2008 Redline Brake Poll

[empirekevin]

After a few days with the car now, if I let mine idle a few seconds, the brakes are fine. If I crank it cold and try to move it right away, they dont work. Must have to build pressure in the lines.

[samunoz1]

I have an 08 RL and live in NJ. "Normal" elevation. When pulling out of my garage the breaks have to really be stomped on to make it stop quickly. I really fear being unable to stop in time if some kid runs across my driveway as I am coming out in my Sky.

The problem is alleviated with letting the car warm up for about a minute. This is my sixth car and I have never had this problem. It is unfortunate.

[trusno1]

I also have the brake problem on my 08 ,I brought the vehicle back into Saturn and told them that after vehicle sits for awhile there is a hard pedal and the vehicle is practically instopable. They contact me and they stated they infact experience the problem and would check for a vacume leak. They then presented me with a Saturn bulletin stating that the braking delay was engineered that way for this particular vehicle, but my problem goes further I purchase mine in late July in the State of NJ I live in the Stae of PA aprox. one hour and ten minutes from the dealership . The car was not inspected due to the fact that it would be registered in PA , Heres where the problem begins I proceeded to try to obtain an inspection sticker for my vehicle at the local repair shop i left vehicle there overnite to be worked on in the morning. That morning i was contacted by the mechanic that the vehicle could not pass inspection because of the hard pedal that he experience which lasted close to 60 seconds...He contacted the The State regarding the problem and they also stated that vehicle cannot pass..Here i was left with a vehicle that could not pass inspection ...I contacted Saturn customer service and i told them that the vehicle was not inspectable and could not be driven legally due to the brake pressure issue, I finally got their attention i was told to bring vehicle back this passed thursday to verify brake issue , and to show them the fail notice for inspection. The mechaic at the dealership of purchase stated that the vehicle was engineered with this delay and it is normal up to Two minutes to have this hard brake pedal, and he stated to pickup the vehicle , I told him there is no way I will pickup that vehicle without the problem corrected so i could obtain a valid inspectionn sticker...I told him that my vehicle is kept in a garage that hold three other vehicles and there is no way i am sitting in a garage breathing carbon monxide till this vehicle has brakes...I proceede to contact Saturn CS and my rep was not in , I made them aware how i was treated by the dealership mechanic and that he demanded his loaner back. I expect to hear from her on Monday regarding this issue...I will update you as they progress

[DuDsTeR]

I just got my auto FL this past Friday and I have the problem. If I sit for about 30 seconds and wait for the rev limiter to get below one and back out its fine but this morning I forgot because I was in a hurry to get to school and I started backing out (I live in an apartment complex) and a car started coming and I could not brake so i kept reversing and turning, hit the brake pedal and shifted to drive and started driving. By the time i hit the incline to get out of my street, I had my brakes working but I almost had a heart attack.

[KittenT]

Whew! Good to see this thread...I've had this issue a couple times and thought it was just me. It's only happened when I initially start it up and am backing out of the driveway--no response from the brakes, almost like I have to stand on it to get any response. So, solution? Let it idle a bit or what?

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by KittenT

So, solution? Let it idle a bit or what?

Yes.

I've found 20 seconds seems to do the trick.

If my top is up, I'll pop trunk before I get in.
Start car.
Roll windows down.
Pop top release.
Throw top back.
Exit car.
Stow top.
Close Trunk.
Back in car.
Stow wallet in seat pocket.
Buckle up.
Retrieve sunglasses.
Check/set radio.
Check gauges (fuel..lol...and check for anything ajar)
Check mirrors for proper alignment.
Stow tie (stuff in shirt)
Disengage parking brake.
Check mirrors for obstacles.
Swivel head to check.
<All above gives plenty of time for brake pressure to build>
Put in reverse.....

[Patientsky]

Mine has the same problem all the rest are having with the 08 brakes, Now I let mine idle untill it idles down, about 15 to 20 seconds and then I back out of the garage, brakes work fine.

I dont expect this issue will be fixed untill someone is seriously hurt or killed.
Sorry to say!

