A question to the SCCA

[snaponbob]

If anyone is interested in autocrossing their Sky, I sent this the SCCA.

To: "Doug Gill" <DGill@scca.com>
Subject: Stock class suspension upgrades

The Sky Redline I have ordered comes with the only factory installed suspension available (FE2) with no factory upgrades. On G.M.s Saturn web site there is a factory authorized, dealer installed, sport suspension. It has recalibrated Bilstiens, firmer springs, and stiffer sway bars. Since these are a G.M. offered package (equal to the Solstice Z0K parts) can they be legally installed on a stock class Sky?

Bob Buxbaum
Lee's Summit, Mo.

I'll let you know the response.

[snaponbob]

This is the answer I expected. Bummer.

Subject: RE: Stock class suspension upgrades
From: "Doug Gill" <DGill@scca.com>
To: "Bob Buxbaum" <snaponbob@comcast.net>

Hi, Bob,

The only Stock-eligible components are ones that can come on the car
from the manufacturer. Can the car be delivered to the dealer from the
manufacturer with the components already installed? If the answer is
"no," then the components are not Stock eligible.

If the Saturn dealer cannot get the Sky Redline delivered from GM with
the desired springs and anti-roll bars, then they are not legal.


From the Solo Rules (page 56):
12.4 STANDARD PART
An item of standard or optional equipment that could have been ordered
with the car, installed on the factory production line, and delivered
through a dealer in the United States. Dealer-installed options or
deletions (except as required by factory directives), no matter how
common or what their origin, are not included in this definition. This
definition does not allow the updating or backdating of parts.


It's the same with the Mini Cooper S concerning the
manufacturer-authorized JCW kit (didn't even affect the warranty).
Before 2006, the JCW upgrades were only available as a dealer-installed
"option" and were not allowed in Stock. In 2006, the Mini dealer can get
the JCW kit pre-installed so the Mini Cooper S w/ JCW kit is now
eligible for Stock. The 2005 and 2006 models are identical except the
2005 is not legal for Stock. It seems kind of silly on the surface
except the Mini is the exception. If the Solo Rules are changed, it
would be a headache to determine where the ripple effect would stop. The
SEB believes it best to leave it as it is.

There are also other manufacturers that offer manufacturer-authorized,
dealer-installed-only performance components (Honda, Toyota, etc).

Later,

- Doug

Doug Gill
SCCA Solo Technical Manager
P O Box 19400
Topeka, KS 66619-0400
1-800-770-2055

[Mallard]

Originally Posted by snaponbob

If anyone is interested in autocrossing their Sky, I sent this the SCCA.

To: "Doug Gill" <DGill@scca.com>
Subject: Stock class suspension upgrades

The Sky Redline I have ordered comes with the only factory installed suspension available (FE2) with no factory upgrades. On G.M.s Saturn web site there is a factory authorized, dealer installed, sport suspension. It has recalibrated Bilstiens, firmer springs, and stiffer sway bars. Since these are a G.M. offered package (equal to the Solstice Z0K parts) can they be legally installed on a stock class Sky?

Bob Buxbaum
Lee's Summit, Mo.

I'll let you know the response.

You are incorrect in one of your statements. The stock Redline suspension is the same as the Solstice Z0K. The 'dealer installed performance suspension' is from GM Performance Parts and has stiffer shocks and springs then the Z0k/GXP/Redline suspension.

[snaponbob]

I stand corrected. But I was taking a swing at the SCCA to see what could be done.

[KappaMan]

Posted this over at solsticeforum - also posting here

according to the rules, you COULD (tho expensive) buy the kit, but only use the shocks (allowed to be replaced).

You should not get the stabilizer bars - you already have them coming on your RedLine.

[TOY4TWO]

It depends on your region. When I race SCCA ProSolo here in San Diego they have a special "Street Prepared" class you could run in that would allow the mods.

I don't want everyone to get turned off to SCCA racing because they modded their cars, best to see what your region offers.

[KappaMan]

Originally Posted by TOY4TWO

It depends on your region. When I race SCCA ProSolo here in San Diego they have a special "Street Prepared" class you could run in that would allow the mods.

I don't want everyone to get turned off to SCCA racing because they modded their cars, best to see what your region offers.

Street Prepared (available usually anywhere regional SCCA Solo clubs run) is, or at least where I am, is VERY competitive. It's a big step up, and requires more than slapping some stiffer springs on a car.

I know. I tried it, and struggled for a year when I went from GS to ESP because I changed some springs. I wasn't ready for it...

...but that's if you are really competitive. It was still a blast, and so long as you don't have your sights set on being a national Solo champion, you'll have a good time no matter what class you're in.

