Bought the GMPP package as soon as it was available, and had it installed by the Saturn dealership. Mileage at install was 24,000.
I had then MANY problems (check engine codes, engine running badly, etc.) with the GMPP tune in the beginning. They replaced MAF & MAP sensors several times (among other things). I was still having problems when the Saturn dealership went out of business.
Then took it to the nearby Chevy dealer (and after many trials and tribulations) found that it was ALL caused by a poorly crimped connector (even though the Saturn dealer had supposedly re-checked it multiple times).
The Chevy dealership soldered the connectors and it was fine ever after (until I totaled the car anyway). Mileage at destruction was 107,000.
My new replacement Sky will probably be getting it installed soon (by that same Chevy dealer).
Then took it to the nearby Chevy dealer (and after many trials and tribulations) found that it was ALL caused by a poorly crimped connector (even though the Saturn dealer had supposedly re-checked it multiple times).
Ah yes. I had the same problem. Except the Chevy dealer was never able to figure it out, but did manage to crack both fenders trying.
Your experience was what led me to those connectors. All I did is wiggle them firmly and I've never had another code. But if/when I do, I'll pull them apart and re-do the connections.
Just to throw my experience in. Even when the Sky was still being sold, many (most?) dealerships didn't know about the GMPP kit.
I tried to buy it from my local Saturn dealership, but they kept claiming that no such thing existed (even when I gave them the part number). I ended up having to buy it from CrateEngineDepot.
Of course, then when I brought it to them to get it installed, the service guy was pissed that I didn't buy it from them.
As for knowing HOW to install the GMPP, the instructions come with the kit (and are actually geared towards the owner installing it, rather than a mechanic). A decent GM service guy should have no trouble installing it, even if he hasn't done one before.
I would, however, advise either getting the special harness adapter from CrateEngineDepot, or making sure that the installer solders the connections (and not just crimps them).
The crimped connection often looks okay, but ends up with an intermittent connection that causes lots of missed/bad MAP sensor readings.
I have had my car tuned for going on 8 years, first with GMPP, then the basic Trifecta, then a custom datalogged Trifecta, and have had zero problems with any of them.
I do not have a tune but have been getting ready for one, had to get other items done first,
I went to local GM dealer this week to see if they can install and tell me about the GMPP
The service manager said they could install for about $ 275.00 part cost $ 626.00
They said all it did was increase turbo boost but not sure how much, I have been looking at the Trifiecta but after reading the problems on this product on the forum I am unsure which way to go.. anyone got any advice which one to get.
Well, it does a little more than that but understand that "just" increasing boost is what makes more power. Not only that, you could throw a bunch of aftermarket at the car and as long as the factory "learn down" torque levels in the tune (something the GMPP tune does increase) you'll never make any power above factory levels.
As for which is better, that's kind of what this thread is a part of. I believe there have been some reports of high KR levels in the Trifecta tune and Davhamm is seeing if any major engine issues have been tied to Trifecta tuned cars.
Not sure what "problems" you are referring to. Mine (Trifecta), the cheap one, works fine. Took boost up to 24. Throws you back in your seat like a rocket launch. Swaps back and forth with the traction button and is reliable.:cheers:
Depends on the sort of mods you do to the engine - if you just do the usual bolt ons like high flow CAT, either GMPP or basic Trifecta will suit you.
Only issues I've seen are dealers unfamiliar with the first, and slow response from the second, but the Trifecta offers more power for less money, so....
If you go past a certain point, you need to go for a customizable tune. When I changed turbos, I had Trifecta check the datalog filess and customize it - they made about 4 different tunes as they narrowed in on exactly what I needed, eliminating excessive knock etc. HP can do the same thing if you have someone who knows how to tune with it.
I had a GMPP on my previous RL for 2 years, 20,000 mikes. Bought it at CrateEngineDepot.com that had the Plug n' Play wiring harnesses and 2 new sensors. Had the ECM re-flashed at a local Buick GMC dealer (prior Saturn dealer).
Ran great with no problems.
Just installed a GMPP on my current RL. Only difference had a re-flash done at a Chevy dealer. They had experience with Chevy Cobalts and HHRs. No problems and runs great after 1,000 miles
Since I am currently on the newbie train what is the purpose of re-flashing? Once you get a tune shouldn't it be fine unless you add additional mods or is flashing different than tuning?
Yeah - each GMPP tune has a unique serial number which the dealer matches to your car serial number when you install it and get it authorized - intended to prevent using a tune on more than one car.
