The end of Saturn?

[SKYHIGH007]

Originally Posted by Va_Sky

I hope they do NOT sell Saturn to Toyota or any other foreign manufacture. If they do they well loose all my business and support.... I have never bought a piece of crap vehicle built buy a wholly owned foreign manufacture and never will... Buy American.... END OF LINE...

Having owned (moderately priced) sports cars almost all my life, from five Triumphs, to MG, to Datsun/Nissan, to Toyota MR2 to Sky R/L...Japanese made were FAR superior. I owned a 1985 MR2 from July '85 to Oct '08 and loved it. Well designed and well built...still ran great with 288,754 miles on it! Any parts replaced with non-Toyota parts were cheaper, but disappointing. When Toyota began using assembly plants in the U.S.A., quality dropped.

Patriotism is great ("old glory" waves in front of my house daily), but supporting mediocrity is foolish. I love my R/L, but I also know I will have to replace it before the warranty expires. Handling and performance surpassed quality and reliability, when I met the Sky.

If I could own a made-in-Japan Saturn Sky R/L, it would be the with me until the day I died.

American workmanship has improved in the last few years, thankfully, but still has a pretty long way to go.

[eddf]

"Patriotism is great ("old glory" waves in front of my house daily), but supporting mediocrity is foolish."

I agree 100%.

People work too hard for their money to accept poor design and poor build quality.

All else being equal, I want to buy American. But, any company has to earn my hard earned money - I'm not a blind devotee of any brand.

I purchased my Sky because of its uniqueness - and its damn fun to drive. But, if I'm shopping for a sedan or coupe, domestic car makers are probably not going to get my consideration.

Ed

[xmicro_Redline]

I have had Toyota, Nissan, and Honda Vehicles........Nothing compares to the reliability of the Honda, and they are not perfect!

Toyota quality is not much above most good American cars, and Nissan turn to crap really fast, especially the paint

I think GM will do what they are proposing and just support our cars at other GM dealerships, ie: Chevy, or Buick, etc. They would honor warrantee's or they will not sell another car.

And all the Sky and Sols are made in Delaware, we saw them making even Opels when we took the factory tour, what idiot said they were made overseas?? Some people!

[JeffInDFW]

A few diverse thoughts on the subject.....

One of the reasons GM is looking to let Saturn go is because GM has secured around 7 Billion dollars in debt with Saturn assettes. If GM just lets the banks that hold that loan take those assettes, it can wipe 7 Billion in secured debt off the books.

GM has 400 Saturn dealerships. There are over 1,000 Pontiac dealers. GM will have to buy out those dealerships....

When GM killed Oldsmobile, they allowed Olds customers to get warranty work at any other GM dealership. If Saturn goes away, I have no doubt in my mind that we will all just take our Skys to any other GM dealership and get warranty work done there.

I own a Viper GTS. It has almost NO parts in common with anything else sold by Dodge. My Viper is also now 12 years old, yet I am still able to buy most parts at the parts counter. A few oddball parts are hard to get, but remember, they only build 1,000 Vipers a year and they don't share any parts.

Our Skys engines (both turbo 2.0 and base 2.4) are shared in a lot of other GM vehicles. Our rearends are from the Caddy CTS. Our transmission is shared...and so on and so on. Parts will not be a problem for a LOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time.

What could be a BIG problem is....resale value. One of two things will happen:

1. 1996 Impalla SS. 1986 Grand National. Just two examples of cars that were desirable when they were new, yet had only 3 year model runs. Because of this, they held their resale value beyond anyones dreams. The Sky would also only have a 3 year model run, has been desirable as proven by its short days supply numbers, and would be going away thru no fault of its own.

OR

2. Saturn is dead, and nobody wants to own one. Unfounded warranty fears, etc. Value goes to the toilet.

[compdoc777]

Originally Posted by |V3nom|

i hope they sell saturn to toyota. im a toyota fan and i think theyd do a good job with saturn. saturn hospitality, toyota quality. plus toyota needs a sports car. the supras gonna own when/if it comes out but itll be super expensive so they need a cheap two-seater. just my .02.

I want Honda to buy Saturn and blend the S2K and the Sky.

[Va_Sky]

Originally Posted by JeffInDFW

There are over 1,000 Pontiac dealers. GM will have to buy out those dealerships....