[snaponbob]

SCCA Solo 2 rules are available on the SCCA web site and can be downloaded for free as a PDF file. There are many classes to run in. Stock, Street Prepared, Prepared, Modified, Fomula SAE. and multiple street tuner classes. Pro Solo rules are the same, but the events are run a little differently than a regular Solo2. SCCA rules are SCCA rules everywhere.

The street tuner classes are partially an answer to the fast and furious crowd, partially to the folks that wanted to "enhance" there cars and have a place to "class" their cars for solo, and certainly have a class structure to have hopped up cars that are "street" cars (NO R rated tires) and not trailer queens.

Street Prepared can be a ball buster!! I currently race a Triumph TR8 in B/SP and have NO shot against well sorted BMWs, S2000's, and correctly prepared Corvettes. Major motivation for the Redline purchase as I will be running A/Stock (probable class assingment by SCCA). If a car is fully set up to SP rules it simply NOT streetable and will arrive and leave on a trailer.

Stock class rules are quite restrictive. ANY DOT rated tires, cat back systems, shock/strut replacements, and air filter element (only) are allowed. The end. You can't even change the shifter, steering wheel, seat or just about anything else. Frankly I have never agreed with the cat back and R-Rated tires being allowed in stock classes, but my name is not spelled SCCA!! One can even run stock class and sub classify your car (street tire) to allow for NOT having r-rated tires.

Look at the SCCA site and you'll find the schedule for national events. Google "autocross clubs" or something like "(your town) autocross" and you'll find local clubs. Find one, show up on that Sunday, and take a look. You might want to try it. Except for tires, autocross is really not hard on a car at all. Fun stuff.

[Mallard]

Originally Posted by snaponbob

The street tuner classes are partially an answer to the fast and furious crowd, partially to the folks that wanted to "enhance" there cars and have a place to "class" their cars for solo, and certainly have a class structure to have hopped up cars that are "street" cars (NO R rated tires) and not trailer queens.

Do you mean Street Touring classes? (STS, STX) While those classes do allow body mods like wings and aero kits, they are far from a slow ricer class with 'bling' all over their cars. STX is a pretty fast class for using street tires and it's extrelemy competitive. (I used to race STX)

The main point is, unless you plan on running nationally or for points in your region do what you want to your car and have fun with it. Taking the car to an autocross is fun no matter what class you end up in.

[snaponbob]

Originally Posted by Mallard

Do you mean Street Touring classes? (STS, STX) While those classes do allow body mods like wings and aero kits, they are far from a slow ricer class with 'bling' all over their cars. STX is a pretty fast class for using street tires and it's extrelemy competitive. (I used to race STX)

The main point is, unless you plan on running nationally or for points in your region do what you want to your car and have fun with it. Taking the car to an autocross is fun no matter what class you end up in.

Well said, and accurate. I have not really looked at all the aspects of STS, STX, and SM because I have no plans of running there.

[RobL]

I'm coming late to this discussion, sorry. My login was long in coming.

Originally Posted by snaponbob

The street tuner classes are partially an answer to the fast and furious crowd, partially to the folks that wanted to "enhance" there cars and have a place to "class" their cars for solo, and certainly have a class structure to have hopped up cars that are "street" cars (NO R rated tires) and not trailer queens.

The "tuner" classes, aka ST* classes, are every bit of trailer queens as the street prepared classes at the higher levels of competition. They have spring rates and shocks that were not designed for the street. If you are saying this because of the tires, well the stated treadwear on a tire is put there by the manufacturer and means very little. One of the reasons the the ST* classes are popular is that any novice coming off the street likely has a CAI and/or springs and it's easier to run in ST* than an *SP class o 140+ treadwear tires.

Originally Posted by snaponbob

Stock class rules are quite restrictive. ANY DOT rated tires, cat back systems, shock/strut replacements, and air filter element (only) are allowed. The end. You can't even change the shifter, steering wheel, seat or just about anything else. Frankly I have never agreed with the cat back and R-Rated tires being allowed in stock classes, but my name is not spelled SCCA!! One can even run stock class and sub classify your car (street tire) to allow for NOT having r-rated tires.

Those are not the only changes you are allowed in stock. I would go on to list them all but some help your times and others don't. The big ones that you missed are: wheels (with some restrictions), brake pads, front sway bar, and any fluids (there are diff fluids that make open diffs act like LSDs). I'm picking up my Solstice specifically to autocross. After the purchase of the car, there are multiple thousands of dollars of parts that I need to buy.

