After Trifecta Base Tune 93 Octane And 1 Step Colder Plugs Still Seeing Detonation!!! - Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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After Trifecta Base Tune 93 Octane And 1 Step Colder Plugs Still Seeing Detonation!!!

Ok....As the title says....I got the Trifecta tune about 2 weeks ago which bumped the boost I am getting up to 21-23 psi. I keep doing datalogs with my torque pro app and was getting a lot of KR at wot and higher rpms, so I just switched out the plugs for 1 step colder plugs today.

Still I'm getting KR at wot and higher rpms!!! What else can I try with this? Two step colder plugs?

Also, I thought that when the computer sees KR that it will start pulling timing until it doesn't see knock, but everytime I do a WOT I'm still seeing KR.

What's going on with this?!?!? Any help would be appreciated!!!!

I've attached a datalog from today. Any help would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!
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File Type: doc Colder Plugs Datalog.doc (209.0 KB, 22 views)
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I know DI engines like leaner mixtures but I'm pretty sure that 13 is a bit too lean. However you're still seeing KR in the low 12s.

Your KR is pulling timing. Look at your timing in those cells where you have KR and realize that you'd have more timing there without the KR.

Two degree colder plugs may help but almost 3 degrees is more than what a plug will take away.

What else do you have on your car? While this could also be false KR because I'm not seeing it decaying I don't like assuming it's false. What fob do you have for recording with Torque?
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
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What do you mean Fob? I ordered that blue tooth dongle you told me about, but it hasn't shown up yet. This datalog was with that old ebay dongle I had before.

I am still getting KR on the stock tune at the same place as well.

I just don't know.....This is frustrating!!!!
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:32 PM   #4 (permalink)
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You need to do a scan with that new dongle.

IF you're getting KR on the stock tune then you need to see if anything is rattling around in the engine or exhaust. Exhaust rattles can cause false KR.

Tracking this down can be frustrating but it will get sorted.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I was kind of starting to think that it was false KR as well, but it's pretty consistent around 6k.

And I've been saying since I bought the car that it seems like I'm hitting the rev limit around 6k rpms. I'm wondering if what I think is the rev limit is actually knock and the system pulling timing.

Also, when I changed the plugs the first time I neglected to check the old ones first to see that they were in fact the AC Delco 41-102s. Well I got a plug that was equivalent to the 41-108s so it was one step hotter. I did see more KR in those datalogs. Then I got an NGK equivalent plug to the AC Delco 41-102s in the datalog you see.

So basically the plugs I'm using currently aren't actually 1 step colder than the plugs I originally had in the car but are the same heat range.

Basically I'm going to have to buy plugs that are TWO steps colder than the (now factory) AC Delco 41-108s to make sure that I'm actually using a 1 step colder plug.

I also emailed Trifecta to find out what kind of AFRs I should be seeing with their tune.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Also. When I was changing the plugs the first time I found that the PCV hose was broken off at the intake. I'm going to epoxy that back on, and I have read that it being broken and leaking like that can cause the car to run leaner since unmetered are is entering the system.

Hopefully that being fixed will richen up the mixture some.
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:51 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattM View Post
I was kind of starting to think that it was false KR as well, but it's pretty consistent around 6k.

And I've been saying since I bought the car that it seems like I'm hitting the rev limit around 6k rpms. I'm wondering if what I think is the rev limit is actually knock and the system pulling timing.
Well yea, that would be it. Pulling that much timing would definitely be noticeable but still not like a rev limiter. Besides, I thought the limiter was at 6K...

Quote:
Also, when I changed the plugs the first time I neglected to check the old ones first to see that they were in fact the AC Delco 41-102s. Well I got a plug that was equivalent to the 41-108s so it was one step hotter.

Basically I'm going to have to buy plugs that are TWO steps colder than the (now factory) AC Delco 41-108s to make sure that I'm actually using a 1 step colder plug.
This is something you definitely want to resolve then see how much it drops your KR.

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Also. When I was changing the plugs the first time I found that the PCV hose was broken off at the intake. I'm going to epoxy that back on, and I have read that it being broken and leaking like that can cause the car to run leaner since unmetered are is entering the system.

