BSR tune warranty answers

SKY-DOGY · 07-26-2007, 04:50 PM

I asked via e-mail:

Quote:

I am investigating the PPC upgrade for the Saturn sky 2.0 Turbo. When the original program is returned to the ECU, can dealer detect that an upgrade has been used?

They replied:

Quote:

BSR: 2007-07-26 20:34
Hello XXXXX XXXXXX,

There is allways possibele to see how many time you have reprogramed the ECU.But the normall retailer can not see it but if they send the ECU to for ex BOSCH for check it is possibele to see it.

Best regards /BSR

SKYtime · 07-26-2007, 05:48 PM

Hmmmmmmm...life is just so darn risky sometimes......

Antonio · 07-26-2007, 06:20 PM

so basically your normal dealer can't read the information on it, they can just reflash. However, if they send back to Bosch, they can read it for them.

SKY-DOGY · 07-26-2007, 06:42 PM

If they really want to dig, as they might if you fry a motor. You are busted, WARRANTY VOID!
Not worth the risk to me!

SaturnSkyDude · 07-26-2007, 08:45 PM

Sounds good to me. I don't think that the dealer will go through all the trouble to pull the ECM and have it "read" by Bosch. Does anybody know if someone has dynoed a stock Redline with and without the tune installed? From what I have read it should be pretty easy to do since it only takes minutes to install and uninstall.

**JohnD** · 07-26-2007, 09:05 PM

If it gets outside of the local dealership you can expect problems. As soon as SPIRIT was found to have the bad compression the area guys and folks back east were on it. I had to claw and scratch to argue that an upgraded intake was not likely to cause an internal engine failure. The memo that they handed to me listed a bunch of things that would void a warranty. "Improved Intake" was not on the list, but an "ECM Retune" or "items that plug into the diagnostic port" clearly were.

Caveat Emptor.

plausibledenial · 07-27-2007, 11:41 AM

Wow, this is really unfortunate, especially in light of JohnD's experience with going outside the local dealership. I was looking forward to possibly tuning my car with this in a couple of months, but something like this definitely makes you think twice.

I guess it'll depend on how the cars that have it installed now are doing then - if none of them have blown up, then maybe.... So, please try not to blow up guys.

SKYtime · 07-27-2007, 11:55 AM

The risk is not that the re-tune or adjustment will cause a problem but that it will void the warranty if ANYTHING goes wrong with the engine. Very risky in my view.

BSRL · 07-27-2007, 12:17 PM

I'll take my chances on the tune with BSR. Afterall, they are the industry leader for tunes and have done extensive testing on their tune prior to releasing. Attached is a link to a very informative video they produced that explains the company and their processes.

http://en.bsrab.se/movies/2007uk/

Its long, about seven minutes and is better to save as then watch.

They have state of the art equipment and are well respected in Europe. I for one do not believe that BSR would put their reputation on the line for a tune without being absolutely sure it was safe for the vehicle.

LANDSCAPE · 07-27-2007, 12:18 PM

I think we can agree that JohnD had the ultimate in engine problems. So I think I would wonder, and John please answer if you can, did they send John's ECM out to be read by anyone? has it ever left the vehicle?

I would think that if nobody did all of that for John's catastrophic engine failure, they won't for most other issues.

But everyone needs to make the choice they can live with.

lostcause · 07-27-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSRL

I'll take my chances on the tune with BSR. Afterall, they are the industry leader for tunes and have done extensive testing on their tune prior to releasing. Attached is a link to a very informative video they produced that explains the company and their processes.

http://en.bsrab.se/movies/2007uk/

Its long, about seven minutes and is better to save as then watch.

They have state of the art equipment and are well respected in Europe. I for one do not believe that BSR would put their reputation on the line for a tune without being absolutely sure it was safe for the vehicle.

I don't think the issue is the BSR tune causing a problem. I think the issue is that if the you retune your ECM and by coincidence your engine has another problem, your warranty will essentially be void.

BSRL · 07-27-2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostcause

I don't think the issue is the BSR tune causing a problem. I think the issue is that if the you retune your ECM and by coincidence your engine has another problem, your warranty will essentially be void.

Yea, and I know JohnD has had problems but the likelyhood of that has got to be low and then them actually trying to say the tune did it (if they are even aware of it) would be even lower.

