Air bag deployment

[bronzestarsky]

Did a search on this topic, but didn't find what I was looking for. Can anyone tell me at what collision speed the air bags will deploy?

I'm trying to gather some ammunition to back up my side of a front-end collision I was involved in this morning. The other driver, who pulled away from a curb without signaling right in front of me, then abruptly stopped, told the "investigating" police officer that I was speeding (posted speed limit is 25, but since there's a school at the end of the block, I wasn't going any faster than 20). Since my air bags didn't deploy, that could be a way to disprove his statement that I was speeding. You know, "according to Saturn, the air bags in a Sky will deploy if involved in a front-end collision at a speed of X mph or greater..." Since mine didn't deploy, ergo I wasn't speeding. I'm hoping X is 25 mph, or pretty close! I'm also going to try and search for the VA motor vehicle codes that say something about pulling out into traffic, and how he violated my right of way, whether he signaled or not. This happened on a one way street, with cars parked on both sides, clear lane down the middle for at least half a block, no cars traveling in front of me, sun shining, roads dry, at about 7:40 this morning.

The reason why I'm trying to gather some ammo is the "investigating" police officer told me since he didn't witness the accident, and there were no other witnesses other than the two drivers involved, the insurance companies will have to figure it all out. He also said he's not going to issue citations to either driver. Yeah, I hit his trailer hitch going about 10-15 mph, but if he hadn't pulled out in front of me this never would've happened in the first place. I want to have some ammo to fire at my insurance company as well, in case during their "investigation" they decide I'm at fault in one way or another.

It's not a pretty sight, the hood buckled up, bumper cover and grill tore up, small crack on the lower left windshield, etc. But luckily no fluid leaks, and I think the doors are fine, just some minor paint touchups and alignment. The height of his trailer hitch was just above the chrome grill piece, so the leading edge of the hood, just to the left of the Saturn logo, bore the brunt of the impact. Jacked up the left headlight assembly but didn't break it, and I'm sure there are plenty of broken plastic pieces under that hood. I'm guessing somewhere in the $3000-$4000 range to replace/fix everything, so it's in my best interest to get this info, and be ready to fight. I certainly don't want my insurance premiums to go up for something that wasn't my fault!

[bronzestarsky]

[BigSkyCountry]

Something doesn't seem to jive here. You're going no more than twenty, he pulls completely away from the curb from a dead stop in a parallel-parked situation and you hit him squarely in the rear?

[SkyBaby]

ouchy... That hurts!!! I can totally understand how someone could pull out from the side of a one way street and ... for lack of a better term... dart out in front and then get startled to see he/she pulled in front of someone and they try to do the right thing and stop.. but... HOW MORONIC..... anyway... I have seen this happen in Rockford.. more than once.... people drive like idiots in all parts of the country... I am sorry it happened to you.... I dont know about at what speed the airbags deploy.. .but, I think , not sure it could be in the manual????? just a shot in the dark here... Best of Luck... SkyBaby

[xmicro_Redline]

You air bag probably did not deploy because your bumper went under the contact point. The air bag sensors are in the bumper. Had your SKY made impact lower, you MAY have set them off. Here is some generic info:

