So SAD..Americans DON'T CARE

[Nemesis]

I want to state something that needs to be said about my generation, that I feel is being reflected in this thread. I apologize ahead of time if this is way off topic, I feel it is what we are all seeing the surface of, but not digging into.
There seems to be a popular state of mind in my generation, that all things should be ok, that all frames of mind, that all beliefs, that all ways of doing things are ok. This sounds great in theory because 1. I don't have to stand up for anything because what I say and what they say is ok. 2. I do not need to feel responsible for others morals and belief systems, because everything is ok. This resolves a lot of fights and in the short term everything is ok.

The problem with this, is that my generation has nothing that brings them together. They are all so different, they are all so unique, they are all ok, even if they are not ok. In the long run, everyone moves in their own direction, away from a centralized belief, or common ground. For some this is ok, for others it causes them to go off in their own direction. Maybe blame all their problems on others. When that guy killed all those people at VT, when those boys killed all those people at Columbine, etc, etc: they did not see value in those people because they had lost their centralized beliefs, they had lost the common ground with those people, they didn't care about them.
My generation needs to look back at the previous generations and see why there are so many killings like this in our generation and not in those previous generations. When we don't come together as a whole, when we don't support ourselves, when everything is ok, and everyone is right - how do we determine what is wrong?

[lostcause]

lol...not gonna touch that one. I could literally write a dissertation on that topic. Moral relativism, psychological egoism, what constitutes "natural" behavior and is there such a thing as "unnatural" behavior since we are all part of nature to begin with...etc..etc...

ok...back to the topic at hand....sorry for the intermission....

[Rick Tinley Park]

Originally Posted by random_fool

one thought on a level playing field - one of the biggest gripes that "american" auto companies have about the competition is that "american" companies have significantly higher overhead in pensions and healthcare costs than foreign companies.

this is a legacy of past guarantees made to auto unions in the immediate post ww2 period. japanese auto compaies do not bear these burdens nearly as heavily, even with the factories in built in america.

so a question to the "older" generation.....any of you willing to forgo the generous pension and health benefits for the good of "american" auto companies?

What needs to happen is the opposite. Either the imports raise the wages, benefits etc to compete in the USA at our levels or an import tax is levied that levels the field for the and adds $ to US coffers. It is time that the world stops talking about the USA lowering its life to match theirs and time for "developing" nations to do what is right and develop!

[Skip]

Boy, Mike yall dun started something that has gone on fir a while now. Shoo, Skip be thinkin of jumpin in but my views is old fashioned....Skip...

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by lostcause

lol...not gonna touch that one. I could literally write a dissertation on that topic. Moral relativism, psychological egoism, what constitutes "natural" behavior and is there such a thing as "unnatural" behavior since we are all part of nature to begin with...etc..etc...

ok...back to the topic at hand....sorry for the intermission....

Sure....toss it to the side, continue the cycle.....we're all ok, right? ....my opinion is ok, your opinion is ok......

[southphillylakes]

Originally Posted by Skip

Boy, Mike yall dun started something that has gone on fir a while now. Shoo, Skip be thinkin of jumpin in but my views is old fashioned....Skip...

Well Jump In

[random_fool]

Originally Posted by Rick Tinley Park

What needs to happen is the opposite. Either the imports raise the wages, benefits etc to compete in the USA at our levels or an import tax is levied that levels the field for the and adds $ to US coffers. It is time that the world stops talking about the USA lowering its life to match theirs and time for "developing" nations to do what is right and develop!

i'm not sure that you got my point. japan and germany have a comparable (or superior) quality of life to the united states. these foreign auto companies build factories in the states for 2 very good reasons - political cover and relatively cheaper labor.

the lack of level playing field here is because the foreign companies are not offering the same generous pensions that gm and ford were tossing out in the 60's to pacify labor disputes. these legacy costs are now huge and plays a major role in the total cost of making an "american" automobile.

so it's not about other countries offering cheaper labor here, it's american auto companies paying for the healthcare and retirement of large segments of their workers.

so again.....anyone willing to forgo that for the good of the "american" auto industry?

[random_fool]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

I want to state something that needs to be said about my generation, that I feel is being reflected in this thread. I apologize ahead of time if this is way off topic, I feel it is what we are all seeing the surface of, but not digging into.
There seems to be a popular state of mind in my generation, that all things should be ok, that all frames of mind, that all beliefs, that all ways of doing things are ok. This sounds great in theory because 1. I don't have to stand up for anything because what I say and what they say is ok. 2. I do not need to feel responsible for others morals and belief systems, because everything is ok. This resolves a lot of fights and in the short term everything is ok.

The problem with this, is that my generation has nothing that brings them together. They are all so different, they are all so unique, they are all ok, even if they are not ok. In the long run, everyone moves in their own direction, away from a centralized belief, or common ground. For some this is ok, for others it causes them to go off in their own direction. Maybe blame all their problems on others. When that guy killed all those people at VT, when those boys killed all those people at Columbine, etc, etc: they did not see value in those people because they had lost their centralized beliefs, they had lost the common ground with those people, they didn't care about them.
My generation needs to look back at the previous generations and see why there are so many killings like this in our generation and not in those previous generations. When we don't come together as a whole, when we don't support ourselves, when everything is ok, and everyone is right - how do we determine what is wrong?

i do believe that there are ties that bind. as much as i shudder sometimes, there are ties that binds me to bush lite, there are ties that binds me to a religious conservative in the deep south, there are ties that binds me to a whole host of people that i don't often agree with or like to associate with.

i think first and foremost is my general faith in our system of government (despite it's many failues), my faith in the rule of law, my faith in the general decency of most americans, my faith in the bill of rights, etc. etc.

as much as i think the country is split over blue and red states, i don't question that we all feel american.