BTW, it is perfectly possible to have your own mechanic install the sensor and just take it to the dealer for the authorization. Usually save money that way.
Robotech...great explanation of all of that. Hopefully that will clear up some people's confusion about the whole thing.
I do have a question though. Since you are doing a very specific/detailed tune on your car while it is in AZ, will that affect it's drive-ability in other types of climates (i.e. altitude, humidity, temperature, etc.)?
The Arizona climate is not what I would exactly call typical. How much would your ideal engine values be likely to change if you were in Seattle or Denver or Minneapolis ?
It may not be ideal but I live in So Cal which is not too far removed from Arizona in terms of elevation and temperature. in fact, the conditions in Arizona were still cooler (that's right, I just called 102 degree air temperature cooler) than September can be where I live in So Cal so the conditions were comparable enough.
Also, our cars can and do adjust for different elevations. The Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) sensor that is in our cars does just that. At key on and before the engine starts, it takes a reading of what the local air pressure is and will use this information in making adjustments to the fuel ratio as you drive. This is one reason why you may often times see higher boost levels at higher elevations (along with the torque based management the LNF ECU uses).
Generally though it is best to tune in the same area where you'll be driving. Problem is, summer conditions may still vary widely from winter conditions in your area. The good thing about me tuning in AZ in 100 degree temps is that generally you make less power and have more chance of detonation in hotter temps than colder. Tuning in the cold may give you great winter power but may not be ideal in summer where you may experience more KR with that winter tune. However, a summer tuned car will work great in winter too. As I said though, our cars do adjust for different weather conditions and are much better than older cars and dealing with the changing air conditions of the seasons.
Denver is high altitude, so if you lived there it would be best to tune it for that altitude, otherwise not much difference for locations of similar altitude.
Well, so far, it seems neither Tune have damaged an engine, and the only real issues have been the GMPP tune bad solder's. Well and the increase boost ballooning IC and popping hoses.
Which leaves the $600 question on the table. With Warranties long gone, why buy a GMPP tune?
I mean don't get me wrong, I appreciate folks supporting my employer and enhancing my bonus, but don't waste your money on my account.
Well, part of the value (to me at least) is still being able to take my car to the GM dealership when/if I have a problem.
If I have a Trifecta tune, and bring it in with some sort of engine related issue (whether it is really a result of the tune or not), the dealer will likely not want to touch it (and will probably blame the tune).
If I have a GMPP tune (especially if it was installed at that dealer), the dealer will be far more cooperative.
Is that worth $600? To me, as this is my daily driver, it is. To others, maybe not.
But with the trifecta you can turn it off, or if you want, you can flash the original calibration files back in and the car will no longer have the tune, then flash it back.
I guess I don't deal with dealership mechanic's much but my mechanic doesn't get into the cal files to determine why something isn't working right. I mean if it was working, then stopped latter it wouldn't be a cal file, as those don't change. I can see if a problem started when you flashed it, the dealer would be like we don't know but all they would do is flash the original cal back in and see if that fixed the problem. Obviously its a personal choice, just trying to understand what kind of a problem would you encounter where a mechanic would say sorry can't help you cause you have a tune. I understand on the warranty side, GM won't warranty any parts that break with a tune in there, but their mechanics should still be able to fix the car.
I had the trifecta base tune for a little over a year and still don't think it was the culprit to engine problem last summer. I had 2 pistons' lands crack causing smoke from exhaust. I tore down the engine and had both timing chains stretched with the guides cracked also. About 102,000.
The intake valves were very caked and I cleaned them up. Did the valves, lapping by hand on the cylinder head as they were good and got a great seal on them. Did have 1 valve retainer that looked fatigued (looked like it was cracking). Changed that and put in new seals. The cylinders were still in spec so I just honed and got new pistons, bearings.
After much research gapped the new rings wider to what a turbo engine should have in the first place. I started a discussion thread on this also.
I had then put on new clutch and a Solo High flow cat also. Had a Trifecta re- flash upgrade for the cat being added and they did a data log check and told me everything looked good as they have been doing these tunes forever now and it shouldn't have caused the engine problem.
The old top rings came out with very tight end gaps. In my opinion this was the cause of this failure. The chains didn't help either and am lucky the valves didn't hit the pistons when thinking about it. Most likely when you tune or flash for more boost you should have wider piston ring gaps then the factory settings. Have been running strong since for 2500 miles+. Only smoke is off the tires! Have thought about going custom tune but not going to do anything else to it because of mileage and the fact that i put on about 10k miles a year. I'm leaving trust in the Trifecta. And they can tweek the base tune for moderate upgrade of exhaust at least.