Triggering conditions
Airbags are designed to deploy in frontal and near-frontal collisions that are more violent than a 23 km/h (14 mph) barrier collision, or similarly, striking a parked car of similar size across the full front of each vehicle at about twice the speed. (The parked car absorbs some of the energy of the crash.)
Unlike crash tests into barriers, real-world crashes typically occur at angles, and the crash forces usually are not evenly distributed across the front of the vehicle. Consequently, the relative speed between a striking and struck vehicle required to deploy the airbag in a real-world crash can be much higher than an equivalent barrier crash. Because airbag sensors measure deceleration, vehicle speed and damage are not good indicators of whether an airbag should have deployed. Airbags can deploy due to the vehicle's undercarriage striking a low object protruding above the roadway due to the resulting deceleration.
The airbag sensor is a MEMS accelerometer, which is a small integrated circuit with integrated micro mechanical elements. The microscopic mechanical element moves in response to rapid deceleration, and this motion causes a change in capacitance, which is detected by the electronics on the chip that then sends a signal to fire the airbag. The most common MEMS accelerometer in use is the ADXL-50 by Analog Devices, but there are other MEMS manufacturers as well.
Initial attempts using mercury switches did not work well. Before MEMS, the primary system used to deploy airbags was called a "rolamite". A rolamite is a mechanical device, consisting of a roller suspended within a tensioned band. As a result of the particular geometry and material properties used, the roller is free to translate with little friction or hysteresis. This device was developed at Sandia National Laboratories. The rolamite, and similar macro-mechanical devices were used in airbags until the mid-1990s when they were universally replaced with MEMS.
Nearly all airbags are designed to automatically deploy in the event of a vehicle fire when temperatures reach 150-200 °C (300-400 °F).[citation needed] This safety feature, often termed auto-ignition, helps to ensure that such temperatures do not cause an explosion of the entire airbag module.
Today, airbag triggering algorithms are becoming much more complex. They try to reduce unnecessary deployments (for example, at low speed, no shocks should trigger the airbag, to help reduce damage to the car interior in conditions where the seat belt would be an adequate safety device), and to adapt the deployment speed to the crash conditions. The algorithms are considered valuable intellectual property. Experimental algorithms may take into account such factors as the weight of the occupant, the seat location, seatbelt use, and even attempt to determine if a baby seat is present.

How did he get fully out of the space before you hit him?? If I was an insurance agent, your story would not sound right. Not to say you were speeding, but maybe didn't see him pulling out, otherwise you would have struck him in the front fender with the front side of your car. 90% of the full frontal impacts are the fault of the driver who has the front end damage. Best you can hope for in my opinion is a No-Fault case without witness's.

Sorry for your mis-fortune, Good Luck, and find a Great Body Shop, that is the most important thing!

[bronzestarsky]

Thanks for the advice. I can't be unbiased here, but I've driven down that one-way street for over a year on my way to the base. I've never exceeded the speed limit because of the school, and I noticed something else about the front-end picture damage last night. The actual point of impact isn't in the center of the hood, it's more towards the driver's side headlight. I didn't hit anything other than the trailer hitch on the truck, so that should indicate that he wasn't exactly centered in front of me, but probably still pulling away from the curb.

I can come up with all kinds of "excuses" as to how it happened, like he didn't look in his RIGHT side mirror before pulling away, or if he did, he didn't see me; he didn't see me if he turned his head and looked towards the back, because his truck had tinted windows, and a matching cab-height shell with tinted windows; and from what I remember, when I was sitting in my car and looked at the back of his truck, my eye level was maybe the bottom part of his tail gate (it's a 4wd Toyota Tacoma).

Not sure if VA is a no-fault state, and I'll give my insurance company the chance to make things right. But if it looks like I'm going to get screwed and be faulted by my own insurance company, and my premiums will go up, then I'll think about taking the other driver to small claims court, if anything to try and get him to be legally at fault. Hopefully it won't come to that, but I want to be ready just in case...

[reedred]

You probably have a pretty tough fight on your hands and I'd guess the damage is closer to $6K. Sorry about the accident.

[Bogie]

The general rule is if a driver hits someone else in the rear, that driver will be faulted. If it's a side impact, it's generally the merging drivers fault. If it's a transition from side to rear....that's where things get sticky. The above rules don't indicate true fault, they are just the rules that are applied.

If you hit squarely on the rear, speed won't be an issue. Even if you were going the speed limit you will have an uphill battle.

If you hit the side of the trailer, the merging driver has the uphill battle to show an extenuating circumstance for why he would not be at fault.

If you hit the corner of the trailer, then you are in the transition stage.

