2008 Redline Brake Poll - Page 3

Tom13yearsaturntech · 10-31-2007, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Man1Sky

That's fine and dandy, if you know about it. But, no one told me that I wouldn't have brakes when I drove off the lot and that I need to wait 20 seconds for it to be safe to drive.

Sorry, and with all due respect, your comments are very asinine to me. to say this is normal and not dangerous is irresponsible. I'd like to know what other cars do this...because I've never heard of it before.

By the way, does the manual say you have to wait 20 seconds to let the brakes "warm up"? Just curiuos.

This is one of those times where your salesperson dropped the ball and didn't explain some of the special features of your Sky. There is also a warning tag that is supposed to be affixed to the vehicle at the pre-delivery inspection explaining the brake system operation.

Tom

mbeardsley · 10-31-2007, 07:34 PM

Well, my salesperson didn't drop the ball...he threw it for an interception.

When I picked up my car, he simply tossed me the keys and said "I'll go over the car with you tomorrow, can you bring it back in then?"

So when I returned the next day (at the time he suggested), I found out it was his day off!

It's a good thing I had done my research here first...

Gerry · 10-31-2007, 07:40 PM

I hope you didn't give him a good review on the survey. That's no way to treat a customer.

Even though my sales rep knew that I knew a lot about the car, he still took the time to go over every detail (including the admonition not to close the hood with the doors open) to make absolutely sure I knew enough not to hurt the car or myself.

ChgoBlues · 10-31-2007, 11:10 PM

[quote=1Man1Sky;256970]And we're not talking about being in -10 degree weather. This when it's 70 degrees outside.
QUOTE]

I know, I was using it as an example. I realize this situation is occuring at all temps. I was trying to make a point about not starting and going after the key is released from starting.

Nova-Exarch · 10-31-2007, 11:27 PM

I want to clarify my response...

I said no problems.

I have never had troubles getting the car to stop.

However, it has been a bit odd at times.

99% of the time everything is fine. 99% of the time I slow down as needed and downshift as I come to a stop. Then I brake, forcefully if needed (not too hard) as I come to a stop. It is generally never spongy or weak.

The 1% of the time when it is "OH CRAP!" stopping is a different story. The pedal jumps and pulsates and I can feel the ABS working. There is for sure a lot of feedback to our brake pedal. :P

Sometimes if it is a long stopping action or if I do start rolling within the first 5 seconds of starting the car, I can feel the system compensating for a lack of normal pressure. Giving the gas one good rev is usually enough to build up the pressure though so that by the stop sign at the end of my block the brakes are normal and strong.

So, aside from the pulsating, I'm fairly happy with the stock brakes.

I had a "OH CRAP!" moment the other day... driver in front of me elected to not go on through a yellow left turn arrow, slamming on her brakes when I knew good and well we could have both made it through. Anyway... I was accelerating hard to make it through the light because I was still far behind after letting the big ol SUV pull out in front of me in the first place...

I was very happy to be in the agile Sky instead of my van.

Although maybe the van would not have been a problem anyway since I would not have been able to build up any speed anyway.

How's that fer splainin'?

RedlineBlue · 10-31-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Brake vacuum operation was changed in early 2008 models, GM has since gone back to the 2007 design. GM did this to cut costs and just tap into the ABS pump. Complain and maybe they can get you the 2007 or brand new 2008 design change. I never like to see companies cut costs in the brakes department.

I saw this quote in another thread that lead me to believe this problem was fixed by adding a pump back in that was removed. This isn't true? They are still being made with this problem?

RedlineBlue

**Rustyknight** · 11-01-2007, 12:01 AM

they must still be having somekind of intermittent quality problem, since they vrake problem cars are in a dead heat with the no problem cars.

Rob the Elder · 11-01-2007, 10:49 AM

So far we have not experienced this problem. But I am enjoying reading through the thread.

Some thoughts for your consideration.

