7 quarts or is it 5? - Page 2

Bogie · 10-24-2007, 03:22 PM

You might want to consider stating to the higher ups at GM that they audit this dealer's maintenance records and notify any other affected customers of this problem. Make the request in writing. Then file a complaint with the BBB, with a resolution involving an audit and contact of affected owners. The BBB will appreciate this type of complaint because 1) You don't gain anything, and 2) It involves taking care of many customers (not just you).

Skyflare · 10-24-2007, 04:44 PM

just a quick post now (I am at work - don,t tell anyone). Let's just say, for now, SKYFORUM 1 incompetent service dealer 0!!! Will fill you in later.

Bogie - I hear you, working on it.

More drama to follow!

**Rustyknight** · 10-24-2007, 05:28 PM

Bear in mind also that with over filling the crankcase that if it reaches the level of the crankshaft, every revolution of the motor when the rod bearings transition into the oil from air it would just be like hitting concrete. Had a girlfriend once refused to check the oil just kept adding oil based on her womens intuition, it turned out her intuition was wrong and wound up with bearing damage and had to redo the bottom end.....

Tom13yearsaturntech · 10-24-2007, 05:37 PM

5 Quarts of synthetic is all it takes. Your not driving a Ion.

Skyflare · 10-24-2007, 10:22 PM

(Service Manager) - "Hello Mr. (Skyflare) this is (so n so), sorry we took so long to get back to you". "Well, our technical support says it looks like there are no bulletins supporting 7 quarts of oil for your car". (Skyflare) - So the owner's manual is correct, it takes 5 quarts of synthetic mobile 1 or equivalent, only? ...pause... (service manager) - "yes". (service manager) - "So we can redo your oil change to 5 quarts, at your convenience". (Skyflare) - Well, I will have to get back to you on that, you where suppose to call me yesterday. (silence)... (Skyflare) - I will call you back on how I want to proceed from here. So just to cofirm this is service manager (so n so) and your saying that my 07 Sky RL should only take 5 quarts not 7 that you put in it and said that is what it takes? (service manager

) - "yes". Thanks for the call, I will get back to you.

Skip... thanks for the virgin suggestion.

I think I might pass on that one though. The very nice lady I have, I think I will keep, provided she still wants me.

I have been unbelievable since this started. My apologies to her.

Sorry, it is not quite over though.

I do have a plan, but want to make sure the ducks are lined up, so to speak. I will post as the steps unfold... to be continued.

RedlineBlue · 10-25-2007, 12:07 AM

I was at a dealer once waiting while I had my oil changed. I was sitting in the waiting room next to this woman that had her car towed in. I asked her what happened and she told me she changed the oil herself and after the oil change her car would not start. She was worried she did something wrong since this was the first time she ever changed her oil. She said her engine doesn't even turn over. I asked her if she ran it without oil and she said "no". So I told her she probably got unlucky with a bad starter or a bad battery. Then the service manager came out to speak with her. This is how the conversation went...

[Service Manager] Ms. SoAndSo this was the first time changing your oil? [Woman] Yes it was. I have never changed the oil in any car in my life [Service Manager] How much oil did you put in it? [Woman] I really have no idea, I would need to go home and count the empty containers. [Service Manager] Do you have any idea? [Woman] No not really, I had to keep going to the store to get more oil since I didn't have enough. [Me] How did you know when you put enough oil in it? [Woman] When I saw it in the hole. [Service Manager] You mean the hole you put the oil in right? [Woman] Yes. [Service Manager] Well Ms. SoAndSo the good news is you didn't damage your car. The bad news is you spent way too much on your oil change. You only need 4 quarts. I'll show you where you check your oil level. Filling it up so you can see oil in the valve cover is a bit too much.

Just in case you didn't follow along, she filled the entire crankcase with oil, filling up even the valve covers. There was so much resistance with the oil the starter couldn't crank the engine over.

RedlineBlue

**Skip** · 10-25-2007, 12:20 AM

I wonder iffen you could put the excess oil back in the containers to use later on oil changes....Skip....

**Skip** · 10-25-2007, 12:30 AM

One day about three months ago I went into my shed to crank up my riding lawn mower. It would not crank. I pulled the spark plug out and hit the switch and it shot gas about three feet. I found out that this kind of mower, a Murrey, 12horse, has a carberator that sometimes has a sticking float switch. It had stuck open and the crankcase was filled to the top with gasoline. If I had got a spark I would not be typing this to the forum now I would have been blown up. I drained two gallons of oil and gas out of the crankcase. Refilled with the proper oil and put a fuel shutoff valve in the gas line. Needless to say it has not happened again....Skip...

