New Turbo Assembly being put on.......

[Showtyme5]

So, I've had issues with my CEL going on. They've replaced the 02 sensor, MAF sensor, reflashed every time and it still has come on every time. The car is technically a lemon under Illinois law and has been in the shop 6 times now for the same issue regarding the same code (only had the car 4 months w/ 4k miles on it). On the fourth trip back, my dealer was telling me that they wouldn't work on my car UNLESS I gave them permission to drive the car 100 miles or so (the light usually came on within this mileage). They wanted me to agree to let the Service Mgr. drive my car for 3 days, keeping it in his own garage at night and putting 100 miles on it. They told me that my insurance would be primary if there was an accident. Does this not sound assinine to you? It took a while but I finally agreed. However, they had an issue downloading the codes into the system so they never got around to the test drive. So, having had enough (4 trips to the dealer, about ready to sue GM under the lemon law) I got somebody involved at GM HQ to remedy the situation. My father happens to be a project mgr at GM and it just so happens the guy down the hall from him is the head of Customer Service for Saturn (I didn't know this or I would have told him sooner......he also knows the chief designer of the Sky). The dealer had given me a data recorder, which I had to drive around with in my cup holder for about a week and when the CEL light came on I had to push in a button that would d/l the codes. I did that (light came back on) and then took the data recorder to the dealer where they downloaded it into their system. This time though, they sent it to a team of Saturn Engineers at GM HQ (after my dealer heard from the Customer Service guy.....haha). The team he assembled dissected the problem (supposedly they've never had a Sky with the issue mine is having) and came to the conclusion that the bypass valve on the turbo was "sticky." However, they can't order that part seperately and so an all-new turbo assembly was sent to Quality Control on Tuesday and will arrive at my dealer today to be installed. I'm still not completely confident this will remedy my situation, but I'm wondering if anyone else has had a new factory turbo installed on their Sky Redline and if so, how it has been performing. If my car's CEL light comes on one more time while under warranty, I'll be making Saturn buy the car from me. I love the car, but the hassle of taking it in and driving a rental every other week is the most annoying thing ever! I'm tired of it and refuse to get the insurance on the rental cars, putting me at some sort of risk of liability if anything were to happen to them while I'm driving (my regular insurance covers some of it). In any case, just thought I'd share my situation in case there are others out there frustratingly in a similar position. I've been told that my car will be used as a "case study"......pretty comforting isn't it? I was also told by the technician the 3rd time I brought it in that he was "throwing darts at this point." If this doesn't work, nothing will and this car is the definition of a Lemon. Actually, it already is.

[fr0stb1t3]

The reason they have to replace the whole turbo assembly is because the wastegate is inside the turbo, hence full turbo replacement.

Best of luck to you bro!

[compdoc777]

Can't believe they have never had a waste gate stick before and they were clueless to figure that out. All it needed was a new turbo? What tiz-zards!

This is truly the level of competence of the dealership. I think a class action law suit is in order since it seems as though the dealer should be responsible enough to have trained employees. I would sue them for wasting your time and money!

[shabby]

Bypass valve is the compressor bypass valve, not the wastegate. Im surprised they got you a new turbo just for that component, they should of taken it apart, cleaned it up and put it back in. It only moves side to side with vacuum. Unless the bov solenoid was faulty.

Originally Posted by compdoc777

Can't believe they have never had a waste gate stick before and they were clueless to figure that out. All it needed was a new turbo? What tiz-zards!

This is truly the level of competence of the dealership. I think a class action law suit is in order since it seems as though the dealer should be responsible enough to have trained employees. I would sue them for wasting your time and money!

How often does a bov stick? Rarely if not ever, so im not surprised the techs at the dealer for not figuring this out.

[compdoc777]

Originally Posted by shabby

Bypass valve is the compressor bypass valve, not the wastegate. Im surprised they got you a new turbo just for that component, they should of taken it apart, cleaned it up and put it back in. It only moves side to side with vacuum. Unless the bov solenoid was faulty.



How often does a bov stick? Rarely if not ever, so im not surprised the techs at the dealer for not figuring this out.

Don't think they are talking BOV. They are talking waste gate big difference they would not need to replace the turbo to replace the BOV.

[elwood58]

Originally Posted by compdoc777

Can't believe they have never had a waste gate stick before and they were clueless to figure that out. All it needed was a new turbo? What tiz-zards!

This is truly the level of competence of the dealership. I think a class action law suit is in order since it seems as though the dealer should be responsible enough to have trained employees. I would sue them for wasting your time and money!

Maybe a small claims court issue, but not likely a Class Action.

[shabby]

Originally Posted by compdoc777

Don't think they are talking BOV. They are talking waste gate big difference they would not need to replace the turbo to replace the BOV.

The bov is a component built into the turbo, and Showtyme5 said bypass valve not wastegate.

[Bogie]

The team he assembled dissected the problem (supposedly they've never had a Sky with the issue mine is having) and came to the conclusion that the bypass valve on the turbo was "sticky."

Be careful. If the words you use are the words they used, then this sounds like an engineering supposition. There is no BPV sensor, so they've came to that conclusion based on the sensor information available, and the CEL code. What was the CEL code?

Sounds like it was throwing an overpressure code.

They replaced the MAF. I presume the replacement is good, but it might not be. How would we know?

Did they check the wastegate, and rule that out?

The presumption of a sticky BPV seems like the conclusion of last resort.

Oh well, no matter. If you're getting a new turbo and it fixes the problem....that's all that matters...whatever the cause.