The Sky is different from just about every other car you may have driven. The direct injection motor brings with it a lot of changes other than just a lot of HP for the cubic inches. One of them is the way it creates and manages vacume. Its a fact of life that the engineers have to live with and design around. In addition, the combination of ABS, traction control and stability control on the car has a huge impact on how the braking system thinks and functions. My 68 GTO had vacume assist power brakes and when there was no vacume the brakes were very hard. Generally the vacume system retained enough reserve for two stops plus a little. So when I came home late at night and turned the motor off to glide into the driveway at home, I knew I could stop normally. However, being a 4 speed, I started it with my foot on the brake. A few seconds after startup, the pedal pushed up against my foot as vacume increased until it was at normal height. But it always worked.

Not having experienced the problem myself I cant really speak from personal experience however the design has to allow for engine off breaking. All the safety engineers I have known would never let you get away without providing for a blown motor at speed. Unless somehow the design interrupts the path of hydraulic force from the master to the slave cylindars, there should be force transfer under any and all conditions. I can see that the force required to stop under engine out conditions must be very high but it would be nice to see some engineering that describes the unboosted path.

As to pumping up the oil pressure. . . . I have read studies and tests that state that the vast majority of wear in an internal combustion motor occurs during the first 45 - 90 degrees of rotation of the crank. This is when there is essentially zero oil pressure in the main bearings and metal to metal contact is possible. What prevents this contact and associated wear is the film of lubricant left in the spaces between the bearing surfaces as the motor last stopped operation. One of the great advantages of synthetic oil as we use in our ecotec motors is its film strength. Mobile 1 has been tested many times and one of its strengths is its ability to maintain a very good film of lubricant to inhibit or prevent wear on start. The point is that with synthetic oil you dont get wear and dont need to wait for oil to circulate.

Another thought that comes to mind that may bear on why this "problem" is experienced by some owners but not others, or under some conditions and not others. It would be interesting to capture data on vacume decay over time on cars that do and dont have the problem. I suspect that we might find that cars that always have the problem loose vacume a lot faster than cars that dont have the problem. It may be as simple as slight leaks in some vacume systems that cause them to loose vacume rather than retain it over night, and contribute to increased times to build vacume upon starting.

Finally, just because the factory says its normal and tells the dealers not to fix it does not mean that they are not working on design changes. I suspect that they are working on various fixes. The simplest fix would be a software fix that monitored the vacume or used a count down timer to let the driver know when its safe for the car to be moved. Or, alternatively the might do a software update that changes how the brake management system functions. For example, it might disable actions that require bleeding off vacume or modify how the traction control and stability control system function for the critical first two or three minutes.

I might offer that the reason the device formerly known as the emergency brake is so close to hand is so you can use it to stop. When I took my driving test, we had to start on a hill using the emergency brake to hold the car steady on the hill while engaging the clutch. They never should have changed the name to parking brake in my opinion.

The emergency / parking brake is connected via cables to the rear brakes and will allways work.

mrdave · 11-01-2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerry

Again, the brakes do work on start up. It takes more pedal effort to do it. If they didn't work, the pedal would go to the floor. If you refuse to let the engine run for 10-15 seconds before roaring off into traffic, then you're going to get a nice surprise.

Let's just assume that as an owner you were to accept that as being "Normal" like Saturn claims (even though if you tried 20 other cars they don't have this "Normal" problem) think about this scenario...

You go to a place that has valet parking...Car sits for a few hours (which yes, can too cause this to happen, happens every day for me at work when I drove the car)

Valet guy gets in car - have you ever seen a valet person wait 15 seconds before moving - never...remember these are the guys running to the car. Backs up...goes for the brakes...Opps...hits car or person

That same scenario can play out many different ways where even if you knew about the problem, can't help others that might drive your car

ChgoBlues · 11-01-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob the Elder

So far we have not experienced this problem. But I am enjoying reading through the thread.

Some thoughts for your consideration.

The emergency / parking brake is connected via cables to the rear brakes and will allways work.

Some good thoughts and input Rob. And it will work providing it hasnt rusted away and snaps the minute you pull it

KittenT · 11-01-2007, 07:43 PM

It's worse on mine when the car is first started in the morning. After I initally drive it, park and go out again a little later it still does it but drops idle faster. Taking off right away is just from habit, but I've been trying to change that. Revving it seems to speed up the idle drop after the initial run, but it's probably me just killing time.

It's real scary when you do forget--Last week I started backing out, put it back in drive to pull back in the driveway and almost rear ended our motorcycle. Talk about heart attack!