I'm not very risk averse but this to me is like buying bonds from the Government. I don't consider there to be much risk here to worry about it.

christianjax · 08-22-2007, 01:52 PM

I'd probably feel the risk were worth taking if BSR stepped up and would cover any engine failure not covered by warrantee that was caused by the tune.

**Rustyknight** · 08-22-2007, 08:07 PM

I think the operative part of the BSR response is that while the dealer cannot read the ECM program to determine it was none stock, the dealer can read the ECM re-program date. I do not think it would take a very sharp tech to notice a) The ECM was reprogrammed the day before you bring it in for a problem, b) The last ECM re-program date doesn't match any vehicle service dates in his computor, or c) On-star or someone reports a error code prior to bringing the car in, which subsequently disappers, because you reloaded the stock ECM program before you bring it in.

Any of the above could prove to be very suspicous, especially if the warranty work is major or high priced and the dealer does any knid of investigating to try and deny the claim.

Just my

xmicro_Redline · 08-22-2007, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LANDSCAPE

I think we can agree that JohnD had the ultimate in engine problems. So I think I would wonder, and John please answer if you can, did they send John's ECM out to be read by anyone? has it ever left the vehicle?

I would think that if nobody did all of that for John's catastrophic engine failure, they won't for most other issues.

But everyone needs to make the choice they can live with.

They had his car for a month, if they were investigating him, they wouldn't tell him about it. That would be stupid.

There are 2 types of people, modders and stock people. Some people think a few horsepower, that you'll never use unless you take it to race it, is worth taking a chance of blowing the engine, then they should do a re-tune.

Look what can it cost you, maybe $5000 for a new engine installed. It is not like you lose the whole car like you do if you crash it.

I think more horsepower is really stupid if you do not take it out on a track and race it. I also think that if you wanted a car to race something with a beefier engine would be better. Or get a Mallett conversion, and snap your neck while accelerating. I love speed, but all the horsepower milking is crazy to me. 0-60 in 5.5 is better than 89% of the cars on the road and way fast enough to beat out someone to the parkway entrance

.

This car can cruise easily to 125MPH. Where the heck are you going to use half the performance of the stock.

I say if you are a total power junkie, get a nice beefy 8 and small things like exhaust and other easy mods make a bigger difference. And those engines can handle more of a pounding. (Oh well that is my opinion on the topic, for what that is worth

)

I got my self on the list for a 2010 Camaro Z28 with 450 horses. It will look real nice next to my SKY in the garage!!

BlueSkyRL · 08-22-2007, 09:27 PM

Maybe I shouldn't say this but what the heck. The ECM's for the engines and major body systems I have programmed do not have a time stamp or way to know how many times it has been flashed. If I were to do it on a this ECM, it would have to have a real time clock with battery back up (I didn't see the parts on the GM/Bosch circuit board) for time stamping. BUT it would be possible to store the number of times the ECM has been flashed in the EEPROM section of memory and there may be a ID code stored for the device doing the programming. I will have to give this some more investigation

Antonio · 08-22-2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmicro_Redline

They had his car for a month, if they were investigating him, they wouldn't tell him about it. That would be stupid.

There are 2 types of people, modders and stock people. Some people think a few horsepower, that you'll never use unless you take it to race it, is worth taking a chance of blowing the engine, then they should do a re-tune.

Look what can it cost you, maybe $5000 for a new engine installed. It is not like you lose the whole car like you do if you crash it.

I think more horsepower is really stupid if you do not take it out on a track and race it. I also think that if you wanted a car to race something with a beefier engine would be better. Or get a Mallett conversion, and snap your neck while accelerating. I love speed, but all the horsepower milking is crazy to me. 0-60 in 5.5 is better than 89% of the cars on the road and way fast enough to beat out someone to the parkway entrance

.

This car can cruise easily to 125MPH. Where the heck are you going to use half the performance of the stock.

I say if you are a total power junkie, get a nice beefy 8 and small things like exhaust and other easy mods make a bigger difference. And those engines can handle more of a pounding. (Oh well that is my opinion on the topic, for what that is worth

)

I got my self on the list for a 2010 Camaro Z28 with 450 horses. It will look real nice next to my SKY in the garage!!

that last line kinda goes against everything you just said about not using a car's full capability because when do you need that much power.

In the same respect, why does anyone need a house with 5 bedrooms for a family of 3? Or how about a job that earns 100K a year vs. 50K a year. It's possible to live on 50K a year. It's just apples and oranges. Different strokes for different folks.

