84
Chry PT Cruiser GT Conv - 230 - 3471 - 15.09
Mazda MX5 - 166 - 2602 - 15.67

I just gotta ask in the defense of the evo, where these numbers come from? Do you mean wrx or sti? WRX is no where near as fast as the evo and even with less HP's the evo is still faster stock then the sti. Don't believe me.. watch some Top Gear on youtube.

[fr0stb1t3]

Originally Posted by Slowbro

I just gotta ask in the defense of the evo, where these numbers come from? Do you mean wrx or sti? WRX is no where near as fast as the evo and even with less HP's the evo is still faster stock then the sti. Don't believe me.. watch some Top Gear on youtube.

Don't necessarily take Top Gear to be the end all be all either. The new STi beat the new Evo and the old STi and Evo on a Japanese track quite handily. There's a video of that on youtube as well (was done by a Japanese car mag). In fact, as Bogie will tell you, the Solstice Z0K (which is all suspension upgrades, no motor work) quite handily beat up on the Lotus guys as well as the STi and Evo guys in the SCCA T2 class last year. By handily I mean they took first second and third. The third place guy actually raced a Lotus all the way up to the finals and decided to buy the Solstice the day before the race to be more competitive.

[Ahnuld]

Originally Posted by Slowbro

I just gotta ask in the defense of the evo, where these numbers come from? Do you mean wrx or sti? WRX is no where near as fast as the evo and even with less HP's the evo is still faster stock then the sti. Don't believe me.. watch some Top Gear on youtube.

Some of the numbers werent posted on that referenced site.... so I looked up weight and HP on my own
interesting story on Wikipedia about japanese cars wouldnt advertise more than 286 HP... which is what I had in my calcs.
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that being said... looks like it says the current North America model puts out 291hp with a weight of 3517lbs... 5 more HP, but 250 more pounds... I havent rerun the simple calc, but by that sites formula I think the number gets worse!


EDIT: Mitsubishi site confirms the 291. couldnt find reference to weight.
Assuming wiki is correct... simple division calc.

12.08 is the ratio... definately got worse.
I'll find it later... but I read articles about the new EVO that trashed it.. saying the styuling got worse and the performance.

Drag isnt factored in here... which will affect times. just a simple baseline that the guy came up witj

[Spartan]

I don't know if this is the real deal but I visited the above website for the first time in a while and noticed a tune is now for sale. It advertises a race tune and performance tune with the former allowing for an (ahem) 80 % increasein whp and 60 % increase in torque. The prices were $695 and $495 respectively. Also looks like they've added a Hahn style intercooler kit for $899.

Spartan

Saturn Motorsports

[GeniusInABottle]

This is not the tune being discussed here.

Originally Posted by Spartan

I don't know if this is the real deal but I visited the above website for the first time in a while and noticed a tune is now for sale. It advertises a race tune and performance tune with the former allowing for an (ahem) 80 % increasein whp and 60 % increase in torque. The prices were $695 and $495 respectively. Also looks like they've added a Hahn style intercooler kit for $899.

Spartan

Saturn Motorsports

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by G8TR

He did say that the Cobalt using the same engine is what is going to save this tune and make it viable. I don't know anything about Cobalts, however I see on the Chevy site that they have a 2.0L turbo ecotec that they use in one version, so I guess that's what he's inferring. Hope so, would be nice to have a GM tune and not have to worry.

That was probably good speculation. Cobalt is a mass produced vehicle. The Cobalt SS does indeed share the same engine and turbo as the kappa. In fact the Ecotec is a GM "global" engine block, intended to fit cars across the GM lineup. Case in point: When the gas crisis struck earlier this year, GM actually starting "looking into" fitting this setup into an economic version of the Camaro.

As for the tune, I suspect it's more than just getting the performance out of the Ecotec. This engine is already "dialed back" a bit for delivery of the 260HP. It's not a matter of squeezing 30 more HP out of the engine, but mostly releasing the performance. The question might be drive train capability. As I've noted before, if GM hits the torque spec on this tune, and if those specs can be delivered in first gear, we'll have more torque to wheels in first than a C6 Vette. Is the Cobalt or Kappa drive train built for that kind of torque? If so, how much into the margin will it take the vehicle and how concerned will GM be that other mods might push it past the breaking limit?

[JeffInDFW]

[quote=Bogie;357648]
As I've noted before, if GM hits the torque spec on this tune, and if those specs can be delivered in first gear, we'll have more torque to wheels in first than a C6 Vette.QUOTE]

The C6 Vette has 424 foot pounds of torque. So, are you saying that this tune from GM for the Kappas has 290hp and 425 ft/lbs torque?

[RedSkyWV]

Gear ratios... the torque that hits the road is not even close to the torque at the engine in first gear.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by RedSkyWV

Gear ratios... the torque that hits the road is not even close to the torque at the engine in first gear.

Correct.