SkyMarshall · 11-01-2007, 08:09 PM

I think its out right dangerous & Saturn should immediatly recall these cars for this.
It appears top be lack of vacuum in the power brake. Mildly rev the eng. a few times and you get your brakes a little faster, cold out the garage.

34k for a car with crappy brakes? My 98 nissan pickup has better brakes. This is supposed to be a sports car.

Bogie · 11-01-2007, 08:12 PM

A note about "normal".

Normal does not mean "OK".
Normal does not mean "safe".
Normal does not mean "correct"

A gun is operating "normally" when the trigger is pulled, the hammer falls, and a bullet explodes out of the barrel at lethal speed. If someone happens to be standing along the path of this bullet, they will get hurt and possibly die. The gun is WORKING NORMALLY.

Granted, our brakes are not a gun. But when it comes to discussion of problems like this it is important to focus on the problem and not get wrapped up in the nomenclature. DON'T CHALLENGE GM on whether the brakes are working "normally". Instead, the challenge should be that the NORMAL operation is unsafe. Focus on the unsafe part, not the nomenclature.

mrdave · 11-01-2007, 08:23 PM

Couldn't agree more SkyMarshall...but it will take everyone getting on record - there are at least 28 people with the problem on this forum, and from the numbers thats about 50% of the skyline owners that took the survey...that's a pretty high number if you ask me. Let's all home they stand up and be counted.

Oh, and if you do file the complaint with Saturn, don't be discouraged when they call you with a 1-2 minute prepared speech about how important saftey is to them and thanks for letting them have a chance to look into it, and how they talked ot the dealer and their engineers and after they went to great lengths they determined that there's no issue. I actually stopped the manager 30 seconds in to ask if it was a prepared remarks she was reading.

Oh and don't be surprised if they paraphrase your problem as "Soft brake pedal" despite what you tell them. My guess is they are coached on that response.

My favorite was when they said it was working as designed and I said what exactly is that design,,,"oh what you car is doing" - Please describe that in detail I don't understand what you mean "I means exactly that, working as designed"

May I speak to a manager - "No your next step is to write a letter to the president of GM" - I understand that but can I speak to your manager , "I've advised you of your next step"....Click..line dead

Certified notice sent to Saturn today.

Great customer service, obviously well trained(as a roadblock)!

RedlineBlue · 11-01-2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Brake vacuum operation was changed in early 2008 models, GM has since gone back to the 2007 design.

Just asking my question again. Is the above quote true or not?

ChgoBlues · 11-01-2007, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogie

A note about "normal".

Normal does not mean "OK".
Normal does not mean "safe".
Normal does not mean "correct"

A gun is operating "normally" when the trigger is pulled, the hammer falls, and a bullet explodes out of the barrel at lethal speed. If someone happens to be standing along the path of this bullet, they will get hurt and possibly die. The gun is WORKING NORMALLY.

Granted, our brakes are not a gun. But when it comes to discussion of problems like this it is important to focus on the problem and not get wrapped up in the nomenclature. DON'T CHALLENGE GM on whether the brakes are working "normally". Instead, the challenge should be that the NORMAL operation is unsafe. Focus on the unsafe part, not the nomenclature.

THANK YOU

or as the techs have to term it, operating as designed. As it was said earlier, it might not be right but the way it was designed, its operating normally.

ChgoBlues · 11-01-2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdave

My favorite was when they said it was working as designed and I said what exactly is that design,,,"oh what you car is doing" - Please describe that in detail I don't understand what you mean "I means exactly that, working as designed"

This 'soft pedal' or as 50% of those that answered the survey call it, 'no brakes', is a characteristic of the system as the engineers designed it. Whether you agree with the design, how it operates, or what the dealer tells you, this is what Saturn, GM or any manufacturor will say regarding issues like these. The issue of it being a correct or safe design is another matter, to which the she advised you what the next level to take it to is, Jill.

If they have a prompted response, then Saturn is fully aware of it and hopefully working on a solution. It will NOT be a fast or easy one so its going to take a bit of faith and patience for owners. If you really have an issue with the brakes then I suggest you continue moving up the ladder until you are satisfied with the answers or resolution to the situation or get rid of the car. To re-engineer a brake system isn't quick or cheap, especially if you have to deal with the potential retrofit or correction for vehicles built a certain way.