[samunoz1]

I was told by a friend that works at Blue Book that this will lower 08 Sky resale value ... thats just great.

[silch52]

We got our 2008 Sky Redline at the end of July. About a month later I noticed the "spongy" brake problem being described here. It happens when the car has just been started up and I put it into reverse. Doesn't seem to matter if it's not been driven for a few days or for just a few hours. When I put my foot on the brakes I have to push down all the way to try to get the car to stop -- it seems like the anti-lock system is trying to work -- I get the same sensation I do on my BMW when I try to brake on ice in the winter. But obvioulsy it's not winter yet and I'm only trying to back out of a dry parking space -- so there is definitely a problem with the brakes which Saturn / GM need to address. p.s. we are in the Chicago area so it's not a high altitude issue.

[mrdave]

We got our Sky 08 in September, after sales person failed to call back regarding the problem, we took it in and service refuses to do anything about the lack of power brakes during startup - claims there's a tech note on it and it's by design.

Dealer has been notified we won't pickup the car until the problem is fixed.

Anyone doing anything to coordinate pressure on Saturn to fix this problem? From reading the thread it's clear this isn't just an isolated problem it's pretty wide spread with the 08 model.

I've lost track of how many car's I have started up after sitting for a few hours and never ever have seen this before....

[1Man1Sky]

Yeah, I got that problem too. My car is supposed to go in for some cosmetic issues and I've asked them to look at the brakes. starnge that not everyone has this probalem, only a few. So, I have to wonder how is it by design? does that mean that cars that do not have this "design" are broken?

[mrdave]

So far there are a few compaints regarding this issue on the NHTSA (National Highway Transportation Saftey Administration) for this issue. I have filed my complaint there and I would recommend if your having the problem you do the same. Anyone else report there's anywhere?

See the link here http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm

My understanding of "By Design" happens because Saturn issued a Tech Note which from what the dealer says "Prevents us from doing anything"

My theory if it was "By Design" it would have been listed as a feature on the window Sticker....so I could have evaluated it when I bought the car! Maybe they list it in the Saftey section with the other saftey features.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by mrdave

Dealer has been notified we won't pickup the car until the problem is fixed.

Be prepared for a long wait.

I know of nothing a tech or dealer can do to fix this "design" problem. There is nothing to adjust. Nothing to "fix". Nothing to "repair". This appears to be an ENGINEERING problem that requires an ENGINEERING change.

The root problem appears to be NO AUXILIARY vaccum pump. This was a DESIGN DECISION. It's not there. Engineered out of the model.

How can it be fixed. Well, Saturn can engineer the Auxiliary pump back into the design as an Engineering "fix". But that will likely take some real engineering work. Where/how is it mounted? Tap into power. Couple into Vacuum. There may be some computer software changes for diagnostics and modification to the hydraulic assist. There are a wide array of true engineering decisions that need to be made, a solution generated, and the fix communicated to the dealers and techs. This is not the realm of a tech working for a dealer on a production automobile.

It is possible a tech, in conjunction with engineering, might come up with an "on the fly" solution. And it might work. In this case, they will be using YOUR CAR as a guinea pig. "Let's put this here....ooops...move it over here. What about those holes we just drilled? Meh. OK, that's better. Splice this line...nope..no good. OK...repair the splice and pull it from over here. How do we route the vacuum hose. All done. Damn, it rattles too much. OK, put some sound proofing here...and glue it...hell....duct tape it. Much better. What's that smell? Damn, you taped it to the manifold...idiot. Pull it off...sticky. Oh well, it'll all melt off....eventually. Got any of the heat resistant adhesives? Yeah, but EPA says if we use more than 2 oz we have to do a bunch of environmental impact paperwork. OK, let's use ONLY 2 Oz. What if 2 oz isn't enough? Will it last more than 36 months? Probably..OK go for it.

There you go. Your brakes work better now. You've got some extra holes in your car, your manifold has melted glue on it, you have some lose wires with electrical tape on them, and it will all fall apart shortly after your warranty expires.

