2008 Redline Brake Poll

**Rustyknight** · 09-20-2007, 03:27 PM

Everyone I have been reading about a braking issue at startup in the 2008 Redlines, so if you own a 2008, please post to this thread and vote about the braking issue.

My 2008 Redline was produced the second week of August, I have not experienced any of the startup braking issues that have been discussed.

Just for informational purposes, I have never had any problems with my brakes at all on either my 2007 or 2008

SKY 4 ME · 09-20-2007, 03:34 PM

My 2008 RL does have the brake issue every morning at start up when I go to back out of my garage. I've seen the notice about high altitudes, sitting several days etc. I don't consider Ohio to be high altitude, and it happens if I let it sit overnight. I don't consider that an excessively long time to sit unused, as I figure most people do sleep 5-8 hours each night. I'm used to it now, but it was a real surprise at first, to say the least. It really should be addressed by Saturn/GM.
SKY 4 ME

mbeardsley · 09-20-2007, 03:50 PM

My 2008 redline does have the brake issue, but it does not seem to be as extreme as some others have reported. I never have trouble "stopping the car", but I can feel a difference in the brake response.

I mostly notice it when leaving my garage in the morning, after the car has been sitting overnight.

I am near Dallas, Texas...which cannot be considered as "high altitude".

**Celt03** · 09-20-2007, 04:07 PM

I usually let the car warm up and I ALWAYS leave it in neutral and emergency brake on when I park it in the garage.
Once I went to back the car out of our garage just to park in the driveway. As such, I did not let it idle for as long as I normally would.
I exit the garage slowly because our driveway has a slight but not sharp incline and the driveway sits at an angle in comparison to the garage.
I went to brake and there was NOTHING even though I fully depressed the brake pedal!! I quickly threw the car into neutral and grabbed the emergency brake just in time to keep from rolling out into the street.
(FYI - my driveway is long enough that when my SKY is parked outside, another one or two vehicles can park behind me.)

This was in the morning and neighborhood children are walking & biking past my house to head to school. Understandably - I was upset.

I agree that this is ridiculous that one should have to make sure that the car idles for a while to build up a full vacuum. This is NOT normal and should not be. Someone is going to get hurt & GM needs to fix this before they get sued.

And we are at LOW altitude.

lostcause · 09-20-2007, 04:30 PM

I haven't experienced the problem but it could be for a couple of reasons. One, I'm in miami so I'm right at sea level. Two, I don't park on a hill so to get the car moving I have to step on the gas which could cause the vaccum to build up.

I tried to make the problem happen on purpose the other day but I think I did it wrong. Plus, I like to let the car idle until the idle speed drops to normal before moving it.

SallySky · 09-20-2007, 04:45 PM

I live in MD. My garage sits on fairly steep incline. I back out every morning and have not noticed any difference in braking.

StBartsSky · 09-20-2007, 05:11 PM

So far, no problems here either and sometimes the car actually sits for a few days without moving.

hdwizard · 09-20-2007, 05:13 PM

Haven't had any issues with mine, but I always let it idle down before moving, and I have a stick, so that requires a bit of RPM before it starts moving as well. I have a fairly steep, short driveway to back out of from my garage, so I would think I'd have noticed it by now. Perhaps when the car has more mileage on it?

Not really willing to test it by throwing caution to the wind and sailing right out as soon as the engine is lit, as there are a lot of kids in my neighborhood too. Maybe someday ...

With all that said, I still think GM needs to do something. Even if it's only one out of fifty cars, it's still a safety hazard.

Ron Lebert · 09-20-2007, 05:45 PM

I've had my 08 R/L since the 23rd of Aug. The only problem I had was a low battery, wich I charged. other than that it has been a great car to drive. Both my wife and I love it.

mbeardsley · 09-20-2007, 06:03 PM

Interesting, could it only be the automatics that have the issue ?

williamt2 · 09-20-2007, 06:07 PM

My Car is an 08 Solstice GXP and I have the same problem. Dealer says is normal, anti lock test.
Good Luck and God Bless, Bill Ivins

nscrbug · 09-20-2007, 06:22 PM

My 08 RL (automatic) has the brake issue upon start-up. I'm guessing my car was built in early August (delivered to dealer on 8/22). I don't live in a high-altitude city, and our driveway is completely flat. I experience this problem almost on a daily basis, backing out of my garage in the morning. But I have also experienced the problem after my car has sat for shorter periods of time (3 hours)...and after my car has sat all evening at work. I've experienced the spongey feel going in reverse, as well as going forward.