Part of the confusion may be in the use of "torque to wheels" when expressed in terms of a dyno run. The dyno charts do not actually show the torque "at the wheel", but instead identify the torque from the engine delivered to the drive train with the drive train losses removed. Or, said another way, it is how much brake horsepower (or torque) gets mapped to the wheels? It is not the ACTUAL torque at the wheel.

The ACTUAL torque at the wheels is this engine torque multiplied by the gearing. If you take a C6 420 lb-ft torque and run it through the Vette's first gear/diff to the wheel and you take a SKY 310 lb-ft and run it through the SKY first gear/diff to the wheel, the SKY will deliver more torque "at the wheel" because the SKY gearing multiplier is that much higher than a Vettes.

Of course, this boast is short lived since a strong gear trades RPM for mph. You will have to shift at around 30mph (giving up the slight first gear advantage for a significant disadvantage in second gear) in the SKY while the Vette will hold first all the way to 60. If you can actually put it all down (problematic for a host of reasons), a SKY would poke a nose lead over a Vette up to 30 mph, at which point we begin to fade at an accelerative rate, ending a second or so behind at the 60 mph point and two to three seconds behind at the quarter mile.

Edit: And getting back to my main point is the impact a tune has on the drive train. The ACTUAL torque through the gear train and to the wheels generates shearing forces that the train must accommodate. Although 310 lb-ft might be easy for the Ecotec engine to handle, that torque will be running through a gearing chain that, at the end of the line, will torque the wheel at a greater torque force than a Vette. A Vette's drive train is designed for those forces. To what extend is the SKY's or Cobalt's drive train designed for those forces?

[ChgoBlues]

Originally Posted by Bogie

That was probably good speculation. Cobalt is a mass produced vehicle. The Cobalt SS does indeed share the same engine and turbo as the kappa. In fact the Ecotec is a GM "global" engine block, intended to fit cars across the GM lineup. Case in point: When the gas crisis struck earlier this year, GM actually starting "looking into" fitting this setup into an economic version of the Camaro.

As for the tune, I suspect it's more than just getting the performance out of the Ecotec. This engine is already "dialed back" a bit for delivery of the 260HP. It's not a matter of squeezing 30 more HP out of the engine, but mostly releasing the performance. The question might be drive train capability. As I've noted before, if GM hits the torque spec on this tune, and if those specs can be delivered in first gear, we'll have more torque to wheels in first than a C6 Vette. Is the Cobalt or Kappa drive train built for that kind of torque? If so, how much into the margin will it take the vehicle and how concerned will GM be that other mods might push it past the breaking limit?

Bogie,

Found this on the GM Tunersource site. Even though it applies to the LSJ, the supercharged version set up of the 2.0L Ecotec, I would imagine that the same applies to our application regarding upgrades to performance. I realize this also is referring to cam replacements, however, I remember reading on the site somewhere about a Stage 3 Kit for the LSJ engine and it voiding the warranty and requiring changes to internal parts to handle the power increase.

So the kit we are waiting for probably is limited by how much the engine itself can handle. If what I remember was the 2nd piston ring is what was giving way with no engine mods aside from the Stage 3 kit on the LSJ but could not relocate that statement.



Attention, LSJ-owners!

If you are working on upgrading your Cobalt SS Supercharged or ION Redline for off-highway performance, you’ve probably already read Chapter 6 of the ECOtec 2.0L LSJ Power Book (if not, you can download it from gmtunersource.com by clicking on ‘Racer Tech’ then ‘ECOtec LSJ Build Book’). Many of you have already emailed, asking about the high-performance cams that are referenced in that chapter. Well, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that GM Racing has these cams available, right now, for sale. The bad news is that we don’t have very many.
......
As a reminder, these are the cams in Chapter 6 of the ECOtec 2.0L LSJ Power book (part number 88958686). These cams are labeled with the ‘Special Parts Notice’ as shown in Chapter 6. They are for off-highway applications and will void your powertrain warranty. Also, as noted in Chapter 6, these cams require aftermarket valve springs. If you are interested in the exhaust-ported LSJ head also shown in Chapter 6, we have a FEW of those left. It is part number XGH734 and price $1210. Same rules for ordering apply.
Good luck and be safe!

Here is a link regarding Q&A about Stage 3 kit for the LSJ also. It might shed some light on the kits GM offers.

http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer...Stage-3-QA.pdf

[shifty]

Why has this post died? If this is such a bad ass tune that still carries the GM warranty, where do we get it?

[shifty]

Could someone please sum up this thread. I am looking at diffrent tunes, I have looked at the RPI, Westers and Saturn Motorsports tunes. Without reading 8 pages, what is in the kit that GM is going to offer this summer. What kind of gains are we suposidly supose to see. Do you think it is worth waiting on over going ahead and getting a diffrent tune?

[kwayne]

What we were told at MECCA II was that GM was bringing out a 290hp 310torque WARRANTABLE tune.