RedlineBlue · 10-25-2007, 12:30 AM

Quote:

I wonder iffen you could put the excess oil back in the containers to use later on oil changes

I am sure you could put how do you tip the car to pour it out?

**Skip** · 10-25-2007, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedlineBlue

I am sure you could put how do you tip the car to pour it out?

of course you jack up one side till it almost tips over and then put blankets down and give it a little push...Skip....i be smart.

CaliforniaDreamin · 10-25-2007, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyflare

Thanks for help! It was good to see you too. BTW, I think the oil was warm when you checked it. Skyfury has been sitting in the garage since then.

Yes hot oil expands (so does aluminum). From a quick check,the volumetric cooefficient of thermal expansion of motor oil is 0.0007/degC which is about 10X that of Al. That morning your engine was warm but it did not feel particularly hot but let's say it was. Let's say it was at 100C or 75C above room temperature. That would equate to 5 quarts now being 5.26 quarts. Like I said it was not that hot I just wanted to know how significant and error you'd get if the oil was hot. Not a lot.

Your oil level was overfilled by a heck of a lot more than 1/4 of a quart. I'd say by what...Hummm... maybe 2 quarts!

SilverRedLineSky · 11-01-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Man1Sky

I did read the manual...but my question is, despite the manual, is there truth in what the service mgr said. He swore up and down that everyone is going to tell me to use synthetic but it is absolutely not necessary with this car.

Now, I certainly woul dput syn in my beloved vehicle, but just wondering why the service manager of one of the largest (in the US?) Saturn dealerships (Troy, MI) would say that to me.

As for the RL I would only use the recommended 5 qts Mobile 1 just to ensure Saturn honor the warranty. But from this thread I don't think any service department would have the capability to test the oil for the GM statndard GM4718M.

Here's a little twist with GM using Mobile 1. I have a Vette (LS1), use only Mobile 1, or void warranty. I also have a Trans Am with exact same engine (LS1), no mention of Mobile 1, use dino. Is it really a requirement or is it a contract commitment between companys? The engines come from the same place. I do use Mobile 1 in both, but always wondered why the distinct difference.

Scissors · 11-01-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverRedLineSky

As for the RL I would only use the recommended 5 qts Mobile 1 just to ensure Saturn honor the warranty. But from this thread I don't think any service department would have the capability to test the oil for the GM statndard GM4718M.

Here's a little twist with GM using Mobile 1. I have a Vette (LS1), use only Mobile 1, or void warranty. I also have a Trans Am with exact same engine (LS1), no mention of Mobile 1, use dino. Is it really a requirement or is it a contract commitment between companys? The engines come from the same place. I do use Mobile 1 in both, but always wondered why the distinct difference.

There could be several reasons. One is that Corvette buyers have more money and will not consider the cost of oil when making a purchasing decision. Another is that labor costs for Corvette technicians may be higher, so they want to minimize the chances of engine problems on that model. It could also be that the Corvette's more aggressive cam profiles and exhaust tuning result in more wear. It could also be for image, as the Corvette's competition cares about refinement.

Skyflare · 11-01-2007, 02:33 PM

Skyfury is finally back to 5 new quarts of Mobile 1 ( I had to take her back to them... per Saturn Corp) and they gave me my money back for the 2 additional quarts of oil (the overfill). Saturn Corp. has documented the whole event and I have a case file #. The local saturn team corp. case manager has said, as well as documented, I am covered if any future related problems develop (seals, rings or other related overfill problems) and my warranty remains intact. They also gave me a coupon as someone else mentioned.

Even up to the final call, the dealership remained steadfast that 7 quarts were needed. The service manager after my car was re-done mentioned that they had called a number of dealerships in the SF bay area and found out that many of them are overfilling with 7 quarts on the Red Line Sky models, but he says they (that dealership) had no related overfill issues (also remember - they have two Saturn dealerships). This brings me to the last question, which after that statement, what about all those other Sky RLs with 7 quarts? Saturn tells me that they are looking into it and the dealerships says they will deal with it. But now I wonder, just how big is this problem? As it turns out, it may be big. I stopped in at another Saturn dealeship near where I work, just to see, I asked the parts guy how many quarts of oil for the Sky Red Line and what type. A mechanic standing on the other side of the counter said, are you thinking about changing your own oil? Yes, I said, something like that. Well, he said that car takes 6 or 7 quarts of oil. Really, I said. How do you know that? We change the oil on them all the time...I, blurted out no you shouldn't be doing that, the manual says its' 5 quarts. You should check your documents on the corect amount. I left immediately. Wow, what a can of worms, ignorance is bliss. I guess the only thing I can do, without taking a full page add in all the papers, is check back with Saturn from time to time. I will repost on this if anything further develops. IT'S 5 QUARTS OF OIL!!!...and it is 5-30 synthetic, per your manual!

