2008 RL Brake Retrofit

[Bogie]

Based on a brake fix to jodenessky's SKY, and discussion with the Service Manager who did the work, Saturn has a brake retrofit kit that installs a vacuum pump in our 2008RL, essentially restoring the design from 2007. If you read jodenessky's feedback after the fix, it appears to work great!

You can read about jodenessky's brake problem here: Now no brakes while using cruise control!

The retrofit involves a vacuum pump, some wiring changes, and some computer reprogramming.

Please wait before heading down to your local Saturn dealer and demanding a retrofit. They probably won't know what you're talking about as I do not think Saturn has rolled it out yet. Give Saturn time. Also, although the Service Manager who worked on jodenessky's vehicle didn't say anything was close hold (I asked to be sure), I wouldn't want the fact the dealer was forthcoming with this information to come back and slap them in the face, which could happen if we all rise up and demand immediate action. Saturn might not be aware at how well integrated our community has become and how quickly information like this can spread.

Saturn is working on a solution. Apparently, they've been working on it for some time. Give them time to roll it out.

[TravisJames]

Thanks for the info Bogie. That's great news for us 2008 R L owners. As suggested, I'll be waiting patiently for the official Saturn notice to roll out before I pester my local service dept for the retro.

[Sky_Pilot]

Ditto TJ's comments. Also as an adder. I almost hit a car this morning backing out of my garage, the damn brakes just would not stop the car. I yanked up on the hand brake and sat there (im)patiently waiting for the brakes to wake up and start working. Not quite the butt-pucker I experienced exiting the freeway a week or so ago, but nonetheless just as aggravating!!!

[Darkwing]

Good info..thanks.
I haven't had any problems with my brakes at all yet, but its comforting to know that there is a solution if I need one down the road.

[Skip]

Saturn is probably random selecting the Skys to do this with. It is I will bet experimental right now to see iffen it is going to work. I see in the future a fix for the brake problem iffen the results come back on the good side. Even if it does work and Saturn does go for the fix it is going to be just like the rear end seals. It will take time to get all the repair kits made up and out to the different dealerships. It will also probably apply to the Solstice side as well. Lets see iffen it works first and then the rollout of the kits to fix...Skip...about three months is what I think...

[BlueSkyRL]

Sorry if I offend anyone, not my intention. That being said, I work for an automotive company and we would never just experiment on someones automobile, especially on something as critical as the braking system. The work and solution would and should come from the R&D department, tested throughly, failure analysis, etc before putting the solution randomly on any vehicle.

This problem has been known for some time now and is very serious. If I allowed a problem of this magnitude to exist this long, I would be looking elsewhere for employment. OK, rant off and patience mode back on.

[Lil GTO]

perhaps it would help move things along it EVERYONE who has experienced the problem to make their service department aware of it - without necessarily letting slip that you know there is an official fix in the works. If Saturn Corp thinks this is only affecting 1% of vehicles but it is in fact affecting 30% of vehicles that awareness might help them move it along.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Lil GTO

perhaps it would help move things along it EVERYONE who has experienced the problem to make their service department aware of it - without necessarily letting slip that you know there is an official fix in the works. If Saturn Corp thinks this is only affecting 1% of vehicles but it is in fact affecting 30% of vehicles that awareness might help them move it along.

I have a feeling Saturn is well aware this is a problem across the entire 2008RL production.

I doubt there is much we can do to "move it along". The one thing I would be worried about is if they fall short of a Recall and only address those who note the problem. The best way to move it along is probably to file with the NHTSA, which has been discussed in several other threads. NHTSA is in the midst of investigation. The more complaints they get, the greater the chance Saturn will be "encouraged" to issue a recall and just fix them all instead of attempting half measures.

[MidniteBlues]

Originally Posted by Bogie

I have a feeling Saturn is well aware this is a problem across the entire 2008RL production.

I doubt there is much we can do to "move it along". The one thing I would be worried about is if they fall short of a Recall and only address those who note the problem. The best way to move it along is probably to file with the NHTSA, which has been discussed in several other threads. NHTSA is in the midst of investigation. The more complaints they get, the greater the chance Saturn will be "encouraged" to issue a recall and just fix them all instead of attempting half measures.

thoroughly AGREE!!. However, if I were an owner of a 08 R/L, I would do both, file with the NHTSA AND let it be known to your dealer that YOU have this problem on start up, even tho you know they have no fix yet. Make SURE it is documented on a service ticket, that way, it IS in their computers that you have an issue with the brakes..

[mbeardsley]

Bogie, when you talked to the service mgr, did he say that this fix was provided by Saturn, or was it just something that they did on their own?

I would think that it had to be provided by Saturn (especially if a ECM reflash was needed), but one of the posts by jodenessky said it was "something they would try and see".

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by mbeardsley

Bogie, when you talked to the service mgr, did he say that this fix was provided by Saturn, or was it just something that they did on their own?

