ECM adjustments to mods

[eezridr]

I am looking to buy a new Redline and am looking to try and achieve that 10 lb. / 1 hp ratio reliably. I will have to get around 300 hp.
From what I have read, with a CAI and a good cat back exhaust this may be achieveable however I have also read these gains are short lived due to the fact the ECM will eventually "recognize" these modifications and adjust accordindly in order to get the car back into the origional state.
Do we all need to wait unitl a flash program is available for this vehicle before realizing long term results from after market mods?
Additionally; Are headers worth the addition $$ when I install a cat back?

I have notioced that "OZ" has a rear wheel option on their superleggra line (9" wide) that is designed with the correct offset to allow a 275/40/18 tire on the Sky. Has anyone tried installing this size tire? Is there sufficient wheel well space?

EEZRIDR

[BlueSkyRL]

Originally Posted by eezridr

I am looking to buy a new Redline and am looking to try and achieve that 10 lb. / 1 hp ratio reliably. I will have to get around 300 hp.
From what I have read, with a CAI and a good cat back exhaust this may be achieveable however I have also read these gains are short lived due to the fact the ECM will eventually "recognize" these modifications and adjust accordindly in order to get the car back into the origional state.
Do we all need to wait unitl a flash program is available for this vehicle before realizing long term results from after market mods?
Additionally; Are headers worth the addition $$ when I install a cat back?

I have notioced that "OZ" has a rear wheel option on their superleggra line (9" wide) that is designed with the correct offset to allow a 275/40/18 tire on the Sky. Has anyone tried installing this size tire? Is there sufficient wheel well space?

EEZRIDR

I can answer a couple of your questions. With a turbo, a header is not needed or probably even possible with our configuration. Our Rl's do readjust the power band with any mods now, but there is a increase in warmer weather with the Intercooler update and exhaust because the engine does not run as hot so the ecm does not "detune" for the heat. I think that makes sense??

[Jaysmith2000]

Forget the CAI, there's no benefit. To get to 300 add the exhaust and intercooler. I went with RPI's...

[eezridr]

The RPI exhaust system was what I was looking at for that application. I was not aware of their intercooler product. I am sure there is significant work in that installation. I will take a look.
Here again, the first gentleman that responded confirmed some past information that the factory ECM will eventually recognize the modifications and adapt the system to negate their positive atributes.
I believe these mods would be of significant long term benefit when the ecm can be programmed to take advantage of their respective effects.

To tell the truth I was willing to wait until the 2nd generation of this vehicle came available which I suspect would include a 2.4 liter turbo motor that would deliver 300HP at the crank.
GM is not unlike any other auto mfg. They are not going to let a sub unit as Saturn deliver a product that would up stage their king of the hill "corvette" in performance.
Today that car has 436HP and will go to 60 mph in 4 seconds. The Sky Redline will not come close to that performance without a serious engine and matching drive train mods. Then reliability?????
Saturn can deliver a bit more potent Redline without infringing on Corvette territory. I am just not sure when Gen 2 is going to be available and I am a bit anixious. I really like the styling of the Sky. A simple open air roadster.
0-60 mph in 5 sec would be nice. That is usually achievable in a 10lb / 1 hp ratio if you can get the power to the ground. With gas at or above $3.00 / gallon, a 4 cylinder sounds just fine.
Thanks for your input!

EEZRIDR

[eezridr]

I did a little additional research on this forum as well as a trip to the BSR web page.
I believe I can achieve my power goals by installing the RPI exhausts, intercooler and adjusting the ECM with the BSR; PPG unit.
I just wish GM had a programer. I am sure you may void any warranties with the BSR unit.
Many times these programmers recommend a new thermostat that allows a little more flow in order to compensarte for the additional heat generated by the power gains. Does BSR offer that option?

I also noticed some nice forged wheels on the RPI web page!

EEZRIDR

[cavedyvr]

eezridr,
Be careful. As I understand it (and I may be very wrong) the current BSR ECM flash is designed for a stock Sky.