Having owned Saturns since 1994, working for a facility for 7 years, I personally think they probably have gotten plenty of comments on the issue and are actively working on a solution. Remember, Kappas are/were Bob Lutz's baby and last thing he'll want is a tarnished rep about a pet project. Its not only Saturn owners but Pontiac owners that are going to have this concern. GM will not want to see this car line tank. I have seen Saturn take the bull by the horns and do a product campaign to correct an issue on vehicles in the past. They had to do it on the Ion Red Lines, partly because it was a fuel line issue, but they found out about it, found a solution and issued the campaign. They did it with the 00-02 L-Series with the lamp assemblies due to the brake light bulbs constantly going out and melting the contacts. They redesigned the brake bulb contacts and assemblies and issued a recall. So I would say yes contact Saturn, log the complaint, it will only help the situation but have patience and some understanding that you are not the only one experiencing the issue. I left my job at Saturn for this exact reason, people yelling and screaming like they were the only ones with a problem and taking it out on me. There is only so much a person in customer service can do and if you expect immediate gratification, sorry, it rarely can be done.

As JohnD found with Spirit, sometimes being a nice guy really does get you farther. Yelling and pissing people off will only make them NOT want to help or assist you even more. Just my

since I've been on the other side of the counter from those with issues on their cars.

mrdave · 11-01-2007, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChgoBlues

So I would say yes contact Saturn, log the complaint, it will only help the situation but have patience and some understanding that you are not the only one experiencing the issue. I left my job at Saturn for this exact reason, people yelling and screaming like they were the only ones with a problem and taking it out on me.

Chgo...Couldn't agree more no need to yell, but at the same time, patience comes when they acknowledge there's an issue.

I also couldn't agree more that "by design" doesn't make it a "good design" or the "right design", or a "safe design". But if it is 'by design" its different enough from all the other cars that it is a material fact should be disclosed by the sales people. But....those type of disclosures don't sell cars...now do they..

And to your point about end goal, my goal is simple car fixed or car returned, either is fine

I got the car to have fun and enjoy...

View Poll Results: Do you have any braking problems at startup
2008 Redline I have had some brake problems	58	50.88%
2008 Redline I have not had any brake problems	50	43.86%
2008 N/A I have had some brake problems	0	0%
2008 N/A I have not had any brake problems	6	5.26%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

10-31-2007, 07:34 PM	#62 (permalink)
mbeardsley Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Allen, Texas (just north of Dallas) Posts: 801 My Photos: (6)	Well, my salesperson didn't drop the ball...he threw it for an interception. When I picked up my car, he simply tossed me the keys and said "I'll go over the car with you tomorrow, can you bring it back in then?" So when I returned the next day (at the time he suggested), I found out it was his day off! It's a good thing I had done my research here first... __________________ 2008 Red/Red/Redline Auto, Single Monsoon, Spoiler Deposit Placed 05/26/07 Order Number Received 06/08/07 Built 07/20/07 Delivered 08/07/07

10-31-2007, 07:40 PM	#63 (permalink)
Gerry Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 568 My Photos: (0)	I hope you didn't give him a good review on the survey. That's no way to treat a customer. Even though my sales rep knew that I knew a lot about the car, he still took the time to go over every detail (including the admonition not to close the hood with the doors open) to make absolutely sure I knew enough not to hurt the car or myself. __________________ '08 Silver Pearl Red Line delivered 5 Oct '07 Three pedals Red leather Monsoon Chrome rims Spoiler

10-31-2007, 11:10 PM	#64 (permalink)
ChgoBlues Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 592 My Photos: (6)	[quote=1Man1Sky;256970]And we're not talking about being in -10 degree weather. This when it's 70 degrees outside. QUOTE] I know, I was using it as an example. I realize this situation is occuring at all temps. I was trying to make a point about not starting and going after the key is released from starting. __________________ 2008 Sky Red Line Midnight Blue/Black/5 spd Splash Guards Opel Antenna 2006 Ion Red Line Pacific Blue/Black/5 spd Stage 2/Extrudehone Exh Manifold Front Grille imSaturn:http://www.imsaturn.com/profile/Rob41

