2008 RL Brake Retrofit

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Sky_Pilot

The dealer called me Wednesday afternoon and told me that some regional service guy came through and checked out my Sky to confirm it needed the TSB upgrade

Keep in mind we are dealing with a Corporate bureaucracy, with perhaps no one having an understanding of the BIG PICTURE. Engineering is running off and doing its thing. Customer Service is doing its thing. The NHTSA branch is doing its thing. The lawyers are probably doing their thing. Management is doing its thing. But NOBODY has a clue what everyone else is doing. So each entity is chugging along following its on paradigm, without much interface with anyone else.

[A vision comes to mind from the movie Titanic...you know the scene where the Titanic is sinking and Leonardo and Kate have to bust through a wall to achieve temporary safety.....and a steward approaches them to hold them accountable for the destruction of the wall they just busted through]

This happens a lot in Corporate America. Either a leader will emerge who knows how to make decisions and has the authority to execute a plan.....or.....GM will thrash away like a hydra until some larger forcing function (NHTSA mandated recall...lawsuit....or 60 minutes hit piece) rattles their cage.

[Darkwing]

With Bogie

Corporate America tends to think in quarterly bottom line terms. I'm sure the bean counters are the primary input in these decisions. Somewhere someone is busy trying to figure out the payout of a determined number of lawsuits,etc versus the cost of a complete recall, while trying to keep the government entities at bay.
There is hope though in that maybe the US auto industry did learn a lesson when Japan kicked their @ss in the world and domestic market because the long term public perception turned against them when so many defective products were pushed upon the consumer.

[SCVanguard]

I stopped by Saturn of Arrowhead today for some questions and asked about the retrofit. The techs said they haven't heard anything about it and there wasn't a bulletin put out yet. Anyone have any how soon we can expect it to hit the fan?

[Rob the Elder]

Actually, while its possible that not everyone inside of GM knows what everyone else is doing, anyone who has access to a charge number has to justify the hours billed. Seldom can engineers just go off and do their own thing. They cost a lot of money and every labor hour is accounted for. They dont usually just have a couple of engineers sitting around with nothing to do who spontaneously decide to go do a redesign of a car design that has been in production for months.


They first have to have problem reports, and quantitative analysis of the problems, then causual analysis, then risk assessment, then some trade studies, some conceptual designs, briefings up through the engineering chain and then over to the management / marketing chain. Then it goes to the lawyers for a risk assessment, then a cost benefit analysis . . . then several meetings to discuss risk and opportunity management . . . then if all the planets line up correctly the decision to do some preliminary design and maybe some prototyping. then some functional testing for feasibility, another risk assessment, cost benefit analysis update . . . then they might decide to generate a real design and an engineering model of the fix. Deploy some of the engineering models for more extensive testing. More data gathering. More quantitative analysis. More presentations up and down the chain.

Then they might actually arrive at a decision.

But there is little room for some guy or two to just go off and do stuff on their own. No way.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Rob the Elder

But there is little room for some guy or two to just go off and do stuff on their own. No way.

I'm not talking about a guy or two, I'm talking about ENTIRE CORPORATE DEPARTMENTS. [Aside: I do have at least one example of a few engineers going off and doing something 'on the side', which can happen when management encourages independence]. But I'm not talking independence. I'm talking Corporate stove pipes. Yes, there is communications between the pipes. But with regard to this brake problem, I would venture a pretty high suspicion that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing...and that no one at GM has the big picture.

This isn't to say things won't eventually settle out. I suspect everything will come around...eventually. But it ain't there yet. Sky_Pilot mentioned his dealer had a TSB, and was ordering the retro parts. Then, all of a sudden a district manager has to step in and validate....then the parts are on back order. Back order!? Think about it. The program hasn't even launched and there is a back order. That does not make sense. Now another owner says Saturn told them there isn't a retro TSB. Corporate is probably still saying there isn't a problem, and the lawyers may be hitting the roof because a vehicle has been repaired...and works great. [Remember, a retro fix that WORKS means big time liability for all the failures prior to the fix]. Yadda yadda.