Getting a little more on topic......our Ecotec block has proven to be as tough as those big beefy V8's, if not more solid. Think of it this way. Our engine block is said to be able to widthstand DOUBLE it's original power without modifying internals. Let's take for example the LS7. 505 hp stock. Can the LS7 widthstand 1010hp without any internal mods....not likely.

High Output small motors are definitely more popular now than the big block cu. in. wars of the past. Engines are making more power with higher efficiency with less displacement. Both kinds of engines have their pros and cons, and that's why there'll always be the turbo 4 banger guys and the v8 blower guys. Ultimately, with enough cash, either can beat the other. You can laugh at the import tuner guys (hell i do when it's deserved, heh heh) but they manage to make impressive power with what they have.

I just say let them be. If anyone voids their warranty, then oops on them. You'll probably be snickering, but i bet a lot of the people that do void their warranties, know it before buying the aftermarket products so it probably won't even phase them if they're laughed at.

It's all good in the hood my brotha

I haven't nit picked your posts in a while

I'm sure you'll come back at me with something in the next 30 minutes

Oh.......and about the BSR reimbursement.....I'd assume it'd work like a normal warranty. You'd have to prove that THE TUNE ONLY wrecked your engine. If you can't, they'll blame it on GM, and it'll turn into a finger pointing match with you in the middle, and I wouldn't like that position at all.

christianjax · 08-23-2007, 07:34 AM

I too had to laugh at the hypocracy of the "you don't need that kind of power, and oh by the way, I'm on the list for a 450hp Camaro". Its all good. I'm on the same list.

There's 3 things in life you CAN'T have too much of:
1. Money
2. Sex
3. Horsepower

Note: plenty of 1 and 3 will get you all of 2 you want.

xmicro_Redline · 08-23-2007, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio

that last line kinda goes against everything you just said about not using a car's full capability because when do you need that much power.

In the same respect, why does anyone need a house with 5 bedrooms for a family of 3? Or how about a job that earns 100K a year vs. 50K a year. It's possible to live on 50K a year. It's just apples and oranges. Different strokes for different folks.

Getting a little more on topic......our Ecotec block has proven to be as tough as those big beefy V8's, if not more solid. Think of it this way. Our engine block is said to be able to widthstand DOUBLE it's original power without modifying internals. Let's take for example the LS7. 505 hp stock. Can the LS7 widthstand 1010hp without any internal mods....not likely.

High Output small motors are definitely more popular now than the big block cu. in. wars of the past. Engines are making more power with higher efficiency with less displacement. Both kinds of engines have their pros and cons, and that's why there'll always be the turbo 4 banger guys and the v8 blower guys. Ultimately, with enough cash, either can beat the other. You can laugh at the import tuner guys (hell i do when it's deserved, heh heh) but they manage to make impressive power with what they have.

I just say let them be. If anyone voids their warranty, then oops on them. You'll probably be snickering, but i bet a lot of the people that do void their warranties, know it before buying the aftermarket products so it probably won't even phase them if they're laughed at.

It's all good in the hood my brotha

I haven't nit picked your posts in a while

I'm sure you'll come back at me with something in the next 30 minutes

Oh.......and about the BSR reimbursement.....I'd assume it'd work like a normal warranty. You'd have to prove that THE TUNE ONLY wrecked your engine. If you can't, they'll blame it on GM, and it'll turn into a finger pointing match with you in the middle, and I wouldn't like that position at all.

Are you starting with me again!?!?! Ok let me give you a TIP (

), you will always be capable of more power with more strokes (pistons). I was just being sarcastic about where are you going to use the power

.

The Ecotec Engine is tied with, I believe, the Evo and something else for the most Horsepower per litre. I just wonder if GM could have edged the other companies output by retuning the car, they could have claimed THE ABSOLUTE MOST HP per Litre. Why didn't they, if the engine was so solid, makes me wonder about engine life if you tune?!?

Like I said, if people tune the engine to the point of failure, the worst case is you blow the engine and replace it for about $6000. The car is still good at that point. Not that big of a deal. It's not like you blow the engine and throw the whole $30,000.00 car in the trash, you just pay to fix it. So I understand why some are NOT concerned about warrantee.