[forkee]

Originally Posted by cavedyvr

eezridr,
Be careful. As I understand it (and I may be very wrong) the current BSR ECM flash is designed for a stock Sky.

people have reported getting worse performance out of their retune if they have a lot of other mods because its designed for a stock rl. im pretty sure they will come out with adjustment tunes later on so you would have to wait for that if you want to mix and match your mods. the only modification that has shown improvement with the bsr tune is an upgraded intercooler.

http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/s...highlight=tune



Run 001 is stone stock.
Run 002 is with PPC Tuner.
Run 004 is with PPC Tuner and Intercooler Upgrade.

All runs are with stock airbox, stock exhaust and cat and stock intercooler pipes. We've found in our testing that these stock parts have considerable airflow capacity, which is not unusual in today's factory turbo cars.

Consider...In our very successful SRT-4 Turbo development program, we made well in excess of 300 WHP with the stock exhaust and airbox in place! It's not like it used to be years ago, when these parts were the most restrictive pieces on the car, and justified immediate replacement. The OEM engineers have learned a lot, and much of it from aftermarket companies like ours! Couple this with the fact that today's very sensitive PCM's can be quite annoyed by the gross airflow changes created by air intake and exhaust changes, and it all adds up to a strong argument to not deviate from that stock equipment formula until one absolutely has to in order to support ever higher power levels.

[eezridr]

Gentlemen,

All of you are doing a great job of what appears to be saving me money! Thanks!
When I went to the BSR web page, you select the manufacturer you are interetsed in a programer for and then the model. Under the Saturn badge, only the sky 2.0 Redline is listed. You can take a look at their graph depicting gains with this model.
I did not check on the price opf the programer. Does anyone have a clue?
I have bought hypertech programmers for a few of my past pickup trucks.
I "think" all they do is advance the timing a bit so you can run your vehicle a bit leaner without detonation gaining a little hp. But they do suggest using their thermostat because the OEM stock unit will let the vehicle run about 10-15 degrees above usual. Their is another benefit and that is adjusting the speedometer to tire size alterations.
As I have posted in the past, I am looking at acquiring a Redline; Correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe the car has a temperature gauge (it should!). With any of these power enhancing mods, I would like to monitor the temperature.

EEZRIDR

[samunoz1]

Originally Posted by eezridr

As I have posted in the past, I am looking at acquiring a Redline; Correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe the car has a temperature gauge (it should!). With any of these power enhancing mods, I would like to monitor the temperature.

EEZRIDR

I am pretty sure in the info-center there is an engine temperature just before the boost meter. Remember all those mods will add weight and while giving you more hp could possibly leave you at the same hp:weight ratio.

[Jaysmith2000]

Be sure to take a look at the dyno charts RPI has of the intercooler/exhaust upgrade. You'll hit the 300 mark with those upgrades to the fly, but just under to the wheels. I think it was 276 to the wheels, but would need to double check. Can anyone CONFIRM that the ECM will adjust back down to the stock HP? I've heard folks talk about it, but then I read all over the place about how much additional power folks feel/have with different upgrades.

Also, the BSR tune is $995 last time I looked at Hahn. I'm going to hold out for the GM upgrade through Saturn motorsports. They have various tunes depending on the upgrades you've made to your car and this will keep your warranty. They have it up there for sale, but I don't think it's actually available yet? Does anyone know?

[seal9]

From the info we are getting the 2nd Gen Skys will have the 2.4 N/A at 177hp the 2.4DI at 185hp and the 2.0 DI Turbo at 260Hp no 300 hp in the works for the next few years unless you do it yourself. The BSR tune is based on the stock 2.0 but we have an company that offers the BSR tune in the U.S. that will have a stage 2 BSR tune soon....For the Up mods.....Seal9

[MidniteBlues]

Originally Posted by Jaysmith2000

Be sure to take a look at the dyno charts RPI has of the intercooler/exhaust upgrade. You'll hit the 300 mark with those upgrades to the fly, but just under to the wheels. I think it was 276 to the wheels, but would need to double check. Can anyone CONFIRM that the ECM will adjust back down to the stock HP? I've heard folks talk about it, but then I read all over the place about how much additional power folks feel/have with different upgrades.