GM dose not have to buy out these dealers. They can just let them go under, which I would do if I were them, but most of these dealers are combined Chevrolet, Buick, and Pontiac, so if Pontiac just went away they wouldn't have to do anything and no one would even miss them. Plus if Saturn goes away who's going to get tapped to sell the Opel brand here in the U.S. The Opel/Saturn combination is GM's import fighting brand.

[Cajun Sky Turbo]

Originally Posted by JeffInDFW

A few diverse thoughts on the subject.....

One of the reasons GM is looking to let Saturn go is because GM has secured around 7 Billion dollars in debt with Saturn assettes. If GM just lets the banks that hold that loan take those assettes, it can wipe 7 Billion in secured debt off the books.

Did someone say the sky is falling and now everyone is now in a panic??? Okay, so GM has 7 Billion in debt with Saturn assets. Do we forget why GM created Staurn in the first place? The older GM facalities were aged, and would be costly to re-tool to the world competitive standards and in a strangle hold by the UAW. Lets not forget the cost in changing the work forces mentality on a LEAN working process, something that Honda has used from it's conception. IMO I think that if GM wanted to liquidate anything, it would begin by shutting it's older plants and discontinue more of the Chevy line or at least roll some of the successful models under a combined new identity that would include the cream of the crop from, Chevy, GM, Saturn,Buick and Caddy. That is a business plan that makes sense, not selling off the investment you previously made to make your company more competitive on the world market and keeping the white elephant on your back that has been bringing you down. . .

[OLDMX4]

Cajun, you make alot of sense but why would they need to do this? The "Career" Politicians that we idiots keep voting back in office are going to give them what they want ... a bail out

Until we get the lobbyist and underhanded deals out of washington, the bail outs will continue and the rich get richer

Our new President promised "Change" .... we will see ?

[Kappa Fan]

Originally Posted by Va_Sky

GM dose not have to buy out these dealers. They can just let them go under, which I would do if I were them, but most of these dealers are combined Chevrolet, Buick, and Pontiac, so if Pontiac just went away they wouldn't have to do anything and no one would even miss them. Plus if Saturn goes away who's going to get tapped to sell the Opel brand here in the U.S. The Opel/Saturn combination is GM's import fighting brand.

IF that were ever to happen ... I suspect it would be with Buick, whcih I believe Opel was associated with many years ago here.

[wizer]

I am going to look at this in a very simplistic way...

Odds are that the warranty will still be valid regardless of what happens with GM, and worst case scenario, it isn't and a few of us will have some issues with our cars and have to pay a mechanic to fix them. It sucks but it's not the end of the world.

Parts will continue to be available regardless of whether or not Saturn still exists, if not through GM then through a third party. There is demand, so there WILL be supply. Parts are still available for discontinued models of other brands, Sky's will be no different.

Because it will only be a 3 year model run and the car is really cool, relatively inexpensive for it's class, and will be considered a "classic", the resale values will skyrocket.

It doesn't matter to me because I don't plan to sell mine anytime soon but it's good to know.

End of story.

[snaponbob]

Cajun, Kappas are built in the Wilmington, Del. plant. It is one of the oldest least efficient plants GM has. When I was selling Oldsmobiles the models that came out of Wilmington were the worst of the lot.

I bought a Silhouette in it's last year of Oldsmobile's life. No warranty issues at all. It could be taken to any Chevy or Pontiac dealership. If Saturn goes, we would go to Pontiac shops for no other reason than they have background with Sols. A Chevy dealership wouldn't know what they were looking at.

Being objective, if a division was dumped, Saturn would be the easiest. Smallest network, and only two unique units - Vue and Astra. The Astra has been a slow selling and Vue could easily be rebadged or dumped without anybody noticing. The Aura is up against the Malibu (and soon a Buick). The Outlook is also an Acadia, Chevy Traverse, and Buick Enclave. And we know about the Sky.

Somebody had mentioned Buick not going away because of the Chinese market. Weak argument as some of the Chinese Buicks are market specific. Buick could be dropped as a division with the Brand name continuing as Chinese specific as Opel is basically a European brand. Hummer is toast. My guess would be Chevy, GMC, Pontiac, Cadillac.

One thing for sure, I wish my Outlook was a GMC now. Oh well.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by snaponbob

Cajun, Kappas are built in the Wilmington, Del. plant. It is one of the oldest least efficient plants GM has.