**RedHeaded RedLine** · 11-01-2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyflare

Skyfury is finally back to 5 new quarts of Mobile 1 IT'S 5 QUARTS OF OIL!!!...and it is 5-30 synthetic, per your manual!

A six pack of Mobil1 5w-30 is ~$26 at Sam's. My place uses Cam2 SynDino blend. I will be providing them the case of Mobil1 with one taken out. Every place that I have dealt with will knock off some $$$, if they don't supply the oil. It helps if your service bay has a window to watch them. -J

harrower · 11-02-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverRedLineSky

As for the RL I would only use the recommended 5 qts Mobile 1 just to ensure Saturn honor the warranty. But from this thread I don't think any service department would have the capability to test the oil for the GM statndard GM4718M.

Here's a little twist with GM using Mobile 1. I have a Vette (LS1), use only Mobile 1, or void warranty. I also have a Trans Am with exact same engine (LS1), no mention of Mobile 1, use dino. Is it really a requirement or is it a contract commitment between companys? The engines come from the same place. I do use Mobile 1 in both, but always wondered why the distinct difference.

Do you have an oil cooler on the Trans Am. Corvettes went to Moblile 1 in 1992 when they dropped the oil cooler.

Willie27 · 11-19-2007, 03:01 PM

I have an 08 Sky RL, its confirmed, its 5 quarts. I changed my oil this weekend and it only needed 5 quarts. Ignore the 7 qt rumor!

I bought 8 qts of Mobil 1 with a filter (Fram) for $65 at autozone. Do your oil changes yourself, its really not that difficult and its half the price of dealer.

**cfjara** · 11-19-2007, 03:31 PM

This is why i do my own minor maintanence...not to scare anyone but i took my wife's 06 Nissan Altima SE-R to the dealer to get an auto tranny flush 30k miles ( i don't have the mechanical flush machine) for $169. When i got home i checked the level and they had overfilled it by 1.5 quarts..( for auto tranny fluid) thats a lot considering auto trannies use about 4 quarts. The tranny ran ok when full however this is horrible long term since the tranny will run at a higher pressure which causes leaks in the seals long term. It may have even caused internal seal damage only noticable after long drives.....

I keep my cars long term 5+ years...this would have certainly brought about premature tranny failure if i hadn't checked the fluid level.....

dont want to scare anyone...just trying to pass the message to always try to double check the work on your cars..even when you take them to the dealer...
you can have a new hire working on your car or an experieced tech....you just never know what you'll get when you take you car in for service...
and sometimes the damage is being done without your knowledge and befoer you know it...you wonder why your tranny on new car had to be replaced before reaching 100k miles.

Gerry · 11-19-2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfjara

...the tranny will run at a higher pressure which causes leaks in the seals long term. ...

What actually happens with an overfilled automatic is that the trans fluid foams. And foamy fluid is subject to compression, which means that the actual hydraulic pressure goes down, not up. This leads to burning out of the clutch packs and bands. It is better to underfill an automatic since when it's sucking air, the trans won't hold and forces you to a solution before significant damage is done. But when it sucking foamy fluid, it slips and you won't know it until the damage is done. Yes, it can be overfilled to the point that it starts to leak, but most of this goes out the vent, not the seals.

coopcj7 · 11-19-2007, 04:58 PM

Glad to see that the oil debate have been resolved.

I still cant believe the dealer said that they called the other dealerships and they still put 7 quarts in

When are they going to learn

I feel sorry for the person that has engine problems related to this overfill. But I await the dealership that has to fess up to the problems being ignorance related on their part. Of course warranty wont cover that but the dealer will have to.