Also, the BSR tune is $995 last time I looked at Hahn. I'm going to hold out for the GM upgrade through Saturn motorsports. They have various tunes depending on the upgrades you've made to your car and this will keep your warranty. They have it up there for sale, but I don't think it's actually available yet? Does anyone know?

Sorry, you are misinformed. Saturn motorsports IS NOT affiliated with Saturn OR GM at all, AND mods installed/sold by them fall under all other 3rd party dealers of mods. Their stuff can also void your warranty.. Check out post #5, comes directly from Saturn motorsports owner..

Saturn Motorsports releases Sky Redline 2.0L Performance Tuned ECM

[Jaysmith2000]

Originally Posted by MidniteBlues

Sorry, you are misinformed. Saturn motorsports IS NOT affiliated with Saturn OR GM at all, AND mods installed/sold by them fall under all other 3rd party dealers of mods. Their stuff can also void your warranty.. Check out post #5, comes directly from Saturn motorsports owner..

Saturn Motorsports releases Sky Redline 2.0L Performance Tuned ECM

I didn't realize they weren't affiliated. What's weird is the dealership here in Vegas (Saturn of Henderson) that I bought my car at told me to go to that site to find my upgrades, tell them what I want and they will order/install and it won't void my warranty.... Is this a dealership by dealership thing or is the guy that told me to do this just wrong?

[Antonio]

Originally Posted by Jaysmith2000

I didn't realize they weren't affiliated. What's weird is the dealership here in Vegas (Saturn of Henderson) that I bought my car at told me to go to that site to find my upgrades, tell them what I want and they will order/install and it won't void my warranty.... Is this a dealership by dealership thing or is the guy that told me to do this just wrong?

it's dealership to dealership

[boom]

Originally Posted by Jaysmith2000

I didn't realize they weren't affiliated. What's weird is the dealership here in Vegas (Saturn of Henderson) that I bought my car at told me to go to that site to find my upgrades, tell them what I want and they will order/install and it won't void my warranty.... Is this a dealership by dealership thing or is the guy that told me to do this just wrong?

out of curiosity did he tell you that while he was selling you the car?

[chipshot]

Originally Posted by eezridr

I did a little additional research on this forum as well as a trip to the BSR web page.
I believe I can achieve my power goals by installing the RPI exhausts, intercooler and adjusting the ECM with the BSR; PPG unit.
I just wish GM had a programer. I am sure you may void any warranties with the BSR unit.
Many times these programmers recommend a new thermostat that allows a little more flow in order to compensarte for the additional heat generated by the power gains. Does BSR offer that option?

I also noticed some nice forged wheels on the RPI web page!