[Rick Tinley Park]

Originally Posted by random_fool

i'm not sure that you got my point. japan and germany have a comparable (or superior) quality of life to the united states. these foreign auto companies build factories in the states for 2 very good reasons - political cover and relatively cheaper labor.

the lack of level playing field here is because the foreign companies are not offering the same generous pensions that gm and ford were tossing out in the 60's to pacify labor disputes. these legacy costs are now huge and plays a major role in the total cost of making an "american" automobile.

so it's not about other countries offering cheaper labor here, it's american auto companies paying for the healthcare and retirement of large segments of their workers.

so again.....anyone willing to forgo that for the good of the "american" auto industry?

The question should be then - are the current workers ready to lose the benefits? And once more if the field really was level - the costs would be equal. Having government paid healthcare just means your taxes are proportionality higher. Workers for the auto industry have to be compared to auto workers world wide.

[random_fool]

Originally Posted by Rick Tinley Park

The question should be then - are the current workers ready to lose the benefits? And once more if the field really was level - the costs would be equal. Having government paid healthcare just means your taxes are proportionality higher. Workers for the auto industry have to be compared to auto workers world wide.

unfortunately international macro-economics lies outside my field of expertise, not sure if it's possible to have a true "level playing field" in any meaningful sense of the word.

i asked my question in a retorical sense. unionized american auto workers are clearly not willing to forgo the generous benefits they have been receiving.

i posed the question to point out that there are no simple answers to the questions posed in this thread. the very concept of an "american" company or "american" identity is in constant flux in a country as diverse and fluid as ours.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by random_fool

i do believe that there are ties that bind. as much as i shudder sometimes, there are ties that binds me to bush lite, there are ties that binds me to a religious conservative in the deep south, there are ties that binds me to a whole host of people that i don't often agree with or like to associate with.

i think first and foremost is my general faith in our system of government (despite it's many failues), my faith in the rule of law, my faith in the general decency of most americans, my faith in the bill of rights, etc. etc.

as much as i think the country is split over blue and red states, i don't question that we all feel american.

-----

[Texas Red Line]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

I want to state something that needs to be said about my generation, that I feel is being reflected in this thread. I apologize ahead of time if this is way off topic, I feel it is what we are all seeing the surface of, but not digging into.
There seems to be a popular state of mind in my generation, that all things should be ok, that all frames of mind, that all beliefs, that all ways of doing things are ok. This sounds great in theory because 1. I don't have to stand up for anything because what I say and what they say is ok. 2. I do not need to feel responsible for others morals and belief systems, because everything is ok. This resolves a lot of fights and in the short term everything is ok.

The problem with this, is that my generation has nothing that brings them together. They are all so different, they are all so unique, they are all ok, even if they are not ok. In the long run, everyone moves in their own direction, away from a centralized belief, or common ground. For some this is ok, for others it causes them to go off in their own direction. Maybe blame all their problems on others. When that guy killed all those people at VT, when those boys killed all those people at Columbine, etc, etc: they did not see value in those people because they had lost their centralized beliefs, they had lost the common ground with those people, they didn't care about them.
My generation needs to look back at the previous generations and see why there are so many killings like this in our generation and not in those previous generations. When we don't come together as a whole, when we don't support ourselves, when everything is ok, and everyone is right - how do we determine what is wrong?

This would make a very good discussion for the Frontier threads. I am not putting you down for posting here but this could lead to a good discussion between "previous generation" and "this generation"

[marlboromike]

It's time for me to fade away...but not before I breathe a last breath...I don't respect other people's opinions when I find them repulsive to my way of thinking...I am one dimensional at best and few things will change my mind at this point...I grew up in an era when serving their country was honorable. That's why it says "Honorable Discharge". We knew it would be advanced boy scout training...at least in peace time, but we cannot predict aggressions.

It may be a global economy but the money still says US MINT....why do u believe our currency is accepted worldwide? Everyone had better look over your shoulder because this country is changing...and not for the better...Personally, I believe it is too late to change what was once a great place to live and die....I can procrastinate, but few r left to listen to an old man's banter. I am sorry I even started this thread.

[Desertsky]

Why Mike?

I believe at least a third of us agree with most of your thoughts! I feel the change too, but I also believe that it will turn out to be OK. As long as there are still good people like you in the world we will be OK! There are so many good people on the forum too!

I care and so do others...Just have faith!

[deep_blue_sol]

Originally Posted by marlboromike

I was reading the NY Daily News the other day and the question asked to 8 people were "Do You Care that Toyota beat GM in Car Sales"? The answer... Nobody cared if they bought an American car any longer.

I know Toyota and Honda are made in America...but they r not American companies and they do produce a better quality car but the question asked, "Do You Care"?....not ONE Cared!

I am too old!

Bet Detroit Daily news has a different answer.
As for quality, I have my doubts. I do own a Toyota van, and I've been happy with it, but would not touch the flagship Camry. 4 of my co-workers own it, and the issues they face are reminding me of my previous Dodge van.

[DropTop2]

Originally Posted by deep_blue_sol

Bet Detroit Daily news has a different answer.
As for quality, I have my doubts. I do own a Toyota van, and I've been happy with it, but would not touch the flagship Camry. 4 of my co-workers own it, and the issues they face are reminding me of my previous Dodge van.

nothing personal, but the camry isnt a flagship. The avalon is the flagship sedan for toyota. sorry.