**Celt03** · 09-20-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbeardsley

Interesting, could it only be the automatics that have the issue ?

No - because mine is a 5-speed manual transmission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdwizard

Haven't had any issues with mine, but I always let it idle down before moving, and I have a stick, so that requires a bit of RPM before it starts moving as well. I have a fairly steep, short driveway to back out of from my garage, so I would think I'd have noticed it by now. Perhaps when the car has more mileage on it?

My car has had less than 1200 miles put on it.

And for the record: where we live is only about 80 feet above sea level.

Bogie · 09-20-2007, 06:39 PM

I have a 2008 Redline bought three weeks ago and have experienced it once, but only after sitting overnight and after backing up as soon as I started the car. Brakes were mushy, and they pumped to a stop. I now let the vehicle idle about 20 seconds in the morn before engaging gear.

**Rustyknight** · 09-20-2007, 06:42 PM

I think based on what I am seeing there are quite few with the issue, to me I think a major problem will be that it does not seem that Saturn has adequetly described the brake issue, how is a dealer supposed to determine if a specific car they are looking at has a problem or if it has the brake "feature" described by Saturn.

It would seem that if the feature was that the car required more pedal force to stop for the first 30 seconds or a minute it might get listed as a chacteristic of the car, but if there is little or no stopping force available to the driver for 30 seconds or minute that could be a serious safety issue.

**Rustyknight** · 09-20-2007, 06:49 PM

Note it also looks like date of build does not effect which cars have this issue.

I think this might qualify as the kind of thing we should all try and help to get the attention of Saturn or the NTSB on, I for one do not have the problem, but I also know of many cars that have gotten "Reputations" for this type of thing that have hung over the cars for years.

hdwizard · 09-20-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celt03

No - because mine is a 5-speed manual transmission.

My car has had less than 1200 miles put on it.

And for the record: where we live is only about 80 feet above sea level.

Curioser and curioser. Here in the furnace, we're right about at sea level too, so I don't think that's an issue. It sounds as if some cars have a bigger problem than others. Much like the differential issue.

What really chaps my hide is that they're using this "Oh, its just this new brake booster" thing as an excuse to blow off customers with an obvious safety issue. I don't care if GM is telling them that some sponginess in the pedal is normal, the car not stopping when you need it to IS NOT! That should be fairly obvious to anyone, regardless of what some factory service bulletin says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustyknight

I think based on what I am seeing there are quite few with the issue, to me I think a major problem will be that it does not seem that Saturn has adequetly described the brake issue, how is a dealer supposed to determine if a specific car they are looking at has a problem or if it has the brake "feature" described by Saturn.

It would seem that if the feature was that the car required more pedal force to stop for the first 30 seconds or a minute it might get listed as a chacteristic of the car, but if there is little or no stopping force available to the driver for 30 seconds or minute that could be a serious safety issue.

Exactly. Worse yet, it seems that they aren't even really trying, but instead using GMs bulletin as an excuse to avoid checking for an actual problem. Why look for a problem when the factory is saying such behavior is normal? After all, it isn't their car, or family, or neighbor ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustyknight

I think this might qualify as the kind of thing we should all try and help to get the attention of Saturn or the NTSB on, I for one do not have the problem, but I also know of many cars that have gotten "Reputations" for this type of thing that have hung over the cars for years.

Agreed. It would be a shame to see Saturn's new flagship car become the next Edsel or Corvair just because they fail to see such an obvious problem, even when people are smacking them in the back of the head with it.

**Rail Jockey** · 09-22-2007, 12:15 AM

I live north of Salt Lake City, the altitude is about 4200 ft. The brake pedal is hard for the first 30 seconds or so after start up in the morning. The car was built on June 24 07. I haven't had an accident or near miss but I do have to push the pedal harder.

Yo Jeff · 09-22-2007, 12:36 AM

I have what is similar to what Celt03 explained; I just call it sponge brake. Every day I start the car and pull it out, I really have to stand on it to get it to stop. If I start it up and let it run while I'm doing something else, it is fine when I pull it out. I have it on my list when I take it into the dealer.

turbonailhead · 09-22-2007, 02:20 AM

Folks, part of the problem is people are describing different things. Spongy brake pedal is like it sounds-pressing on a sponge. It's a symptom of air in the brake lines. When you pump it repeatedly the air compresses and suddenly you get brakes. If you tell your service advisor you have a spongy pedal, they will bleed the brakes to remove the air and turn the car back to you and tell you it's fixed. NO-they won't LOOK for air in the lines. It's done by a machine that forces the fluid into the system under pressure.