I see a lot of thrashing by several corporate elements, and a little bit of progress (jodenessky did get repaired!), but no obvious leadership. And nine times out of ten, that's because there is none...yet. At least none that is working a strategic plan to orchestrate all the departments (engineering, production, customer service, administration, counsel, NHTSA link, etc.).

[thejewcanoe]

so are they in the works of getting a retro??
i asked the dealer about my brakes and they said it all looked good no red flag. but i still have crunchy brakes at start-up. hmmm a mystery.
and i have a 2008 just got it a month ago.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by thejewcanoe

so are they in the works of getting a retro??
i asked the dealer about my brakes and they said it all looked good no red flag. but i still have crunchy brakes at start-up. hmmm a mystery.
and i have a 2008 just got it a month ago.

This all boils back to the original Saturn Corporate position that the brakes are "working as designed", which is true. I don't want to rehash the hundreds of previous threads on this position in that a dangerous design, working as designed...is...well....dangerous.

The dealer is either operating under Corporate inertia...or, and this is a possibility, Saturn is still vacillating on a recall or not. If it's the latter, and you want you brakes fixed under recall, submit a complaint to the NHTSA. The complaints reached investigative levels a few months ago, but the number might not be sufficient to force a recall. Saturn might fight it. The recent feedback suggests they might be taking that position, particularly the part about the district manager having to validate a brake problem. Although that might be stall tactics, if the guidance comes from further up, it suggests the higher up management does not think this is common across the 2008RL production and is aligning for something short of recall.

[technogray]

I still don't think this problem affects all 08 Redlines. My brakes work fine.

[Jade Sky]

Mine are a little "crunchy" when I first start up, but after I get ready to pull out of the driveway they are fine. My dealer also does not have any info or knowledge about an issue. (And Mara is new enough that she ducked the rear end recall)

[turbo53]

I've noticed this issue since I first got my RL. As others have said, 30 seconds seems to be enough to clear it up.

I'm going in for my first oil change next month and hopefully the kit is widely available by then. I'll definitely ask about it.

[krisis7]

There is no info from Saturn yet, these are the only bullitans out there, if you had other work performed it was by the dealer, not tech support...

Subject: Information on Optimized Hydraulic Boost Brake System Characteristics


Models: 2008 Pontiac Solstice GXP

2008 Saturn Sky Redline

2008 Opel GT

with 2.0L Engine (VIN X - RPO LNF)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Optimized Hydraulic Boost (OHB) is a standard feature, included with all 2008 vehicles equipped with the 2.0L (RPO LNF) engine). OHB assists brake operation under low engine vacuum conditions using the ABS system.

If your vehicle has Electronic Stability Control (ESC) and the 2.0L turbocharged engine, it will also have a hydraulic brake boost feature which supplements the power brake system to maintain consistent brake performance under conditions of low brake booster vacuum utilizing the ABS system.

Important: Increased brake pedal effort due to low brake booster vacuum conditions may exist during;

• The initial cold engine start up and the first few brake applies.

• When the vehicle has been parked for extended periods and/or at higher altitudes and restarted.

• Any time the vehicle is started up after a brake booster has been completely bled down (no stored vacuum).


The OHB functions are controlled by the Electronic Stability Control (ESC) Module. The ESC module determines when to activate the OHB.

The following OHB characteristics are considered to be normal:

• Increased brake pedal effort under low brake booster vacuum.

• Change in brake pedal effort when OHB is active.

• Ratchet sound coming from the brake system during OHB activation.

• Frequent brake stops may result in OHB activation.

• High altitude driving may result in OHB activation.

• Brake pedal movement or pulsation when the OHB is active.

Some customers may bring their vehicle back to the dealership commenting on any or all of the above characteristics . The customer may experience brake pedal movement or pulsation accompanied by a change in brake pedal effort when the OHB is active.