I would think that it had to be provided by Saturn (especially if a ECM reflash was needed), but one of the posts by jodenessky said it was "something they would try and see".

It was a Saturn provided "kit".

I think the "try and see" statement was not a reflection of experimentation. My conjecture is they've been working on this for a while, probably have it completely designed and are in the process of ramping up production. Remember, we're talking several thousand kits (how many 2008 RL were produced?) if they are building for a recall. This requires lining up suppliers, production, packaging, and administrative and engineering support services. It's likely they have several kits "available", either as pre-production kits, or perhaps the first batches from the production run.

As for the "try and see", keep in mind that although we diagnosed a vacuum problem here on the boards, Saturn can't just presume that is the problem. Hence, "try it out" may have been more a reflection of the uncertaintly in the root problem than it was in the technical capability of the kit to fix the vacuum problem.

Jodenessky's problem was the most severe I've seen, and Saturn corporate probably made the decision to go ahead and send a kit to the dealer to fix the problem...even though they are not ready for a full roll out.


Edit: And if this post Latest on Cold Braking issue is any indication, it looks like the roll out is upon us.

[Darkwing]

This reminds me of a problem I had with my 1981 Corvette. GM had a problem for several years using soft metal in their cams, particularly in their small block engines. When my 'Vette was just past warranty I began hearing noise in the engine coming from the valve-train area. I took the car to the dealer and the service rep told me it was a common problem and well known that the lobes of some of these cams wore down over time.
When I asked him if there was a recall he said no but there was a ' courtesy' settlement in effect and referred me to the Better Business Bureau (You can reach BBB AUTO LINE by calling 1.800.955.5100).
It seems that these courtesy settlements are a way for the Manufacturers to circumvent a full blown recall on a common problem, and the incurred expense of recalling all of the vehicles affected.
After I called the BBB on this car I got paperwork to sign that ammounted to a disclaimer stating that neither party was at fault for the failure ( the manufacturer or the consumer), and I had the cam replaced at no expense to myself.
I also needed to go through this procedure for the transmission on a Camaro I owned.
Anyway...the reason I posted this long-winded rant is to show that not all defects are official government involved recalls, and if GM can convince the Transportation Safety people that the brakes aren't an immediate safety problem they may go the route of the "courtesy settlement".
These settlements are in effect even after the factory warranty is up. GM does not send out this information freely and it is up to the savvy consumer to pursue their own course of action.

I hope this info helps someone down the road, if not for the brake problem but any other problem that may come up.
Dave

[Polar Wind]

Thanks Bogie, great info. At first I thought it was not a big deal, just something to live with. But it has caught me off guard after work a few times. Sure will be nice to get a fix.

[G8TR]

Almost lost mine one morningafter not warming up. Now I sit and wait a minute or so before taking off, hopefully they'll put this fix out soon.

[thejewcanoe]

ha, i for one am for the brake retrofit.....
i didn't believe it when i first read it on here.
i was completely aware and tried it out without waiting 30 seconds to get the vacuum
yeah i had NO brakes!
there should always be assist pressure left in that brake system from the last time you ran the car. ugh
but i understand this auxiliary is not there due to the hydraulic brake booster being used from the stability control system.
i mean the clutch is hydraulically powered and it uses brake fluid from the brake master cylinder resevoir ( I read that in the owners manual : look up clutch)
why the hell would they remove the auxiliary system if the clutch uses it as well.

[xmicro_Redline]

Good to see they are addressing this problem FINALLY! I do not know why they changed the design from the 07 RL's .... stupid ....... I never have a breaking issue.

Years ago you never bought the first model year of anything, cars, TV's, Appliances, etc. They used to come out for a year or two and then upgrade the model to boost sales for the same price. Now a days, they come out with something and the next year they change it to cut corners and save money AFTER IT GETS A GOOD REPUTATION. Sony is infamous for this technique. Can't trust anyone anymore ... it's all about the Green Back and they are harder and harder to come by these days!

[TINOONIT]

Bottom line is if you have problems with the brakes at start-up like most of us then file with NHTSA.com

[Animator]

It just started happening to me. I have an 08 redline. Had to stand on the brakes to get it to stop when pulling out.
How long is everyone waiting before taking off ?

[LOVE CHILI RED]

About 45 seconds seems to work for my RL!

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Animator

It just started happening to me. I have an 08 redline. Had to stand on the brakes to get it to stop when pulling out.
How long is everyone waiting before taking off ?

About 30 seconds. Not really a big deal. Gotta get my shades on. Fasten seat belt. Dial up a song. Check mirrors for proper alignment. Put my SA face on.

You can also check brakes before putting in gear.

[SCVanguard]

It takes mine about 30 seconds as well. I always drive home with the top down so the first thing I do in the morning is start the car, open the deck and put the top up...in that time, the brakes are all good.

But still...It should NEVER have been this way. What if you gotta get out of somewhere quick. Say...I don't know...a wife in labor...angry torch-mob...whatever. It's just not a situation I'd want to be in.