Hopefully that being fixed will richen up the mixture some.
Whether it does or not, you definitely want to fix things that are broken this way. With this you should be lean across the board and would have fairly regular KR under acceleration at just about any RPM...not always true but would be expecting to see that. Just fix it and that eliminates any speculation to it's contribution to the issue.
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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So update...

I put in two step colder plugs this time and plugged the hole where the PCV broke off. It had a huge effect on the AFR.

The AFR was staying in the low 12s and I points it even looked a little too rich. That said even with two step colder plugs I was getting KR

However, if you look at the timing the computer must have decided it was alright to add more timing to the mix because I was seeing 12.5* around 21-22 psi.

All in all it's an improvement but I don't know what to think about the KR and the higher timing I'm seeing.
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File Type: doc 2 step colder plugs and plugged PCV.doc (358.5 KB, 10 views)
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:45 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Robotech. Can you compare my first datalog with my last one and tell what you think? From my perspective the afr is much better.
The thing i dont get is the kr and advnce. It looks to me like the ecu is adding more advnce than before but its still triggering kr. Why wouldnt it leave advance to where it doesnt detonate?
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Old 04-17-2017, 09:12 AM   #10 (permalink)
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As a general analytical process comment, you made a mistake by changing two things at once, especially given that one of them was a potentially significant air leak. At this point you may be well served to put everything back to the "normal" condition, make sure there are no other problems or incorrect parts, and start over with your testing.
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Old 04-17-2017, 09:30 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I def undestand what you are saying, but fixing the pcv leak only had an effect on the afr which is something that can also be measured, so we can see the difference. I dont know that fixing the pvc would do anything to the spark advance by itself.
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Old 04-17-2017, 10:34 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Everything is interdependent. AFR has a significant effect on the speed of combustion, so it affects both the exhaust gas composition and the amount of predetonation, both of which are used by the ECM. Because the air leak is uncontrolled it adversely affects the stability of fuel trims and timing adjustments.
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I get what you are saying. From my standpoint though. I'm trying to eliminate detonation that is all.

So, according to my datalogs...I was detonation at 8* to 9* of advance when it was a lean condition which would cause the ecu to put in 3* of KR. After I fix the AFR and get colder plugs the ecu bumps up timing to 12.5 or higher which still causes 3* KR.

I just want to eliminate the KR entirely, but it seems like no matter what I do the ecu will just keep adding timing until it does knock. It's just strange.

I do feel like the last datalog is encouraging because the AFR is safer and the timing is much more aggressive (which I guess is good).
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:39 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I just want to eliminate the KR entirely, but it seems like no matter what I do the ecu will just keep adding timing until it does knock. It's just strange.
Not my area of expertise, but maybe someone in the know can speak up. My understanding was that many programs (not specifically the Kappa) always advance until they hear slight knock and then stabilize just below that level. How often they 'hunt forward' to check if more advance can be run depends on the program.
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Old 04-17-2017, 01:25 PM   #15 (permalink)
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So much to address...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattM View Post
Robotech. Can you compare my first datalog with my last one and tell what you think? From my perspective the afr is much better.
The thing i dont get is the kr and advnce. It looks to me like the ecu is adding more advnce than before but its still triggering kr. Why wouldnt it leave advance to where it doesnt detonate?
First thing, again...and I cannot stress this enough...trying to make sense of your scans with that low resolution is nearly impossible. I can get some generalities but like I mentioned, it's like trying to read a sentence like this: "The...but...destroy...flowers." You have no idea what the meaning is but you know there is some good and some bad in the sentence. That's what your scan is.

What I WILL say is that your ECM has added timing BUT your tune likes it even less. I WOULD NOT go WOT on this tune until you get a better scanner. Before you had about 3 degrees of knock retard...2.99 was the worse I believe...now you're up to almost 5 (4.69 I think)! 1-2 degrees we don't like and try to get rid of but it's not horrible. 3-4 and you're wanting to get rid of that ASAP. Anything over 4 and you have some serious knock and are going to hurt your engine if you keep it up.