10-24-2007, 03:22 PM	#31 (permalink)
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Northern, VA Posts: 2,476 My Photos: (0)	You might want to consider stating to the higher ups at GM that they audit this dealer's maintenance records and notify any other affected customers of this problem. Make the request in writing. Then file a complaint with the BBB, with a resolution involving an audit and contact of affected owners. The BBB will appreciate this type of complaint because 1) You don't gain anything, and 2) It involves taking care of many customers (not just you). __________________ 2008 Redline Black Onyx Black/Red Leather Monsoon 6 Disc Spoiler French Transmission Born July 2007 Snagged 8/31/07 Belle? That's my car Alizée? That's my avatar Me? Forty something male skydriver

10-24-2007, 04:44 PM	#32 (permalink)
Skyflare Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Left coast, CA Posts: 537 My Photos: (5)	just a quick post now (I am at work - don,t tell anyone). Let's just say, for now, SKYFORUM 1 incompetent service dealer 0!!! Will fill you in later. Bogie - I hear you, working on it. More drama to follow! __________________ Always remember above the best is the sky and the sky is always full of stars! SKYFURY

10-24-2007, 05:28 PM	#33 (permalink)
Rustyknight Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 886 My Photos: (9)	Bear in mind also that with over filling the crankcase that if it reaches the level of the crankshaft, every revolution of the motor when the rod bearings transition into the oil from air it would just be like hitting concrete. Had a girlfriend once refused to check the oil just kept adding oil based on her womens intuition, it turned out her intuition was wrong and wound up with bearing damage and had to redo the bottom end..... __________________ Rusty Bluestone Sky Black Leather and Roof Serial #11805 - Traded 8-2-2007 Midnight Blue RL Black Leather and Roof Serial #05941 - Picked Up 8-20-2007 What is the source of your user name: http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8236

10-24-2007, 10:22 PM	#35 (permalink)
Skyflare Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Left coast, CA Posts: 537 My Photos: (5)	My "We are Wrong Phone Call" (Service Manager) - "Hello Mr. (Skyflare) this is (so n so), sorry we took so long to get back to you". "Well, our technical support says it looks like there are no bulletins supporting 7 quarts of oil for your car". (Skyflare) - So the owner's manual is correct, it takes 5 quarts of synthetic mobile 1 or equivalent, only? ...pause... (service manager) - "yes". (service manager) - "So we can redo your oil change to 5 quarts, at your convenience". (Skyflare) - Well, I will have to get back to you on that, you where suppose to call me yesterday. (silence)... (Skyflare) - I will call you back on how I want to proceed from here. So just to cofirm this is service manager (so n so) and your saying that my 07 Sky RL should only take 5 quarts not 7 that you put in it and said that is what it takes? (service manager ) - "yes". Thanks for the call, I will get back to you. Skip... thanks for the virgin suggestion. I think I might pass on that one though. The very nice lady I have, I think I will keep, provided she still wants me. I have been unbelievable since this started. My apologies to her. Sorry, it is not quite over though. I do have a plan, but want to make sure the ducks are lined up, so to speak. I will post as the steps unfold... to be continued. __________________ Always remember above the best is the sky and the sky is always full of stars! SKYFURY

10-25-2007, 12:07 AM	#36 (permalink)
RedlineBlue Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Jersey Posts: 120 My Photos: (0)	How do you know when it's full? I was at a dealer once waiting while I had my oil changed. I was sitting in the waiting room next to this woman that had her car towed in. I asked her what happened and she told me she changed the oil herself and after the oil change her car would not start. She was worried she did something wrong since this was the first time she ever changed her oil. She said her engine doesn't even turn over. I asked her if she ran it without oil and she said "no". So I told her she probably got unlucky with a bad starter or a bad battery. Then the service manager came out to speak with her. This is how the conversation went... [Service Manager] Ms. SoAndSo this was the first time changing your oil? [Woman] Yes it was. I have never changed the oil in any car in my life [Service Manager] How much oil did you put in it? [Woman] I really have no idea, I would need to go home and count the empty containers. [Service Manager] Do you have any idea? [Woman] No not really, I had to keep going to the store to get more oil since I didn't have enough. [Me] How did you know when you put enough oil in it? [Woman] When I saw it in the hole. [Service Manager] You mean the hole you put the oil in right? [Woman] Yes. [Service Manager] Well Ms. SoAndSo the good news is you didn't damage your car. The bad news is you spent way too much on your oil change. You only need 4 quarts. I'll show you where you check your oil level. Filling it up so you can see oil in the valve cover is a bit too much. Just in case you didn't follow along, she filled the entire crankcase with oil, filling up even the valve covers. There was so much resistance with the oil the starter couldn't crank the engine over. RedlineBlue

Remove Advertisements Sponsored Links
Saturn Sky Forum Advertisement

10-24-2007, 05:37 PM	#34 (permalink)
Tom13yearsaturntech Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 23 My Photos: (0)	5 Quarts of synthetic is all it takes. Your not driving a Ion.