I had the trifecta base tune for a little over a year and still don't think it was the culprit to engine problem last summer. I had 2 pistons' lands crack causing smoke from exhaust. I tore down the engine and had both timing chains stretched with the guides cracked also. About 102,000.
after much research gapped the new rings wider to what a turbo engine should have in the first place. I started a discussion thread on this also.
The old top rings came out with very tight end gaps. In my opinion this was the cause of this failure.
Most likely when you tune or flash for more boost you should have wider piston ring gaps then the factory settings.
This is what concerns me when you hear of people seeing "knock" with the aftermarket tunes. In the 3800 community we see this problem a lot even though we gap to factory specs. You can do things to the tune and with modifications to lessen this problem though.
Thing is, these rings hanging up like this will present as KR in a scan. This is why real detonation isn't so much of a problem but rather knock generated by hanging rings which is a proven engine killer.
There is no issue if you know how to solder. Although the dealer uses a special crimper, you still have some less than perfect connections result. If you solder them properly, there are no problems.
I ordered the GMPP kit before I even took delivery of my coupe in 2009 and no plugged connector existed at that point. My kit was installed by soldering and has had zero problems since.
Crate was smart to offer the plugged jumper as not all customers CAN solder properly and they avoided a certain percentage of come back blaming the kit by giving a fool proof alternative.
I can solder but I used crimp and heat connectors when I had to replace the factory MAF pigtail on my LE5. The wiring, after cutting the old pigtail off, was in the center of the engine bay and hard close to the rest of the harness. Just getting the wires stripped was a hassle. Trying to hold everything together while soldering would have been a nightmare. A good crimp and heat connector (which basically has solder in it and will flow to the wire soldering it to the connector after crimping) will hold very well too...2 years later and I have no issues with my job.
I would have rather soldered but just too hard to do it in that position.
Here are the GM instructions for the LNF Turbo Upgrade.
I have only included the first 5 pages (as pages 6-15 are just the same thing in French and Spanish).
Unfortunately, I had to split it up into 5 separate files because the full 5 pages were bigger than the forum's tiny 2MB attachment limit.
This is actually the 29-July-2009 version. The earlier version I also have (from 20-Nov-2008) does not include the 2009/2010 model info or info for the Cobalt SS. @davhamm --- Notice the intro on page 1 talking about how you should get a trained professional if you don't have the proper tools and/or expertise. Also notice the "Calibration Information" section on page 5.
Here are the GM instructions for the LNF Turbo Upgrade.
.
@davhamm --- Notice the intro on page 1 talking about how you should get a trained professional if you don't have the proper tools and/or expertise. Also notice the "Calibration Information" section on page 5.
Not to prolong the conversation (it has been a good one), but anyone interested in a GMPP turbo upgrade should seriously consider doing the sensor and harness install themselves using the kit from crateengninedepot.com. I've done it on 3 Sky's with no problems.
1) Buy the kit from crateengninedepot.com
2) Follow the GM installation instructions provided. When you get to those two sections that describes the soldering the the pigtails ----- skip that and just install the pigtails. It will take you longer to put your tools away and clean up than to do the install.
3) Take your Sky to a GM dealer for the re calibration. Make sure you take the serial number and authorization codes provided by crateengninedepot.com.
4) When driving to the dealership, Take it easy and try not to let the turbo kick in. You should not get any error codes or experience limp home mode. NO BIG DEAL if you do because the re-calibration process will clear all of that up.
5) Re-cal doesn't take long once the tech hooks up to the GM computer system..
I am not trying to oversell the GMPP, but previous buyers of my 2 previous Sky's were happy that the SKys' had the turbo upgrade and that it was ,in fact, a GM approved setup.
I really enjoyed reading everyone's previous comments.
Not sure about long-term with the Trifecta tune, but after one run with it installed, all I can say is WOW! I installed it on the Traction Control button so I can use it once in a while when you want an extra BOOST!. Plus that way when my son is old enough to drive he won't have easy access to extra power.
Wasn't thinking about doing an upgrade but after reading this thread and searching all the other related Trifecta discussions I'm seriously thinking about getting one! :grin:
Only question. Do you go through Trifecta or DDM or whom?
Robotech like always great explanation on tuning!!!
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