08 Brakes

[Mandi]

Okay....a ton of 08 Redline people are having trouble with their brakes. So....the point of this thread is going to be getting them fixed. It would be great if all the people that are simply complaining about it would just read the posts....and not add to it. There are enough threads like that already.




To clarify..............



Operators of 2008 Redlines/GXPs/G2Xs notice....

(1) A high brake effort due to low vacuum levels....which happens at cold start or high altitudes.

(2) Brake pedal movement or pulsation while braking when the booster system is activiated.



These cars have a couple of ways they assist in braking. First is the typically vacuum brake booster....this is the system that is used most of the time.

The second booster system is called OHB.....or Optimized Hydraulic Boost......(not to be confused with hydraboost that using the power steering pump to assist in braking)..........this sytem uses the ABS to assist in braking when vacuum is low.








So the issue is you don't have enough vacuum when the vechile is first started. The current fix is to reprogram the ECM (engine control module) AND the EBCM (electonic brake control module)....per bulletin 07-05-25-007B, issued 5/16/8......

*The ECM reprogram will help increase vacuum when the engine is cold started.

*The EBCM reprogram sounds like it will actually revert back to orginal programming if the EBCM has be reprogramed once before......this is a 'B' bulletin....so I'll bet the first was just for the EBCM.




There are a couple of notes in the bulletin....

*Brake pedal vibration/ratching will only be reduced....remember, thats just the OHB working.

*Allow the engine to idle for a period of time to allow vacuum to build up.....no extra data on the amount of time....but if you start the vechile first and THEN buckle up and do whatever you have to do before you go, it *should* be enough. Basically by the time the idle comes down.


This bulletin covers.......

Saturn built before 8Y129355.

Pontiac built before 8Y129363.

Daewoo...All Vehicles.






So if you havent been back to the dealership since the middle of May.......or you haven't recieved this update yet........get it. You first have to get the ECM and EBCM reprogramming done before you can move on....thats the current fix.

Even if you have this issue....your brakes will still work..it will just take more force. Back in the day, cars that weighed twice as much only had manual brakes!

The '07s got a vacuum pump to MAKE vacuum...but does not have OHB...and the '08s didn't get an extra vacuum pump. There is no information in the service catalog about adding pump to the '08 system. I don't who, why, or how they came up with that....other than the service department or tech assist decided to put '07 parts on a '08.

The only other bulletin out that covers brake assist is one that covers 'normal operation'....07-05-22-002.....it states.....

The following OHB characteristics are considered to be normal:

• Increased brake pedal effort under low brake booster vacuum.

• Change in brake pedal effort when OHB is active.

• Ratchet sound coming from the brake system during OHB activation.

• Frequent brake stops may result in OHB activation.

• High altitude driving may result in OHB activation.

• Brake pedal movement or pulsation when the OHB is active.

[Gerry]

Mandi,

Thanks for organizing the issue. One other thing that I have not seen on the forum regarding cold-start brake operation on the '08; I've noticed that if I apply the brake hard once or twice before rolling off (even without letting it warm up for 30 seconds or so), that the brakes are fine. It has been a week since I last drove the Sky and I did one hard brake apply as soon as it started this morning and I was on my way.

[Mandi]

The updated ECM and EBCM calibrations are for manuals and automatics.

I should also add that due to the fault....this isn't an issue that developed over time or 'broke'....it would of been present at the time of your inital test drive of the vechile and at delivery.....so I think this might exclude anyone from the lemon law. I think this might also be the reasoning for Saturn/GM to do anything more than an updated calibration.

[TN_Midnight Sky]

I find that if you let the engine idle down to below 1000 RPM, that the
brakes are back to normal. I just have to slightly press the gas a couple of times to get it to do this after start up.

[Mandi]

So once the ECM and EBCM have been reprogrammed......and idling the car for 30 seconds or so.....has that been taking care of it?

[SCVanguard]

That's how mine has been working. Got the EBCM tinkered with and by the time the revs drop down to low idle I'm ready to go.

[Mandi]

Sounds like it *should* take care of the issue.......the updated calibrations and waiting for the idle to come back down so the engine can make vacuum. As, when its at the higher rpm the throttle plate isn't fully closed....so there is no vacuum.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Mandi

I should also add that due to the fault....this isn't an issue that developed over time or 'broke'....it would of been present at the time of your inital test drive of the vechile and at delivery.....so I think this might exclude anyone from the lemon law. I think this might also be the reasoning for Saturn/GM to do anything more than an updated calibration.