With the LNF, like the L67 3800 in my Grand Prix, often times when you see KR like this what you're really seeing is the piston ring gap closing, the ring expanding and then hanging at the top of the piston stroke. When this occurs repeatedly, it will chip the top of the piston. In the L67, this usually meant a bent spark plug electrode that you could straighten out and then everything was relatively fine as the engine could run on a chipped piston...hell, it would run on many chipped pistons.

The LNF though doesn't seem to be all that robust compared to the L67 (the L67 really was a tank...you couldn't kill it. Believe me, I tried...many times). If you chip a piston in the LNF, you're looking at replacing or rebuilding the engine.

So I would do one run when you get the new OBDII Bluetooth Fob AFTER you verify it's recording data with a greater resolution and then contact Trifecta. IF you had access to HPTuners, I'd tell you to richen up the fueling a bit AFTER contacting someone that knows how to tune the LNF and it's direct injection...this is something I've never done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattM View Post
I def undestand what you are saying, but fixing the pcv leak only had an effect on the afr which is something that can also be measured, so we can see the difference. I dont know that fixing the pvc would do anything to the spark advance by itself.
Don't make the mistake of thinking fuel has nothing to do with KR. It has EVERYTHING to do with KR. KR addresses timing because it's the only way the computer can fight knock on the fly. reducing timing should reduce knock. However, bad fuel, not enough fuel (running lean), too much boost, too high cylinder temps, and too much timing can all cause knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattM View Post
I get what you are saying. From my standpoint though. I'm trying to eliminate detonation that is all.

So, according to my datalogs...I was detonation at 8* to 9* of advance when it was a lean condition which would cause the ecu to put in 3* of KR. After I fix the AFR and get colder plugs the ecu bumps up timing to 12.5 or higher which still causes 3* KR.

I just want to eliminate the KR entirely, but it seems like no matter what I do the ecu will just keep adding timing until it does knock. It's just strange.

I do feel like the last datalog is encouraging because the AFR is safer and the timing is much more aggressive (which I guess is good).
No, it's not good. Look at your KR again...it's higher than before (which would make sense if you're computer is throwing more timing in...) You really need to understand what is going on here. Do some internet searches on knock and what causes it. You need this understanding first.

Then you'll see where Fuel Octane, AFR, Timing and compression all play a role in why you may see knock...or in our case KR.

Because your scan has such poor resolution, I can't tell if you're KR is actually getting reduced over time, staying the same, growing, etc. I can't tell if the ECM is effectively fighting it. This is not looking like false KR since it went up when timing went up so something in the tune is off...way off...but at the same time it's not decaying. True KR should decay once the ECM starts pulling timing but because of your low scan resolution, I can't see what the ECM's solution to the problem is really doing.

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Originally Posted by wspohn View Post
Not my area of expertise, but maybe someone in the know can speak up. My understanding was that many programs (not specifically the Kappa) always advance until they hear slight knock and then stabilize just below that level. How often they 'hunt forward' to check if more advance can be run depends on the program.
The way the tune in the 2.4 works (and my understanding is, in relation to timing, the LNF is similar) is that you have a basic timing table. Under a certain RPM, certain load, you should have a certain timing.

It then takes this base timing level and adds or subtracts timing based on other things such as coolant temp, air temp, temp of the air coming out of the intercooler, etc. One of the things it will "add or subtract" from the base timing table is the KR level. So when you see 4.69 degrees of KR, that means the computer will pull 4.69 degrees from your base timing level from the commanded timing. If the base timing, after all other modifiers, is 21 degrees but you're seeing that 4.69 degrees of KR then your commanded timing will be 15.31 degrees.

So when he's seeing a commanded timing of 20 degrees with 4.69 degrees of KR, the base timing, with modifiers, is somewhere around 25 degrees.

In conclusion, Matt, you REALLY need to get that new dongle and use it. This one just isn't doing you any favors and if you keep trying to scan using it, you're running the risk of hurting your engine.
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