11-01-2007, 12:01 AM	#67 (permalink)
Rustyknight Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 886 My Photos: (9)	they must still be having somekind of intermittent quality problem, since they vrake problem cars are in a dead heat with the no problem cars. __________________ Rusty Bluestone Sky Black Leather and Roof Serial #11805 - Traded 8-2-2007 Midnight Blue RL Black Leather and Roof Serial #05941 - Picked Up 8-20-2007 What is the source of your user name: http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8236

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10-31-2007, 11:27 PM	#65 (permalink)
Nova-Exarch Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Northern Cali Posts: 138 My Photos: (0)	I want to clarify my response... I said no problems. I have never had troubles getting the car to stop. However, it has been a bit odd at times. 99% of the time everything is fine. 99% of the time I slow down as needed and downshift as I come to a stop. Then I brake, forcefully if needed (not too hard) as I come to a stop. It is generally never spongy or weak. The 1% of the time when it is "OH CRAP!" stopping is a different story. The pedal jumps and pulsates and I can feel the ABS working. There is for sure a lot of feedback to our brake pedal. :P Sometimes if it is a long stopping action or if I do start rolling within the first 5 seconds of starting the car, I can feel the system compensating for a lack of normal pressure. Giving the gas one good rev is usually enough to build up the pressure though so that by the stop sign at the end of my block the brakes are normal and strong. So, aside from the pulsating, I'm fairly happy with the stock brakes. I had a "OH CRAP!" moment the other day... driver in front of me elected to not go on through a yellow left turn arrow, slamming on her brakes when I knew good and well we could have both made it through. Anyway... I was accelerating hard to make it through the light because I was still far behind after letting the big ol SUV pull out in front of me in the first place... I was very happy to be in the agile Sky instead of my van. Although maybe the van would not have been a problem anyway since I would not have been able to build up any speed anyway. How's that fer splainin'?

11-01-2007, 10:49 AM	#68 (permalink)
Rob the Elder Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Parker Colorado Posts: 309 My Photos: (1)	So far we have not experienced this problem. But I am enjoying reading through the thread. Some thoughts for your consideration. The Sky is different from just about every other car you may have driven. The direct injection motor brings with it a lot of changes other than just a lot of HP for the cubic inches. One of them is the way it creates and manages vacume. Its a fact of life that the engineers have to live with and design around. In addition, the combination of ABS, traction control and stability control on the car has a huge impact on how the braking system thinks and functions. My 68 GTO had vacume assist power brakes and when there was no vacume the brakes were very hard. Generally the vacume system retained enough reserve for two stops plus a little. So when I came home late at night and turned the motor off to glide into the driveway at home, I knew I could stop normally. However, being a 4 speed, I started it with my foot on the brake. A few seconds after startup, the pedal pushed up against my foot as vacume increased until it was at normal height. But it always worked. Not having experienced the problem myself I cant really speak from personal experience however the design has to allow for engine off breaking. All the safety engineers I have known would never let you get away without providing for a blown motor at speed. Unless somehow the design interrupts the path of hydraulic force from the master to the slave cylindars, there should be force transfer under any and all conditions. I can see that the force required to stop under engine out conditions must be very high but it would be nice to see some engineering that describes the unboosted path. As to pumping up the oil pressure. . . . I have read studies and tests that state that the vast majority of wear in an internal combustion motor occurs during the first 45 - 90 degrees of rotation of the crank. This is when there is essentially zero oil pressure in the main bearings and metal to metal contact is possible. What prevents this contact and associated wear is the film of lubricant left in the spaces between the bearing surfaces as the motor last stopped operation. One of the great advantages of synthetic oil as we use in our ecotec motors is its film strength. Mobile 1 has been tested many times and one of its strengths is its ability to maintain a very good film of lubricant to inhibit or prevent wear on start. The point is that with synthetic oil you dont get wear and dont need to wait for oil to circulate. Another thought that comes to mind that may bear on why this "problem" is experienced by some owners but not others, or under some conditions and not others. It would be interesting to capture data on vacume decay over time on cars that do and dont have the problem. I suspect that we might find that cars that always have the problem loose vacume a lot faster than cars that dont have the problem. It may be as simple as slight leaks in some vacume systems that cause them to loose vacume rather than retain it over night, and contribute to increased times to build vacume upon starting. Finally, just because the factory says its normal and tells the dealers not to fix it does not mean that they are not working on design changes. I suspect that they are working on various fixes. The simplest fix would be a software fix that monitored the vacume or used a count down timer to let the driver know when its safe for the car to be moved. Or, alternatively the might do a software update that changes how the brake management system functions. For example, it might disable actions that require bleeding off vacume or modify how the traction control and stability control system function for the critical first two or three minutes. I might offer that the reason the device formerly known as the emergency brake is so close to hand is so you can use it to stop. When I took my driving test, we had to start on a hill using the emergency brake to hold the car steady on the hill while engaging the clutch. They never should have changed the name to parking brake in my opinion. The emergency / parking brake is connected via cables to the rear brakes and will allways work.

