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Old 02-22-2013, 12:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Rob kills it again with an engineering answer. LOL
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Well written rob, 2 questions, what about the free mods, waste gate rod adjustment, solenoid bypass? Care to share an opinion on those? Miller your thoughts are more than welcome as well, did alot of reading on those never saw any solid proof of damage or gain
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Leppyxr2 View Post
Well written rob, 2 questions, what about the free mods, waste gate rod adjustment, solenoid bypass? Care to share an opinion on those? Miller your thoughts are more than welcome as well, did alot of reading on those never saw any solid proof of damage or gain
Don't mess with your wastegate. People used to do that back in the day of OBD1 where we had less control of engine parameters. With advancements in hardware and software(OBD2 and HPT, Trifecta etc) you won't need to do that.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:03 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Don't mess with your waste-gate. People used to do that back in the day of OBD1 where we had less control of engine parameters. With advancements in hardware and software(OBD2 and HPT, Trifecta etc) you won't need to do that.
And I warned them back then when the "experimenters" came back whining about that the car had re-learned and adjusted itself to appropriate settings, "detuned" their manual tune and the ECM backed off from them messing with the waste gate adjustment. Or they started getting whacked over their collective heads with ECM code errors. I was handed my head back then to bug out and "that I didn't know sh!t about it".. It was funny watching them scramble trying to put that adjustment BACK to factory.. and I said "I told ya so to leave that alone!!!
All they were doing was screwing up BIG time the factory calibration for the turbo.. It was funny, some even had to take the car in to the dealer to see if they could "re-adjust" the waste gate..afterwards some of the cars never ran the same, or so they claimed..
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:26 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Larger intercooler does not add any HP, but there is evidence that on the track or for highly tuned or modified cars that generate a lot more heat can see some improvement. My personal experience is that going to a larger IC provided no impact but did empty my wallet and caused me to spend a day interfacing with the car.
Question for you Rob: After installing the IC, did you notice the turbo spool up time being quicker? Or any other observations of changed behavior?

I have a Werks Street IC, that has been sitting in my basement for over a couple years. Every time I get about ready to put it in, I frag another OEM IC and it ends up getting replaced under warranty. The OEM really is a POS, in my humble opinion. But, I have to admit that the last one they put in seems to be holding up. It has lasted longer than either of the previous two.

There is a known pressure drop of about 1-2 PSI across the OEM IC. And the reason for my question as to rather you noticed any behavior change, is because theoretically the aftermarket should remove that pressure drop issue and allow the Turbo to spin slower, to achieve the same end result of PSI at the manifold. Although one would probably not observe any difference in the boost read out, because that info is pulled off the TMAP on the downstream side: The turbo pressure on the upstream side should be 1-2 PSI lower, to achieve the same commanded boost. Thereby resulting in lower Turbo RPM speeds (which is good for Turbo longevity) and a slightly quicker spool time.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:47 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Leppyxr2 View Post
Well written rob, 2 questions, what about the free mods, waste gate rod adjustment, solenoid bypass? Care to share an opinion on those? Miller your thoughts are more than welcome as well, did alot of reading on those never saw any solid proof of damage or gain
I did not do any of the mentioned mods but have observed results when others have.

There were a number of people who did the wastegate rod length change and many lived to regret it.

Questions about the "WASTEGATE MOD" - Pontiac Solstice Forum

The problem is that if you go a little bit, it seems to improve performence but if you go a little bit further it really screws up performance. And there is no way to reset the wastegate actuation arm length. No GM approved procedure. They are apparently set at the manufacturer individually using a flow bench. Once the nut is locked down, the only option is to try and return to the same setting by visually looking at the rod.

People who have done the wastegate mod have experienced problems and gone back to GM to get them addressed and had a big hassel because they point at the tweaked adjustment and say they cant fix the car. So sorry.

The jury is also out about any improvements that result on a non-tuned car because of the way the ECM manages engine peramaters.

From all my reading the first thing you must have is a tune. Either the GMPP which provides significant performance without stressing the car, or a third party tune of which there are several. The second thing is get a high flow cat. It definately adds to hp.

You can get to 300+ WHP with the above easily. The car will run great, and will last a long time.

It is becoming ever clearer that as you get nearer to the 400 WHP region, the standard transmission becomes the weak link. See the threads about the 2-3 syncros going on a lot of tuned cars.

As you get above 400 hp, if you go to stickier tires and can actually hook up, then the rear axles become the weak link after the transmission has failed.

My personal choice was to go with a tune and hardware that got me a good honest 305 WHP and enjoy the much quicker and faster than stock car. When I decided to go above that power level I chose to go to the LS conversion because it makes the drive train bullet proof. As long as you do not put on really sticky tires, you cant hurt anything that is susceptible to damage and the rest you just cant hurt.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:50 PM   #22 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=GS Stage 1;581296]Question for you Rob: After installing the IC, did you notice the turbo spool up time being quicker? Or any other observations of changed behavior?