I have an 08 and what I described to the Saturn engineer that called a couple of days ago, and what most people have described here is NOT a spongy brake pedal and is not likely to be air in the lines.

Engine vacuum is used to provide the power in a power brake system. Direct injected engines don't produce much/any vacuum. Diesel engines almost always have a supplementary vacuum pump somewhere to supply power brake boost, and vacuum for other accessories as well. Vacuum is used to move doors and stuff in many A/C systems, and it appears has some connection with the ESC system in this car as well.

People on here have said that cost containment saved some pennies by removing the vacuum pump from the 08's in favor of tying into another system. I have an 08. I have the same problem. I think this was a really DUMB move on GM engineering's part if it's true.

Upon start up, the car has MANUAL brakes. That means that your pedal travel is much farther before you begin to feel braking action AND it takes more force to apply the brakes as you are providing all the force into the braking system with your foot. Any car that you might drive with power brakes will feel the same way if something goes wrong with the power brake system. Higher pedal pressure, longer pedal travel--more effort to stop the car. LONGER stopping distance. This could also be the cause of the dealership accidents some people have reported-as well as some of the transporter problems.

I am at 2000 feet above sea level. I have the same problem at start up. The problem is WORSE if I am running the AC which makes sense. The vacuum reserve tank must be very small on this car, if it has one at all--not a lot of vacuum held in reserve. The engine MUST run to create vacuum whatever system the car uses, so having some of the minimal vacuum being created on start up used to open/close AC stuff makes even less available for braking.

I also have a gravel driveway so the ESC/Traction is probably working so that might be part of my problem-too much stuff trying to access too little vacuum. However, I have noticed this after sitting all day at work on pavement too.

I have found if I let the engine idle until it drops out of fast idle, then there seems to be enough vacuum to have the brakes operate predictably. Since I too live in the furnace, it doesn't take long to have the car idle normally on morning start up but it is a PIA that I don't have to deal with on any of the other cars, including the old ones. Waiting until I have reliable brakes before I turn on the AC, however, IS a big annoyance when it's 110. There are times when top down isn't possible.

Yes this is a problem. Yes-GM really should fix it because it is unpredictable and when you suddenly get power brakes , you end up stopping very suddenly as there is a huge difference in the car's behavior. The absolute worst scenario would be to have just enough vacuum

View Poll Results: Do you have any braking problems at startup
2008 Redline I have had some brake problems	58	50.88%
2008 Redline I have not had any brake problems	50	43.86%
2008 N/A I have had some brake problems	0	0%
2008 N/A I have not had any brake problems	6	5.26%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

09-20-2007, 03:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
Rustyknight Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 886 My Photos: (9)	2008 Redline Brake Poll Everyone I have been reading about a braking issue at startup in the 2008 Redlines, so if you own a 2008, please post to this thread and vote about the braking issue. My 2008 Redline was produced the second week of August, I have not experienced any of the startup braking issues that have been discussed. Just for informational purposes, I have never had any problems with my brakes at all on either my 2007 or 2008 __________________ Rusty Bluestone Sky Black Leather and Roof Serial #11805 - Traded 8-2-2007 Midnight Blue RL Black Leather and Roof Serial #05941 - Picked Up 8-20-2007 What is the source of your user name: http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8236

09-20-2007, 03:34 PM	#2 (permalink)
SKY 4 ME First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 384 My Photos: (0)	My 2008 RL does have the brake issue every morning at start up when I go to back out of my garage. I've seen the notice about high altitudes, sitting several days etc. I don't consider Ohio to be high altitude, and it happens if I let it sit overnight. I don't consider that an excessively long time to sit unused, as I figure most people do sleep 5-8 hours each night. I'm used to it now, but it was a real surprise at first, to say the least. It really should be addressed by Saturn/GM. SKY 4 ME __________________ SKY 4 ME 2008 Red Line Chili Pepper Red / Black/Red Interior Auto Spoiler Chrome Wheels Single Disc Monsoon XM Deposit 3/10/2007 Order number 6/28/2007 Delivered 8/4/2007 MSRP + GM Employee discount UPShield Little Chromies Stubby antenna