I too love power, but everyone bought their SKY for their own reasons. I bought mine for a Weekend cruiser and the look of it. Yea, I push the envelope when possible and ALWAYS use the acceleration, but I am of the school that you use a car for what it was designed for. The Camaro is designed to LAY DOWN RUBBER, as is the Corvette and Mustangs. The SKY is designed as a Cruiser with pep and great handling, not to out power a Mustang (although I have stomped a few stock GT's). Maybe I am getting old, but squeezing another 50 HP out of the SKY just doesn't do it for me. The power is adequite for what it was designed for, and keeping it stock will allow me a better chance to enjoy this car for the next 30 years and sell it for $300,000.00. Like the 68 Camaro Buyers that bought their cars for $3000 and sell then for 10X more at $30,000+.

So If the people tune their cars and we get next to each other and race, you will get me by a car length or so, but who cares. But like you said Antonio, to each his own and that IS what makes the world go round.

But I still think drive up, pick up, waiters should only get $3 damn it!

07-26-2007, 05:48 PM	#2 (permalink)
SKYtime First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,125 My Photos: (0)	Hmmmmmmm...life is just so darn risky sometimes...... __________________ Silver Graphite 2.4L Prem Trim/Blk Lthr/Blk Top Manual Trans. 6-disk Monsoon System Chrome Wheels LSD Pre-Order: 4/06 Order Date: 9/27/06 To Dealer: 10/17/06 Picked up: 10/18/06 VIN: 14489 No mand. add-ons/MSRP Codename: JUSTICE

07-26-2007, 06:20 PM	#3 (permalink)
Antonio Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 1,651 My Photos: (6)	so basically your normal dealer can't read the information on it, they can just reflash. However, if they send back to Bosch, they can read it for them. __________________ HAD - '07 Redline -292 whp & 327 wtq - SOLD :( HAVE - '02 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 - STOCK....for now http://youtube.com/profile?user=talkaboutblue NASSOA Founding Member

07-26-2007, 06:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
SKY-DOGY Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: North of the equator Posts: 172 My Photos: (0)	yep If they really want to dig, as they might if you fry a motor. You are busted, WARRANTY VOID! Not worth the risk to me! __________________ 2008 Sky RedLine, Yellow, single disc. Zero mods. # 203 of 2008. 2008 Saturn Aura XE V6. Bronze Pewter. 2007 Dodge Ram 3500 extended cab dually diesel. 2007 Kawasaki Mule 3010 4X4 Last edited by SKY-DOGY : 07-26-2007 at 06:42 PM. Reason: grammer

07-26-2007, 08:45 PM	#5 (permalink)
SaturnSkyDude First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Northeast, OH Posts: 352 My Photos: (18)	Sounds good to me. I don't think that the dealer will go through all the trouble to pull the ECM and have it "read" by Bosch. Does anybody know if someone has dynoed a stock Redline with and without the tune installed? From what I have read it should be pretty easy to do since it only takes minutes to install and uninstall. __________________ Drove My Redline home top down on 12/12/06 In 60 Degree weather In Akron, Ohio !! Silver Pearl / Black Leather 5 Speed Limited-Slip Differential Chrome Wheels 6-Disc CD Monsoon / Ipod Nano Stubby B Antenna K&N air filter

07-26-2007, 09:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
JohnD First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,477 My Photos: (73)	If it gets outside of the local dealership you can expect problems. As soon as SPIRIT was found to have the bad compression the area guys and folks back east were on it. I had to claw and scratch to argue that an upgraded intake was not likely to cause an internal engine failure. The memo that they handed to me listed a bunch of things that would void a warranty. "Improved Intake" was not on the list, but an "ECM Retune" or "items that plug into the diagnostic port" clearly were. Caveat Emptor. __________________ First:"BABY"* Silver Pearl 9 May 06* Then:"SPIRIT"* Black Onyx Red Line 25 Oct 06* Check out My Photos!

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07-27-2007, 11:41 AM	#7 (permalink)
plausibledenial Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 365 My Photos: (3)	Wow, this is really unfortunate, especially in light of JohnD's experience with going outside the local dealership. I was looking forward to possibly tuning my car with this in a couple of months, but something like this definitely makes you think twice. I guess it'll depend on how the cars that have it installed now are doing then - if none of them have blown up, then maybe.... So, please try not to blow up guys. __________________ Leeann sunburst yellow redline manual/leather/monsoon/solo mach exhaust 3M film/skyshield/black-badged/lil'chromies deposit: 11.24.06 \| home: 04.14.07