QUOTE]

I did not notice any difference at all. When I put the Dejon IC on it was several months prior to adding the GMPP tune so any positive impact it might have had was masked by the ECM learning down.

Once I put on the GMPP tune, the increase in power was very noticable and I did see a measurable improvement in power over the course of the first few key cycles. But I could not say how much was attributable to the IC alone.
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:09 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Interesting:

If I manage to get around to installing my IC this spring: I will try my best to make observations. Since I have been running the OEM with the GMPP tune for over 3 years, I am very aware of the current performance. Hopefully I will be able to observe any behavioral changes. If I was going to be really scientific about it, I would do a Dyno run, then change the IC and run again on the same day. But since I freak out watching my car running over a 100 MPH while sitting still, don't think I am going there again. I really doubt if an IC could ever effect peak HP anyway. About the only thing I could see it do is possibly move the torque curve to the left just a bit; if indeed the new IC does remove the 1-2 PSI log jamb of the OEM IC. Which may be noticeable on the street, with the old butt Dyno.

GM did come out with an official reset of the WG rod, after having a few cases of the locking nuts coming loose and resulting under boost codes:

(Going from memory here)
The instructions posted to the Techs are:
1. Loosen counter set locking nut and spin out of the way to the right.
2. Back off the left nut until no pressure is felt on the rod from the diaphragm.
3. Now spin the left nut back to the right until you just feel the spring pressure from the diaphragm and stop.
4. Now turn the left nut 2 (or 3, can't remember) more complete revolutions.
5. Lastly, spin counter set locking nut on the right, back towards the adjustment and set tight.
6. Be sure to use lock tight on both nuts.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:14 PM   #24 (permalink)
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...
(Going from memory here)
The instructions posted to the Techs are:
1. Loosen counter set locking nut and spin out of the way to the right.
2. Back off the left nut until no pressure is felt on the rod from the diaphragm.
3. Now spin the left nut back to the right until you just feel the spring pressure from the diaphragm and stop.
4. Now turn the left nut 2 (or 3, can't remember) more complete revolutions.
5. Lastly, spin counter set locking nut on the right, back towards the adjustment and set tight.
6. Be sure to use lock tight on both nuts.
they never could get it back precisely for that particular turbo in the field.. Remember those WG settings were setup when the turbo was built at the manufacture on a bench.. Each turbos setting were unique as I recall..
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:01 AM   #25 (permalink)
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So thats a big negative on the wastgate mod, what about the solenoid bypass mod?
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:43 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Another big negative....
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:36 PM   #27 (permalink)
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So thats a big negative on the wastgate mod, what about the solenoid bypass mod?
It's best to just not do any old school rigging with this nice modern vehicle.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:46 AM   #28 (permalink)
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@Leppyxr2 Thanks for the description of what a "extensive mod" is. I most definitely will not be doing anything like this in 2013. Even changing the exhaust or other general bolt-ons seem like a stretch for me.

@roadstersol "I can now break the rear loose in third gear with not problem." -- that sounds amazing. What Trifecta tune do you have? Canned or custom?

@miller11386 Heh, thanks, I'm sure I can figure out the HPT Scanner. Unfortunately, my vette and viper are still en-route so I won't be able to use it all around (I'm kidding; I only have the Sky).

@Rob the Elder Wow... thanks for the details. That certainly breaks it down to raw steel. I've been curious about a bunch of mods; if they actually do anything or not. So... a Tune (GM or other) + high flow cat = 300 rear wheel HP? And what does that equate to at the crank?

@40rty You are putting out some serious power with your set-up. What's the cost / time investment for something like that? Incremental, or an end goal from the get go?

Ok so my current understanding is (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. GM Tune is a "canned" tune, but is known to put out 290hp/340ft-lbs. ~$700
2. Trifecta's budget tune is also a "canned" tune ... I presume similar to the GM Tune. ~$300
3. Trifecta's custom tune is for my car. But my car is bone stock. Can I really expect a vast difference over the budget, which is already made for a stock? ~$500
4. HP Tuner is a custom tune, but recommended if I have extensive mods, which I certainly don't (and won't have for well over a year, if ever). What can I expect from a stock roadster + HP Tuner? Price?

I almost always find myself talking about torque with the Sky. Most talk about HP. But I'm presuming that the torque levels are staying on par with all of the set-ups that we've mentioned? (I would guess it's the 260 ft-lb flat-curve that gets the stock Red Line to 60 mph in 5.2 seconds [C&D].)
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:52 PM   #29 (permalink)
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4. HP Tuner is a custom tune, but recommended if I have extensive mods, which I certainly don't (and won't have for well over a year, if ever). What can I expect from a stock roadster + HP Tuner? Price?
The scanner is $500. The tune can cost 200-500 depending on who does it.

For a purely stock car with no real mods, I would just slap a canned tune on, however if you ever want to change your setup, the HPT is probably a better option.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:50 PM   #30 (permalink)
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hpt is the best option period, stock or fully modded.
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