09-20-2007, 03:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
mbeardsley Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Allen, Texas (just north of Dallas) Posts: 801 My Photos: (6)	My 2008 redline does have the brake issue, but it does not seem to be as extreme as some others have reported. I never have trouble "stopping the car", but I can feel a difference in the brake response. I mostly notice it when leaving my garage in the morning, after the car has been sitting overnight. I am near Dallas, Texas...which cannot be considered as "high altitude". __________________ 2008 Red/Red/Redline Auto, Single Monsoon, Spoiler Deposit Placed 05/26/07 Order Number Received 06/08/07 Built 07/20/07 Delivered 08/07/07

09-20-2007, 04:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
Celt03 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,573 My Photos: (6)	I usually let the car warm up and I ALWAYS leave it in neutral and emergency brake on when I park it in the garage. Once I went to back the car out of our garage just to park in the driveway. As such, I did not let it idle for as long as I normally would. I exit the garage slowly because our driveway has a slight but not sharp incline and the driveway sits at an angle in comparison to the garage. I went to brake and there was NOTHING even though I fully depressed the brake pedal!! I quickly threw the car into neutral and grabbed the emergency brake just in time to keep from rolling out into the street. (FYI - my driveway is long enough that when my SKY is parked outside, another one or two vehicles can park behind me.) This was in the morning and neighborhood children are walking & biking past my house to head to school. Understandably - I was upset. I agree that this is ridiculous that one should have to make sure that the car idles for a while to build up a full vacuum. This is NOT normal and should not be. Someone is going to get hurt & GM needs to fix this before they get sued. And we are at LOW altitude. __________________ "Saffyre" 2008 Midnight Blue RL/Black/Black Leather / 5-spd w/Spoiler Magnaflow 3" Quad tip / Chrome Wheels / On Star / 6 CD XM Monsoon / Splash Guards / GT Antenna / WindRestrictor V2 www.imsaturn.com/profile/Celt

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09-20-2007, 04:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
lostcause Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,250 My Photos: (0)	I haven't experienced the problem but it could be for a couple of reasons. One, I'm in miami so I'm right at sea level. Two, I don't park on a hill so to get the car moving I have to step on the gas which could cause the vaccum to build up. I tried to make the problem happen on purpose the other day but I think I did it wrong. Plus, I like to let the car idle until the idle speed drops to normal before moving it.

09-20-2007, 04:45 PM	#6 (permalink)
SallySky Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Posts: 147 My Photos: (0)	I live in MD. My garage sits on fairly steep incline. I back out every morning and have not noticed any difference in braking. __________________ 2008 RL Bluestone/Tan/Black Leather "Sally" "SKY4JOY" License Plate 5 Speed Spoiler Chrome 18" Wheels Stubby Custom Etched Windscreen Monsoon 6 CD w/XM PAL 3rd Brake Light Decal Painted Calipers Silver Marker Bulbs RPI GT exhaust

09-20-2007, 05:11 PM	#7 (permalink)
StBartsSky Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sarasota, Fl Posts: 14 My Photos: (0)	So far, no problems here either and sometimes the car actually sits for a few days without moving. __________________ You can rest when you're dead.

09-20-2007, 05:13 PM	#8 (permalink)
hdwizard Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 234 My Photos: (0)	Haven't had any issues with mine, but I always let it idle down before moving, and I have a stick, so that requires a bit of RPM before it starts moving as well. I have a fairly steep, short driveway to back out of from my garage, so I would think I'd have noticed it by now. Perhaps when the car has more mileage on it? Not really willing to test it by throwing caution to the wind and sailing right out as soon as the engine is lit, as there are a lot of kids in my neighborhood too. Maybe someday ... With all that said, I still think GM needs to do something. Even if it's only one out of fifty cars, it's still a safety hazard. __________________ 2008 Red Line "Shadowfax" Factory Triple Black w/Leather 5 speed stick LSD Chrome rims Single disc Monsoon w/XM Aftermarket Stubby antenna, window tint, dual horn, Windrestrictor V2

09-20-2007, 05:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ron Lebert Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 32 My Photos: (0)	Problems I've had my 08 R/L since the 23rd of Aug. The only problem I had was a low battery, wich I charged. other than that it has been a great car to drive. Both my wife and I love it.