[mrdave]

Originally Posted by Bogie

Be prepared for a long wait.

I know of nothing a tech or dealer can do to fix this "design" problem. There is nothing to adjust. Nothing to "fix". Nothing to "repair". This appears to be an ENGINEERING problem that requires an ENGINEERING change.

I'm very patient and determined.

From reading everyone's thoughts and the Tech article they faxed is not just a stick a little tape on to fix the problem. Like you said it would appear to be an engineering change which is exactly why they are sticking to their tech note.

First step is to get Saturn to recongize it as a problem, current tech article makes it clear their position is it's working as designed. That doesn't mean the design is right and consistent with all the other new cars being sold, or expectation created by Saturn for anyone buying a sky.

I can't stress enough if you are having the problem, report it via the link above as well as through Saturns 800# - 800-553-6000

[Bogie]

By the way, I'm an engineer. I'll give you some insight into the likely logic and decision that lead to this "design".

The RL has a hydraulic brake boost that is integrated as part of the Electronic Stability Control (ESC). It is also integrated into the normal braking system by kicking into action if the normal brake vacuum is used up or not available. Under normal brake conditions, if you lose a bit of vacuum, the boost can bring the brake performance back up to nominal by making up for the lack of vacuum. However, the assist cannot make up for NO vacuum.

What I think happened is engineers looked at the brake system and saw THREE somewhat overlapping braking entities:

1. Normal vacuum brake.
2. Auxiliary brake.
3. Hydraulic assist (for the ESC).

Someone probably noted "Why do we need th Auxiliary vacuum pump (which is needed only for a few seconds after startup) when we have a hydraulic assist, the main purpose to operate when the vehicle has low or no vacuum"? So the decision was made to dump the Auxiliary and rely on the Hydraulic assist.

This is pure conjecture, but I can easily see how the engineers could move down that path.

[ScottyB]

I have an 08 and none of those issues. Only break issue was a high pitch squeal just prior to stopping. Dealership swapped break pads and it seems to be working. They did say I was the first Sky they saw this on.

[ChgoBlues]

Originally Posted by Patientsky

Mine has the same problem all the rest are having with the 08 brakes, Now I let mine idle untill it idles down, about 15 to 20 seconds and then I back out of the garage, brakes work fine.

I dont expect this issue will be fixed untill someone is seriously hurt or killed.
Sorry to say!

Why wouldn't you let the car idle down anyway before moving it? This is when all the lubrication of the engine parts occur. If what everyone is experiencing is immediately after starting the car and moving it, I can see why I may have not had this issue. I always let an engine idle down after startup, old school I guess. If you start and go, thats very hard on an engine and there is no pressure for the brake system so that could be why you have 'no brakes'.

[KentuckySky]

Originally Posted by ChgoBlues

Why wouldn't you let the car idle down anyway before moving it?

Sometimes it's just not possible. Guess I learned the hard way. This is what happened to me for being late to work one day and not "idling down" first...

Good thing I was in my driveway and it was just a tree....

[1Man1Sky]

Well, there's one accident due to the "by design" brakes. But just remember, your brakes were designed to work like that. Everyone whose brakes work when first starting the car actually have malfunctioning brakes because, as Saturn states, the mooshy brakes are by design and supposed to be like that.

Thank GOD there was no one behind you. Hopefully no one has to get hurt because of this before GM fixes it.

I called the number above and posted my concerns. I will also visit the website above and post a concern there as well.

[Gerry]

My brakes work just fine. The pedal is hard at startup, but goes to normal power assist after around 20 seconds. I have some boost at around 10 seconds, but it's not significantly more boosted than from startup. The car still stops fine with the hard pedal, just takes more leg power to do it.

It's not a problem for me since I follow a pretty regular routing with all my cars: Get in, start car, fasten seatbelt, close door, and go. By the time I do these things, I have allowed my engine oil to fully flow through the engine and for the idle to stabilize a bit. For the Sky, it also allows the brakes to function under full boost before I move the car.