07-27-2007, 11:55 AM	#8 (permalink)
SKYtime First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,125 My Photos: (0)	The risk is not that the re-tune or adjustment will cause a problem but that it will void the warranty if ANYTHING goes wrong with the engine. Very risky in my view. __________________ Silver Graphite 2.4L Prem Trim/Blk Lthr/Blk Top Manual Trans. 6-disk Monsoon System Chrome Wheels LSD Pre-Order: 4/06 Order Date: 9/27/06 To Dealer: 10/17/06 Picked up: 10/18/06 VIN: 14489 No mand. add-ons/MSRP Codename: JUSTICE

07-27-2007, 12:17 PM	#9 (permalink)
BSRL Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 746 My Photos: (2)	BSR Tune I'll take my chances on the tune with BSR. Afterall, they are the industry leader for tunes and have done extensive testing on their tune prior to releasing. Attached is a link to a very informative video they produced that explains the company and their processes. http://en.bsrab.se/movies/2007uk/ Its long, about seven minutes and is better to save as then watch. They have state of the art equipment and are well respected in Europe. I for one do not believe that BSR would put their reputation on the line for a tune without being absolutely sure it was safe for the vehicle. __________________ My Car Domain Page: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3051777

07-27-2007, 12:18 PM	#10 (permalink)
LANDSCAPE Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Tampa, FL USA Posts: 330 My Photos: (2)	I think we can agree that JohnD had the ultimate in engine problems. So I think I would wonder, and John please answer if you can, did they send John's ECM out to be read by anyone? has it ever left the vehicle? I would think that if nobody did all of that for John's catastrophic engine failure, they won't for most other issues. But everyone needs to make the choice they can live with. __________________ Landscape REDLINE #131984 Forest Green / Tan N tires Brake light pulse V2 WR Seat and Lumbar Mod Polished SS IC pipes Color match eng. cover VDI Doors Solo-Mach Lil Chromies, Chrome Domes, Billet Grill Dashhawk Green Neon Underbody

08-22-2007, 01:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
christianjax Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Jacksonville Posts: 28 My Photos: (0)	I'd probably feel the risk were worth taking if BSR stepped up and would cover any engine failure not covered by warrantee that was caused by the tune. __________________ 1999 Trans Am, Black-Auto 0-60mph 4.8 sec 2006 Dodge Charger Daytona Torred #724 Yeah, it has a HEMI. Hopefully 2008 Redline SOON!

08-22-2007, 08:07 PM	#14 (permalink)
Rustyknight Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 886 My Photos: (9)	I think the operative part of the BSR response is that while the dealer cannot read the ECM program to determine it was none stock, the dealer can read the ECM re-program date. I do not think it would take a very sharp tech to notice a) The ECM was reprogrammed the day before you bring it in for a problem, b) The last ECM re-program date doesn't match any vehicle service dates in his computor, or c) On-star or someone reports a error code prior to bringing the car in, which subsequently disappers, because you reloaded the stock ECM program before you bring it in. Any of the above could prove to be very suspicous, especially if the warranty work is major or high priced and the dealer does any knid of investigating to try and deny the claim. Just my __________________ Rusty Bluestone Sky Black Leather and Roof Serial #11805 - Traded 8-2-2007 Midnight Blue RL Black Leather and Roof Serial #05941 - Picked Up 8-20-2007 What is the source of your user name: http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8236

08-22-2007, 09:27 PM	#16 (permalink)
BlueSkyRL First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Up North! Posts: 975 My Photos: (0)	Maybe I shouldn't say this but what the heck. The ECM's for the engines and major body systems I have programmed do not have a time stamp or way to know how many times it has been flashed. If I were to do it on a this ECM, it would have to have a real time clock with battery back up (I didn't see the parts on the GM/Bosch circuit board) for time stamping. BUT it would be possible to store the number of times the ECM has been flashed in the EEPROM section of memory and there may be a ID code stored for the device doing the programming. I will have to give this some more investigation

08-23-2007, 07:34 AM	#18 (permalink)
christianjax Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Jacksonville Posts: 28 My Photos: (0)	I too had to laugh at the hypocracy of the "you don't need that kind of power, and oh by the way, I'm on the list for a 450hp Camaro". Its all good. I'm on the same list. There's 3 things in life you CAN'T have too much of: 1. Money 2. Sex 3. Horsepower Note: plenty of 1 and 3 will get you all of 2 you want. __________________ 1999 Trans Am, Black-Auto 0-60mph 4.8 sec 2006 Dodge Charger Daytona Torred #724 Yeah, it has a HEMI. Hopefully 2008 Redline SOON!