If you still have a chance to test it, there is a way to figure out if it sticks, depending on your hearing. I can hear my BPV blow every time I relax the throttle. If you can hear it blow, then the trick is to always listen to it. If you let off the gas and you don't hear the blow about the same time CEL comes on....then voila....its the BPV.

Can you remember the condition of the vehicle when the CEL came on? Heavy throttle release, moderate release, low release. That knowledge would help you repeat the CEL event, as you could repeat that even over and over again until it triggered again.

[Mallard]

Originally Posted by compdoc777

Don't think they are talking BOV. They are talking waste gate big difference they would not need to replace the turbo to replace the BOV.

As Shabby said, the BOV/BPV is built into the turbo housing.

[Showtyme5]

Originally Posted by Bogie

The presumption of a sticky BPV seems like the conclusion of last resort.

That's the impression I have as well.....

[compdoc777]

Originally Posted by Showtyme5

That's the impression I have as well.....

I thought the BOV or Blow off Valve sits further down stream on the turbo powered cars to to release the back pressure after closing the TB or Throttle body. I know there is a valve that opens and closes on the Turbo to help in over boost situations, but that from what I know would be called the Wastegate. Now some turbos have waste gates and some don't.

Usually bigger turbos require purchasing an external wastegate and usually that waste gate will be built into the exhaust manifold with a pipe that shoots back into the exhaust stream or down to the ground.

It is my knowledge the little air powered solonoid you see attached to the turbo controls the waste gate that why they have the "Waste Gate Mod"

So when they say they have to replace the turbo assembly I assume they are talking about the mechanical waste gate that is built into the turbo unit itself.

I have never seen a BOV attached to a turbo maybe our cars have a built in BOV on the turbo assembly. If so I have not seen it in any of the pictures of the removed turbo. All the cars that I have owned which have turbos have always had BOV down stream of the turbo.

Please see my attached pics for example actual turbo off the RL.

[Mallard]

Originally Posted by compdoc777

I thought the BOV or Blow off Valve sits further down stream on the turbo powered cars to to release the back pressure after closing the TB or Throttle body. I know there is a valve that opens and closes on the Turbo to help in over boost situations, but that from what I know would be called the Wastegate. Now some turbos have waste gates and some don't.

Usually bigger turbos require purchasing an external wastegate and usually that waste gate will be built into the exhaust manifold with a pipe that shoots back into the exhaust stream or down to the ground.

It is my knowledge the little air powered solonoid you see attached to the turbo controls the waste gate that why they have the "Waste Gate Mod"

So when they say they have to replace the turbo assembly I assume they are talking about the mechanical waste gate that is built into the turbo unit itself.

I have never seen a BOV attached to a turbo maybe our cars have a built in BOV on the turbo assembly. If so I have not seen it in any of the pictures of the removed turbo. All the cars that I have owned which have turbos have always had BOV down stream of the turbo.

Please see my attached pics for example actual turbo off the RL.

The second pic you posted shows the BOV/BPV in the upper center area of the pic. The top is brown plastic and you have pointed to it saying "Don't know what this is. Could be blowoff???"

There are many cars from the factory that have BOV/BPV's built into the turbine housing.

You could probably take it apart and fix it, but my guess is that since it's under warrenty GM would want to send that part back to Borg-Warner. And/or you may not be able to order those parts separately from the turbo.

Also, I don't know why you pointed at the turbine outlet and said "WTF!?!"

[compdoc777]

Originally Posted by Mallard

Also, I don't know why you pointed at the turbine outlet and said "WTF!?!"

It is tiny! I have since learned that there are two exhaust ports on this turbo and two tiny impellers like that hence "Dual Scroll".

The turbo's I am used to are 4 to 5 times that size on the exhaust impeller.

Since we have two little ones I can see. Yet I can also see much is to be gained by removing that turbo.

Since the RL motor is setup like the 13B rotary turbo motor with the twin turbos I wonder if a exhaust manifold can be made an adapted to fit twin turbos like the Mazda.

[ASKY]

Similar in the case of the dealer being unable to solve the issue without a turbo transplant, and burned thru 25+ days trying to figure it out.
I had a factory turbo replacement, worked ok for the time I had it. GM eventually replaced the car, the esclation policy is laid out in the warrenty book that comes with the car.
Good luck!

[Mallard]

Originally Posted by compdoc777

It is tiny! I have since learned that there are two exhaust ports on this turbo and two tiny impellers like that hence "Dual Scroll".

The turbo's I am used to are 4 to 5 times that size on the exhaust impeller.

Since we have two little ones I can see. Yet I can also see much is to be gained by removing that turbo.

Since the RL motor is setup like the 13B rotary turbo motor with the twin turbos I wonder if a exhaust manifold can be made an adapted to fit twin turbos like the Mazda.

I think you are a little confused. There is only one turbine outlet and it's the one you pointed at in the picture. "Dual scroll" means the turbine housing and manifold are divided, keeping the exhaust pulses separate until just before they reach the turbine.

A Mazda 13B has 2 turbos. A GXP/Redline has one turbo. There is no way to convert your manifold to run two turbos. A lot of new OEM turbo set ups are "dual scroll." Like the EVO X, to name one.

OEM turbos are usually a lot smaller than you'll find in the aftermarket. That's because the OEM (GM's) objective is a no 'lag' (meaning a low boost threshold) and a flat torque curve (great for streetability). The aftermarket is concerned with keeping the turbo in the center of the effeciency map, having a high peak power, keeping the pre-turbine (manifold)pressure from being too high, etc, etc (all kind of goes hand-in-hand).