The lemon law has to do with number of times submitted for service or how long the vehicle is kept for service over a time interval. The fact the fault is "by design" will not serve Saturn well if the case goes to court. In short, refusing to fix a problem by claming it's not a problem (or that it's been fixed) won't protect a manufacturer from a lemon case.

As for the pre-existing condition during test drive and delivery, that won't hold much water and might actually work against Saturn. Many lemon problems are pre-existing at time of delivery, it's just the problem has not manifested itself yet. Most test drives are performed on a vehicle that has been running sufficiently to build the vacuum. Hence, the test drive will not detect the problem. This argument may backfire on Saturn in court, as the fact a dealership ensures the vacuum builds could be argued as an overt attempt to hide the defect from the buyer.

IANAL.

[Mandi]

Are you having this concern with your Sky, Bogie? It also sounds like you are going down the lemon buy-back road....is this true?

Do you have the current updated calibrations for the ECM and EBCM which came out 5/16/8?

[Bogie]

Are you having this concern with your Sky, Bogie?

Yes and no. Yes, I have OHB..and no aux pump. No, I don't currently have the concern, but only because my driving habits are able to eliminate the problem. I always let vacuum build. I don't use valet. My vacuum cylinder seems to hold vacuum quite well (once it's there), and I don't hardly ever use cruise control.

Ironically, the only time I get worried is when I drop the car off at the dealer in the evening for work the next day, not knowing if the person driving it into the bay after a long sit knows about this problem. I actually put a note on the steering column to alert the driver, which brings the irony full circle. The owner telling Saturn how to drive a Saturn.

It also sounds like you are going down the lemon buy-back road....is this true?

Nope. Love the car.

Do you have the current updated calibrations for the ECM and EBCM which came out 5/16/8?

Nope.

I'm not really complaining for "me", because I have 100% workarounds. I'm complaining for others who either don't know they have the problem, or are unable to use the vehicle as they intended because they can't accommodate the workarounds that I can accommodate.

When I go in for my next oil change, if they want to flash my ECM and EBCM, I don't care either way as long as it doesn't muck something else up.

[Mandi]

Would you call yourself the spokesperson for the 08 Hard Pedal issue then?

Get the reprogramming done.....at the very least you can talk on it from your position. Right now as it stands....you agree you have an issue....think Saturn should come up with a better fix....but the current fix has not been performed. Who are you to say the current fix isn't good enough when it hasn't even been performed on your vechile?

Sounds to me like you want Saturn to slap a 07 vacuum pump in there...is that it?

I/We have no first hand experience with this......mine is a 07....my fiance hasn't had to perform the bulletin or has he driven one with the issue. However, there are lot of things they can do with ECM calibrations....and beings the issue is a lack of engine vacuum, it should be a step in the right direction.

[Bogie]

Would you call yourself the spokesperson for the 08 Hard Pedal issue then?

Yes.

Get the reprogramming done.....at the very least you can talk on it from your position.

That is true.

Right now as it stands....you agree you have an issue....think Saturn should come up with a better fix....but the current fix has not been performed. Who are you to say the current fix isn't good enough when it hasn't even been performed on your vechile?

I haven't passed judgment on the latest fix. I have seen reports here that the previous fix did not work. I have no data on the latest fix. But Saturn is batting ZERO on this issue (with the exception of jodenssky's fix...which was a vacuum pump). The track record isn't good. I'm open to trying the latest fix and seeing what happens. Hopefully, it won't make it worse. But I must re-emphasize, it's not about ME.

Sounds to me like you want Saturn to slap a 07 vacuum pump in there...is that it?

For me, I don't care right now. I have workarounds. Considering every time someone techs the car I run the chance of something else getting broken, I don't always opt for the latest fix. Why fix something I can accommodate and risk something else going bad?

But there are others who can't accommodate the current problem. And quite frankly, they've been jerked around by Saturn multiple times. "It's working as designed". "There is nothing we can do". The design sucks. People have wrecked their cars. Others are scared to drive their cars. Saturn? "It's working as designed, and there is nothing we can do". Stick head in sand and ignore customer. As for the current crop of solutions? Would they be moving like this if it were not for the NHTSB investigation? I don't know the internal timeline between the engineering fix initiation and NHTSB, but why did it have to get to this point?

However, there are lot of things they can do with ECM calibrations....and beings the issue is a lack of engine vacuum, it should be a step in the right direction.

Agree. But I'm a bit concerned that it took so long to acknowledge the problem and work to fix it.

The latest fix might do the trick for most (all?) folks having this problem. I don't have data yet. Considering I currently have work arounds, it might be satisfactory to me. But from a current (latter 08 RL production) and future (09 RL production) design standpoint, it looks like GM has opted for what works 100% time......a vacuum pump.