Originally Posted by snaponbob

Look at the SCCA site and you'll find the schedule for national events. Google "autocross clubs" or something like "(your town) autocross" and you'll find local clubs. Find one, show up on that Sunday, and take a look. You might want to try it. Except for tires, autocross is really not hard on a car at all. Fun stuff.

Autocrossing is fun. However it will expose the weaknesses in cars. Almost every car that is autocrossed heavily blows a shock. My MR2 would break swaybar mounts. Neons would wear out motor mounts and wheel bearings. Celicas and Saturns tend to lose engines to oil starvation. Miatas alignment bolts slip. I'm not saying that the Sky/Solstice has any of these problems but even cone hits can sometimes damage fog lights and body panels.

[snaponbob]

Rob, you are correct on many counts. But the St calss cars are very often NOT trailer queens. ST allows a lot of mods that are NOT allowed in Street Prepared. Granted, an ST car can come off the street and compete, but a properly setup SP car will have erasers for tires and would not be streetable. A REAL SP car is nearly a a road race car minus a race engine and steroids!! Next, what fluid will make an open diff act like an LSD? As to Stock class mods, sure there are many "changes" that can be made (fluids, pads, etc.), but "mods" are very restricted. Basically the money needs to be spent on tires, pads, shocks, and MAYBE front sway bar. The rest is minimal if the car was ordered properly.

Oh, yes, autocrossing is fun. But second place IS first looser!!!

[RobL]

Originally Posted by snaponbob

Rob, you are correct on many counts. But the St calss cars are very often NOT trailer queens. ST allows a lot of mods that are NOT allowed in Street Prepared. Granted, an ST car can come off the street and compete, but a properly setup SP car will have erasers for tires and would not be streetable. A REAL SP car is nearly a a road race car minus a race engine and steroids!!

I have a different opinion of ST* because our region has 20+ STS cars per event including past National Champions and ProSolo National Champions cars and drivers. At least 4 STS cars are trailered to our events. The top SP cars in our region (we have the FSP National Champion) all have had their engines worked on and prepped to the limit of the rules - basically race prepped. And hell - our STOCK cars have erasers for tires since stock and SP share the same tire rules.

Originally Posted by snaponbob

Next, what fluid will make an open diff act like an LSD? As to Stock class mods, sure there are many "changes" that can be made (fluids, pads, etc.), but "mods" are very restricted. Basically the money needs to be spent on tires, pads, shocks, and MAYBE front sway bar. The rest is minimal if the car was ordered properly.

At what point is a "change" a "mod"? I'm not going to argue semantics.

As for the fluid - that's an old racers trick. Basically the thicker the diff fluid the harder it is for the spider gears to work independantly. But the ultimate I've heard about is using sawdust in the diff fluid. Yes, I'm serious. Yes, it works. I wouln't use it for a 100 mile trip but if you are looking for that little extra grip for one or two autocross days and know how to change and clean a diff yourself - it's not like the wood is going to wear out the hardened steel...

Originally Posted by snaponbob

second place IS first looser!!!

I wouldn't know.

[snaponbob]

Robl, we are basically in agreement. I do know that stock class cars can run erasers, and I will have Hoosier 285/35x18 A6's. Personally, I think that R rated tires should be banned in Stock, but the SCCA would get such a pounding from Hoosier and Kuhmo that they would regret the change. So, it is as it is. I would rather run Kuhmos since they last so much longer, but I am resigned to the A6's. And If I set the suspension to what the Pontiac employees are running on their Sols I would have to trailer my Sky. Toe out front, toe in rear, 3 deg neg front, 1-2 deg neg rear. What fun THAT would be at highway speed!!

[RobL]

Originally Posted by snaponbob

Robl, we are basically in agreement. I do know that stock class cars can run erasers, and I will have Hoosier 285/35x18 A6's. Personally, I think that R rated tires should be banned in Stock, but the SCCA would get such a pounding from Hoosier and Kuhmo that they would regret the change. So, it is as it is. I would rather run Kuhmos since they last so much longer, but I am resigned to the A6's. And If I set the suspension to what the Pontiac employees are running on their Sols I would have to trailer my Sky. Toe out front, toe in rear, 3 deg neg front, 1-2 deg neg rear. What fun THAT would be at highway speed!!

Let me trudge up and interesting article on "R" and Street compounds in SCCA Solo competition: http://www.wincom.net/trog/street_tire_faq/

As for your alignment specs... That's what I do run on the street and autocross. When I go to the track where I know I'll be at triple digit speeds, I only take a little front toe out. That's been on two MR2s (a second and a third gen) and a few Miatas (all three generations now). Each liked a different thing in terms of exact toe and camber but they weren't all that far off.