09-20-2007, 06:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
mbeardsley Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Allen, Texas (just north of Dallas) Posts: 801 My Photos: (6)	Interesting, could it only be the automatics that have the issue ? __________________ 2008 Red/Red/Redline Auto, Single Monsoon, Spoiler Deposit Placed 05/26/07 Order Number Received 06/08/07 Built 07/20/07 Delivered 08/07/07

09-20-2007, 06:07 PM	#11 (permalink)
williamt2 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 16 My Photos: (0)	My Car is an 08 Solstice GXP and I have the same problem. Dealer says is normal, anti lock test. Good Luck and God Bless, Bill Ivins

09-20-2007, 06:22 PM	#12 (permalink)
nscrbug First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago burbs Posts: 1,421 My Photos: (6)	My 08 RL (automatic) has the brake issue upon start-up. I'm guessing my car was built in early August (delivered to dealer on 8/22). I don't live in a high-altitude city, and our driveway is completely flat. I experience this problem almost on a daily basis, backing out of my garage in the morning. But I have also experienced the problem after my car has sat for shorter periods of time (3 hours)...and after my car has sat all evening at work. I've experienced the spongey feel going in reverse, as well as going forward. __________________ Linda 2008 RL Delivered - 08/25/2007 Silver Pearl/Black Cloth Polished Alloys Automatic Monsoon 1 disc

09-20-2007, 06:39 PM	#14 (permalink)
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Northern, VA Posts: 2,476 My Photos: (0)	I have a 2008 Redline bought three weeks ago and have experienced it once, but only after sitting overnight and after backing up as soon as I started the car. Brakes were mushy, and they pumped to a stop. I now let the vehicle idle about 20 seconds in the morn before engaging gear.

09-20-2007, 06:42 PM	#15 (permalink)
Rustyknight Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 886 My Photos: (9)	I think based on what I am seeing there are quite few with the issue, to me I think a major problem will be that it does not seem that Saturn has adequetly described the brake issue, how is a dealer supposed to determine if a specific car they are looking at has a problem or if it has the brake "feature" described by Saturn. It would seem that if the feature was that the car required more pedal force to stop for the first 30 seconds or a minute it might get listed as a chacteristic of the car, but if there is little or no stopping force available to the driver for 30 seconds or minute that could be a serious safety issue. __________________ Rusty Bluestone Sky Black Leather and Roof Serial #11805 - Traded 8-2-2007 Midnight Blue RL Black Leather and Roof Serial #05941 - Picked Up 8-20-2007 What is the source of your user name: http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8236

09-20-2007, 06:49 PM	#16 (permalink)
Rustyknight Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 886 My Photos: (9)	Note it also looks like date of build does not effect which cars have this issue. I think this might qualify as the kind of thing we should all try and help to get the attention of Saturn or the NTSB on, I for one do not have the problem, but I also know of many cars that have gotten "Reputations" for this type of thing that have hung over the cars for years. __________________ Rusty Bluestone Sky Black Leather and Roof Serial #11805 - Traded 8-2-2007 Midnight Blue RL Black Leather and Roof Serial #05941 - Picked Up 8-20-2007 What is the source of your user name: http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8236

09-22-2007, 12:15 AM	#18 (permalink)
Rail Jockey Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Syracuse, Utah Posts: 245 My Photos: (0)	I live north of Salt Lake City, the altitude is about 4200 ft. The brake pedal is hard for the first 30 seconds or so after start up in the morning. The car was built on June 24 07. I haven't had an accident or near miss but I do have to push the pedal harder. __________________ Wait list 9/9/06 ordered 6/02/07 Born 6/24/07 Adopted 7/26/07 2008 Midnight Blue Red Line Black/Tan Chrome Wheels 3 Pedals Monsoon XM V2 Wind Restrictor Stubby Antenna Salt Lake City Roadsters http://www.saltlakeroadsters.com/ Last edited by Rail Jockey : 01-05-2008 at 02:20 PM.

09-22-2007, 12:36 AM	#19 (permalink)
Yo Jeff Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Parma, Ohio (Cleveland) Posts: 45 My Photos: (0)	I have what is similar to what Celt03 explained; I just call it sponge brake. Every day I start the car and pull it out, I really have to stand on it to get it to stop. If I start it up and let it run while I'm doing something else, it is fine when I pull it out. I have it on my list when I take it into the dealer. __________________ 2008 SKY Redline (Auto) Black Onyx / Interior Black&Red 18" Chrome / Monsoon / Spoiler Magna Flow Fujita CAI Bad Boy Air Horn 2008 SKY VUE Redline (Awesome SUV)