11-01-2007, 07:43 PM	#71 (permalink)
KittenT Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Big D Posts: 2 My Photos: (0)	It's worse on mine when the car is first started in the morning. After I initally drive it, park and go out again a little later it still does it but drops idle faster. Taking off right away is just from habit, but I've been trying to change that. Revving it seems to speed up the idle drop after the initial run, but it's probably me just killing time. It's real scary when you do forget--Last week I started backing out, put it back in drive to pull back in the driveway and almost rear ended our motorcycle. Talk about heart attack!

11-01-2007, 08:09 PM	#72 (permalink)
SkyMarshall Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: East Side of Lake Washington Posts: 58 My Photos: (0)	I think its out right dangerous & Saturn should immediatly recall these cars for this. It appears top be lack of vacuum in the power brake. Mildly rev the eng. a few times and you get your brakes a little faster, cold out the garage. 34k for a car with crappy brakes? My 98 nissan pickup has better brakes. This is supposed to be a sports car. __________________ New Kaka Team KaKaRacing 2008 Sponsors Univera Just ask! Alloutgraphics Windowsmanager,LLC

11-01-2007, 08:12 PM	#73 (permalink)
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Northern, VA Posts: 2,476 My Photos: (0)	A note about "normal". Normal does not mean "OK". Normal does not mean "safe". Normal does not mean "correct" A gun is operating "normally" when the trigger is pulled, the hammer falls, and a bullet explodes out of the barrel at lethal speed. If someone happens to be standing along the path of this bullet, they will get hurt and possibly die. The gun is WORKING NORMALLY. Granted, our brakes are not a gun. But when it comes to discussion of problems like this it is important to focus on the problem and not get wrapped up in the nomenclature. DON'T CHALLENGE GM on whether the brakes are working "normally". Instead, the challenge should be that the NORMAL operation is unsafe. Focus on the unsafe part, not the nomenclature. __________________ 2008 Redline Black Onyx Black/Red Leather Monsoon 6 Disc Spoiler French Transmission Born July 2007 Snagged 8/31/07 Belle? That's my car Alizée? That's my avatar Me? Forty something male skydriver

11-01-2007, 08:23 PM	#74 (permalink)
mrdave Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 13 My Photos: (0)	Couldn't agree more SkyMarshall...but it will take everyone getting on record - there are at least 28 people with the problem on this forum, and from the numbers thats about 50% of the skyline owners that took the survey...that's a pretty high number if you ask me. Let's all home they stand up and be counted. Oh, and if you do file the complaint with Saturn, don't be discouraged when they call you with a 1-2 minute prepared speech about how important saftey is to them and thanks for letting them have a chance to look into it, and how they talked ot the dealer and their engineers and after they went to great lengths they determined that there's no issue. I actually stopped the manager 30 seconds in to ask if it was a prepared remarks she was reading. Oh and don't be surprised if they paraphrase your problem as "Soft brake pedal" despite what you tell them. My guess is they are coached on that response. My favorite was when they said it was working as designed and I said what exactly is that design,,,"oh what you car is doing" - Please describe that in detail I don't understand what you mean "I means exactly that, working as designed" May I speak to a manager - "No your next step is to write a letter to the president of GM" - I understand that but can I speak to your manager , "I've advised you of your next step"....Click..line dead Certified notice sent to Saturn today. Great customer service, obviously well trained(as a roadblock)!

11-02-2007, 12:33 AM	#79 (permalink)