Important: Do not attempt to repair or replace any parts for what is considered normal operation of the OHB.

If a condition should exist in which you might not be receiving the intended brake boost, the SVC BRAKE SYSTEM message may be displayed on the DIC.

And

Subject: Extra Effort Needed to Depress Brake Pedal After Vehicle Has Not Been Driven for Extended Period of Time (Reprogram EBCM)


Models: 2008 Pontiac Solstice GXP

2008 Saturn Sky Redline

2008 Opel GT

2008 Daewoo G2X




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Condition
Some customers may comment that after their vehicle has not been operated for an extended period of time, extra effort may be needed to depress the brake pedal.

Correction
Important: The following Optimized Hydraulic Brake (OHB) characteristics are considered to be normal and no mechanical parts should be replaced in effort to change the operation of the system:

• Increased brake pedal effort under low brake booster vacuum.

• Change in brake pedal effort when OHB is active

• Ratchet sound coming from the brake system during OHB activation

• Frequent brake stops may result in OHB activation

• High altitude driving may result in OHB activation

• Brake pedal movement or pulsation when the OHB is active

Refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 07-05-22-002 for further information on Optimized Hydraulic Boost Brake System Characteristics

DO NOT replace the brake vacuum booster, brake vacuum sensor, EBCM or ABS module for this condition.

An Electronic Brake Control Module (EBCM) calibration was released in TIS version 12.0 on November 29, 2007 that may reduce the effort the customer feels when depressing the brake pedal on a car that has not been operated for an extended period of time.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by technogray

I still don't think this problem affects all 08 Redlines. My brakes work fine.

Can you take a picture of your vacuum from the engine to the brake vacuum cylinder and post it here?

[SCVanguard]

Today when I took in my RL to S. of Scottsdale for the no boost problem, I inquired about the brake retrofit. The service manager said that the first thing they do is do a reprogram (um...huh??? how would that fix the brakes??) and if that doesn't work, they will do the retrofit. BUT...they have to order it and wait for it to come in. They aren't going to have a stockpile laying around. I'm making sure to schedule one more appointment later next week for the retrofit, if they can get the kit in time.

So it seems like a *FEW* service departments know about it, but not everyone. If you have a few dealerships within driving distance, call all of them and ask if they know about it.

[krisis7]

There is no refit from Saturn...

[Sky_Pilot]

Originally Posted by krisis7

There is no refit from Saturn...

Ok, I won't mince words by calling it a retrofit or refit, I'll simply state that my Saturn work order identifies about 12 pieces of ******** hardware to "repair" my brake system

[SCVanguard]

Got my car back from the dealer today, and on the work order it says, and I quote...

"Customer states the brake pedal is very spongy after the car sits for extended periods. Tech verified the concern, tech recalibrated the EBCM per Bulletin"

And as I left, the service manager reminded me to call him if it still continues and he will order the kit to install. Huzzah!

[jodenessky]

Bogie, The brakes are still working. I dont use cruise control, but my husband does. Disappointed that I'm still waiting on the parts to fix the damage that happened to my car from it not being put back together right after the retro fit package was installed.

[mbeardsley]

Originally Posted by jodenessky

Disappointed that I'm still waiting on the parts to fix the damage that happened to my car from it not being put back together right after the retro fit package was installed.

Damage...what damage?

I must have missed a post somewhere. What's the issue here?

[Lil GTO]

maybe it is a built in test to see if you have the reaction time required to operate such a vehicle

[thejewcanoe]

it seems to bleed pressure while the cruise control has been on for roughly about 15 minutes. i had that experience at 75mph in my 2008 Redline. i don't want to over-exaggerate it.... there were still brakes, they were just very crunchy. the OHB quickly (but not quicker than aux. vac assist) gave me the pressure need to quickly slow the car down and not rear end my dubious onlooker of whom pulled out in front of me to get a better look at the car. (he couldn't believe it was a saturn)