EEZRIDR

saw ur comments on mods & sounded like you know ur stuff... I just ordered a redline today & ordered every engine performance option (or so they said) available... here's what they are dishing out per the options specialist there: (his email to me)
"Sky Redline performance tuned ECM: Performance ECM has proven to virtually eliminate turbo lag and increase horse power and torque throughout the power band. Variable valve timing is enhanced, fueling and timing is improved, adds 25 hp with 50ft lbs of torque, gives immediate boost as opposed to stock which slowly increases boost. Automatic shift points changed for sharper shift points. Sky Redline performance tuned ECM have shown an estimated 12% increase in wheel horse power and 15% increase in torque.
Sky Redline 2.0L Intake & ICP System: Saturn Sky Single Filter Intake system allows the engine to breathe more easily. With an estimated 14HP increase in wheel horse power the single filter technology out performed the competition. Sky Redline intake system includes: High flow intake and filter system from turbo, both left and right larger diameter ICP (InterCooler Piping). The Redline intake system design produced optimal response and performance. *6061 T6 Aluminum Intake Tubing with Polished finish. *HoseTechniques Silicone hose w/Nomex *Carbon Plated T-bolt clamps *Fujita Super Flow High Performance Air Filter *TAG Welded bracketry *Vibration Mounts
Sky 2.0L Big-Bore Throttle Body: Big bore Throttle Bodies are professionally machined for maximum air flow. Designed to relieve air restrictions and improve throttle response. new butterfly, greatly improved throttle response, no air restrictions into manifold, 3-5 hp improvement.
Sky Dual Tip Catback Exhaust System: The Sky exhaust systems helped increase low-end torque and high-end horse power. Made of stainless steel tubing with semi-polished mufflers and includes welded on custom chrome-plated exhaust tips. 2.5 inch piping, catback, high flow muffler, no restrictions, all mandrel bent, lifetime warranty, 10-12 hp
Upgraded direct fit intercooler: approx 20hp gain, 3 times the size of stock cooling surface, thicker core, aluminum.

If all items above are installed the performance upgrade will give approx: 300hp to the crank (270 hp to the wheels) and 280ft lbs of torque. To compare the stock specs are: 260 hp at the crank (218 hp to the wheels) and 200 ft lbs of torque."

I am no motorhead but would like a reliable performance car without worrying about voiding the warranty.

Your thoughts? (but not too technical)

Thanks.

[GeniusInABottle]

SaturnMotorSports is not affiliated with Saturn/GM. Parts from them are no more covered under warranty than any other 3rd party.

[Jaysmith2000]

Originally Posted by boom

out of curiosity did he tell you that while he was selling you the car?

Nope, this was the guy in their performance area. He had no idea if I just bought the Sky or had one for a year.... So, the parts wouldn't be under warranty (which is fine), but everything else is ok. The only thing I want to do now is tune the ECM for my uprades. That's it and I'm done (edit: other than cosmetic upgrades).

[eezridr]

I sure am learning allot through this forum. I did not know the method by which BSR achieved their gains. It would appear by the posts that it is by boost (23-24 PSI & allowing the motor to spin tp 7K RPM). I could never figure out why the std. Sky 2.4 liter unit would spin to 7K with a longer stroke that the 2.0 turbo. This is all based on piston speed; Piston speed; not rpm is typically a limiting factor. You may note big Harley V twins will redline about 6200 rpm where your typical rice burner crotch rocket will spin from 12K-14K rpm but the Harleys V twins stroke is twice that of the rice burner. Their piston speed is about the same at their respective redlines.
The Sky redline will have a slower piston speed that the 2.4 liter motor at any given RPM since it has a shorter stroke. Here again I do not know why GM / Saturn decided to limit the redlines top engine speed to 6300 rpm?
I bet the car sounds great at 7K!!!!
I am still concerned about the heat issue!!! You are going to have to do something to contol that water temperature if you take the boost that high.

Someone had mentioned traction issues on wet surfaces in a post. All OEM tires are compromises.
If you are spending money on these power upgrades then spend some to get the power to the ground.
I have done some research on rear tire capacity on this vehicle. Many wheel manufaturers offer a 18" X 9" rim that will accept a 275 X 40 X 18" tire which is the same height as the OEM 245 X 45 X 18" units.
Buy some new rims (OZ makes some that are not in the stratosphere and are superior to OEM units and less $$ than the chrome offerings from Saturn. In fact you can but 4 OZ superleggra rims and two new high performance rear tires from Pirelli. Michelin or Goodyear for less than the $1800.00 Saturn wants for their best wheels.
If you get Michelin Pilots, Goodyear F1's, or Pirellis best tires (probably have a tread wear of less than 300) they will help with your rear end traction considerably.
Use your OEM back tires for a replacement set for your front end when they wear out.

EEZRIDR