10-25-2007, 12:20 AM	#37 (permalink)
Skip First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: deep in the land of cotton where good times there are not forgotten Posts: 4,736 My Photos: (0)	I wonder iffen you could put the excess oil back in the containers to use later on oil changes....Skip.... __________________ Resident Redneck of the forum and Birthday Greeter Keep on the sunny side of life It tant Christmas without Christ.

10-25-2007, 12:30 AM	#38 (permalink)
Skip First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: deep in the land of cotton where good times there are not forgotten Posts: 4,736 My Photos: (0)	RedlineBlue One day about three months ago I went into my shed to crank up my riding lawn mower. It would not crank. I pulled the spark plug out and hit the switch and it shot gas about three feet. I found out that this kind of mower, a Murrey, 12horse, has a carberator that sometimes has a sticking float switch. It had stuck open and the crankcase was filled to the top with gasoline. If I had got a spark I would not be typing this to the forum now I would have been blown up. I drained two gallons of oil and gas out of the crankcase. Refilled with the proper oil and put a fuel shutoff valve in the gas line. Needless to say it has not happened again....Skip... __________________ Resident Redneck of the forum and Birthday Greeter Keep on the sunny side of life It tant Christmas without Christ.

11-01-2007, 02:33 PM	#44 (permalink)
Skyflare Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Left coast, CA Posts: 537 My Photos: (5)	The resolution... Skyfury is finally back to 5 new quarts of Mobile 1 ( I had to take her back to them... per Saturn Corp) and they gave me my money back for the 2 additional quarts of oil (the overfill). Saturn Corp. has documented the whole event and I have a case file #. The local saturn team corp. case manager has said, as well as documented, I am covered if any future related problems develop (seals, rings or other related overfill problems) and my warranty remains intact. They also gave me a coupon as someone else mentioned. Even up to the final call, the dealership remained steadfast that 7 quarts were needed. The service manager after my car was re-done mentioned that they had called a number of dealerships in the SF bay area and found out that many of them are overfilling with 7 quarts on the Red Line Sky models, but he says they (that dealership) had no related overfill issues (also remember - they have two Saturn dealerships). This brings me to the last question, which after that statement, what about all those other Sky RLs with 7 quarts? Saturn tells me that they are looking into it and the dealerships says they will deal with it. But now I wonder, just how big is this problem? As it turns out, it may be big. I stopped in at another Saturn dealeship near where I work, just to see, I asked the parts guy how many quarts of oil for the Sky Red Line and what type. A mechanic standing on the other side of the counter said, are you thinking about changing your own oil? Yes, I said, something like that. Well, he said that car takes 6 or 7 quarts of oil. Really, I said. How do you know that? We change the oil on them all the time...I, blurted out no you shouldn't be doing that, the manual says its' 5 quarts. You should check your documents on the corect amount. I left immediately. Wow, what a can of worms, ignorance is bliss. I guess the only thing I can do, without taking a full page add in all the papers, is check back with Saturn from time to time. I will repost on this if anything further develops. IT'S 5 QUARTS OF OIL!!!...and it is 5-30 synthetic, per your manual! __________________ Always remember above the best is the sky and the sky is always full of stars! SKYFURY

11-19-2007, 03:01 PM	#47 (permalink)
Willie27 Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 15 My Photos: (0)	Confirmed! I have an 08 Sky RL, its confirmed, its 5 quarts. I changed my oil this weekend and it only needed 5 quarts. Ignore the 7 qt rumor! I bought 8 qts of Mobil 1 with a filter (Fram) for $65 at autozone. Do your oil changes yourself, its really not that difficult and its half the price of dealer.

11-19-2007, 03:31 PM	#48 (permalink)
cfjara Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 259 My Photos: (0)	This is why i do my own minor maintanence...not to scare anyone but i took my wife's 06 Nissan Altima SE-R to the dealer to get an auto tranny flush 30k miles ( i don't have the mechanical flush machine) for $169. When i got home i checked the level and they had overfilled it by 1.5 quarts..( for auto tranny fluid) thats a lot considering auto trannies use about 4 quarts. The tranny ran ok when full however this is horrible long term since the tranny will run at a higher pressure which causes leaks in the seals long term. It may have even caused internal seal damage only noticable after long drives..... I keep my cars long term 5+ years...this would have certainly brought about premature tranny failure if i hadn't checked the fluid level..... dont want to scare anyone...just trying to pass the message to always try to double check the work on your cars..even when you take them to the dealer... you can have a new hire working on your car or an experieced tech....you just never know what you'll get when you take you car in for service... and sometimes the damage is being done without your knowledge and befoer you know it...you wonder why your tranny on new car had to be replaced before reaching 100k miles.