Efficiency is measured in many ways. Stack Wilmington up against other plants in raw efficiency, and you are correct. The initial plans were to build it in Mexico, on the same lines that produced the Delta platform (e.g., Cobalt). But that was when they were trying to fit the concept into the Delta platform. Once the decision was made to design new architecture, the efficiency became tied to the tooling lifecycle and the production rate. Customized tooling in Mexico vs Customized tooling in U.S. is probably a wash. And the cut between tool and human interface would also play a factor, as the machine-vs-human trade occurs at higher capacities, hence the need for skilled workers. Add to that the blurring between engineering and production, and the need for human interaction goes up even more.

Wilmington as a whole might be an inefficient plant. But given all the unique circumstances surrounding the kappa, it might have been the most efficient choice at the time.

[JeffInDFW]

Originally Posted by Va_Sky

GM dose not have to buy out these dealers. They can just let them go under.

Wrong. Use Google, and look up "state franchising laws". If I have invested millions of dollars buying a Pontiac or Saturn franchise, then GM is legally bound to supply me with product.

Here is an exerpt from a New York Times article:
When General Motors shut down Oldsmobile, it cost the company more than $1 billion to buy out the Oldsmobile dealerships across the country.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/22/bu.../22nocera.html

Saturns Spring Hill Tennessee plant does not build Saturns anymore. It builds one model. The new Chevrolet Traverse. If it is one of the plants that has a lean on it, it would be easy to shut it down and build the Traverse in the plant that builds the rest of the Lambdas (especially since the Outlook would be no longer built).

More info to back up my claims:
From GM Inside News:
Today news came out that General Motors is considering parting ways with Pontiac, Saturn and Saab. It’s no secret that GM will likely have to cut more of their eight U.S. brands if federal assistance is to be granted by Congress. Another aspect of the business that GM is very eager to cut is their debt. At last report, GM was sitting on about $43 Billion in debt, but sources tell GMI that very little of that debt is secured by assets. GMI has also been told, well before the grave financial news, that Pontiac’s future is shaky at best. However GMI is now hearing that if GM were to dispose of the Saturn division, they could kill two birds with one stone.

As mentioned, most of GM’s debt is unsecured, but according to an article from the Chicago Tribune states that GM has a $1.5 Billion and $4.5 Billion revolving loan that are both secured by “equipment and assets of the Saturn brand.” Prior to about a year ago, GM’s Spring Hill, TN assembly plant was essentially the Saturn plant. Back when the division was created in 1985, that assembly plant was Saturn’s home. GMI has heard that along with most of the Saturn brand, that Spring Hill, TN plant is also secured in the debt. Currently that plant builds one vehicle; the Chevrolet Traverse. Due to the dwindling market demand of vehicles period, one has to wonder if GM could not easily start building the Traverse where its cousins are built; at the newly built Lansing-Delta assembly plant that produces all the other Lambda crossovers. The whole reason Spring Hill was selected to build the Traverse was so that it would have the capacity to meet the projected demand.

As the rumors have suggested, GM brass is looking at dumping Saturn. The interesting twist is that GMI is told GM is looking at working with the banks that GM has that debt secured with to take possession of Saturn. That would leave GM with one less brand and several billion dollars less in debt; secured debt at that. However it sounds as if it would leave them with one less assembly plant as well.

What would happen to Saturn if the banks took over the brand is largely unknown. Its assumed that the banks would sell Saturn to the highest bidder; which may not be an easy task in this global economy.

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Unfortunately, a lot of people are posting comments that just have no idea what they are talking about. Back it up with FACTS and show where you got the info.

[Kyle Engelsmeier]

if im paying saturn for my sky for 6 years, and they go out of business....

will i get a free car?

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Kyle Engelsmeier

if im paying saturn for my sky for 6 years, and they go out of business....

will i get a free car?

You pay Saturn each month?

On a more serious note, your debt is an asset for the lender who loaned you money...and your car is the collateral that secures it. If your lender (or the owner of the debt secured by your car) defaults to their creditor, then their assets (your debt) will usually transfer to that creditor. That creditor will then own your debt and and will have rights to the collateral should you also default.

Bottom line: If your debt has value, it doesn't matter if the car company goes under, the bank goes under, or all the entities in a long line of debt transfers goes under. Someone...somewhere....owns the right to collect the debt, along with the rights to the collateral that secures it should default occur.