Here's the BOTTOM LINE: If a customer is not satisfied with the latest and greatest ECM EBCM fix, then they should be offered a retro vacuum option.

Edit
***************************

And in response to bulletin notes for the new fix:

*Allow the engine to idle for a period of time to allow vacuum to build up.....

Bogie: "Hey, I see you got that new ECM EBCM for the brakes"
Saturn: "Yep, we can reprogram it for you straight away, under warranty".
Bogie: "Great. 'Cause right now I gotta wait thirty seconds for the vacuum to build when I start it up in the morning".
Saturn: "Well, this new fix should do the trick".
Bogie: "So, anything I need to know about the new fix"?
Saturn: "Let's see....oh...here's a bulletin note. It says to wait and let the vacuum build before driving off".
Bogie:

[mbeardsley]

Simply the fact that the later production '08s have the vacuum pump, shows that GM is not confident in an ECM reprogram to properly address the problem.

I don't see why the rest of us '08 owners can't get the pump installed.

[Mandi]

This forum is full of the biggest cry babies I have ever seen.............................................




No one is willing to truly understand what is going on with their vechile........let alone get the current fixes done for certain concerns....if the current repair HAS been performed and the concern is still present.....THEN bitch and moan about it.

No one on this forum has ANY idea what the lemon law really envolves....or how it actually operates. GM buying back a vechile is NOT lemon law.

[WishfulThinking]

Originally Posted by Mandi

No one is willing to truly understand what is going on with their vechile...

Where did that come from. I think several people would love to understand what's going on. An engine that doesn't naturally generate vacuum at idle, and a booster that has a TSB saying not to replace it when it doesn't hold vacuum are two very nonsensical issues. To me, they both seem to run counter to decades of "normal" automobile behavior.

[Mandi]

The problem is, neither of those two things are happening.

#1. The engine isn't making vacuum on a cold start............because......its not making vacuum yet! Its still at the higher idle and the throttle plate hasn't closed down far enough. Lets also not forget that its a turbocharged 2 liter.....so there is a positive pressure in the intake manifold when under throttle....and not much displacement to work with when its not under boost.

#2. Vacuum boosters bleed down their vacuum after sitting for a period of time...they all do it.

[mbeardsley]

Originally Posted by Mandi

The problem is, neither of those two things are happening.

#1. The engine isn't making vacuum on a cold start............because......its not making vacuum yet! Its still at the higher idle and the throttle plate hasn't closed down far enough. Lets also not forget that its a turbocharged 2 liter.....so there is a positive pressure in the intake manifold when under throttle....and not much displacement to work with when its not under boost.

#2. Vacuum boosters bleed down their vacuum after sitting for a period of time...they all do it.

No one here is disputing either of these points...

The issue is that GM solved both those problems by wisely adding a vacuum pump to the '07 models. Then, to save money, they dropped the pump from the '08 models, hoping that the ABS could compensate.

Unfortunately, the ABS cannot compensate enough (especially for those in high altitudes), and many people are having problems -- some severe, some mild.

Now, GM has wisely gone back to including the pump on late-production '08 models (and presumably the '09s also).

So, the only people with problems are the ones who bought early-production '08s. Those people (including myself) simply want the same solution that GM has given to everyone else. I don't see what is so whiney about that...

[nolates]

I got my redline last thursday and the brakes work fine..sticker on the inside door says built 03/08...do you think it has the pump then? thanks

[WishfulThinking]

Originally Posted by mbeardsley

No one here is disputing either of these points...

I kinda think I am, although, now that it's degenerated into name calling, I'm less and less sure that I understand the point of this thread. I've never had a car that couldn't hold vacuum in the booster overnight. I dare say even over a weekend. I have driven 2 liter and smaller vehicles, and high idle, which is _barely_ partial throttle, still creates partial vacuum. I haven't seen any confirmation that the turbo is boosting at idle (even high idle), and the more I talk to people who have driven other turbo cars, the more wacky that concept sounds. From all the posts I've read while I've been here, I'm beginning to believe that there is really something fundamentally different about the way this engine operates, that makes it defy old-school diagnostic logic. Direct injection and a computer controlled throttle opens up a lot of possibilities that are not obvious from the driver's seat.

So what is the point of this thread again? I thought it was about sharing information and experiences, not acting/explaining things to someone else's satisfaction.(?)

[paulsredline]

Got a letter in the mail today from Saturn. It reads:
This letter is to inform you that General Motors has developed an improved calibration for 2008 Model year Sky vehicles and is now making this improvement available to you. This improvement is available at no charge during your new vehicle limited war