Here's your cross examination:

Q: Did you see the plantiff in your mirrors before pulling out?
A: No.
Q: Yet, you claim the plantiff was speeding.
A: Yes.
Q: How did you determine the plantiff was speeding, if you never saw him.
A: Because I never saw him and I would have seen him if he wasn't' speeding.
Q: So, your claim to him speeding is based solely on your failure to see him.
A: Yes.
At this point you have gotten him to admit he never saw you. You do not need to make the case that you were not speeding. All you must show now is at what speed you would have had to be traveling in order for him not to see you. I suspect this will be substantially over the speed limit, depending on the geometry of the road and the fact you have daytime running lamps or you lights were on. Say it would have been 50mph. If you can show you were not going 50 mph, then you can show he should have seen you regardless of your speed. And since he did not see you, that means he simply failed to see you...period. He pulled out in front of you, not because he didn't see you because of speed, but because he simply did not see you.

If he answers yes to the question:

Q: Did you see the plantiff in your mirrors before pulling out?
A: Yes.
Q: And you saw that he was speeding?
A: Yes.
Q: Why did you pull out in front of a speeding car?


Hope it turns out well. Sorry to see your baby so hurt.

[swieck]

It is my understanding that in MOST states that when a vehicle is parked and making the transition of moving into the flow of traffic, it is the responsibly of the driver to do so in a safe manor. Pulling out in front of you and claiming he didnt see you is no excuse. I'ts on him.

[MidniteBlues]

What bothers me some what is the photo evidence on the Sky. It appears to me and (I'm not an accident investigator), but I DO have eyes, that he (truck) was pretty well onto the road before impact. It looks like a square on impact hit by the way the Sky's damage on the hood & front end. Now mind ya, I am biased and want to support bronzestarsky position, but I am having a problem with the physical evidence, ie, the picture of his Sky.

If the truck was pulling out on impact I would of wanted or preferred to see a hit on the side of the truck, not squarely on the guys rear or on the trailer hitch. In general in this country (USA) a rear end impact of this sort will generally be the fault of the driver in back, or the one with front end damage. Where as in Germany, it the fault of the driver in front (in general), over there you would have to prove the rear driver is at fault. I would like to see some hope for our guy, but I am also a realist, I call it like I see it. And unfortunately, unless I can have more facts, or a witness, this does not look good for our sky driver, sad to say. I am however surprised bronzestarsky, did not get a ticker for at a "minimum" "failure to use due care" or something like that. That cop bailed out big time on his ability to see.. And that at least IS good thing for our guy, and gives him ahhh, wiggle room if you will.

PS: Oh yea one final note here, it is a well known fact on this forum, that our Sky's, and Sols, or even any low to the ground roadsters AND motor cycles are NOT seen by these big trucks. I drive both and can tell ya, since I am very high off the ground in my H2 for example, AND being an ex-biker and currently drive a roadster also I for one am more "aware" and more diligent if you will looking for these small guys when that high up. Using your mirrors when in this situation is never good enough or a good idea, you MUST turn your head and use your eyes at a minimum, or have your passenger stick her/his head out and make sure the road is clear to proceed. Thats just common sense, which many high profile drivers should be aware of, perhaps this dude, did not do that. The issue here for our guy, prove it..

[SkyBaby]

Where is our resident lawyer when he is needed??? WVSooner... where are you??? SkyBaby

[WVSooner]

Since I have been invited to the conversation...and having just resolved an airbag failure to deploy case....

Bogie is right - as a general rule, when you hit someone in the rear, the driver of the striking vehicle is going to be assigned the blame. However, that is not to say that you can't fight it. I am working a case right now where my client hit someone in the rear after that person backed out into the highway in front of him.

As far as airbag deployment goes, the snippet above is not quite correct. The vehicle change in velocity (“delta-V”) is the controlling factor in airbag deployment. If you are running into a non-deformable wall, that speed change ranges from approximately 8-18 mph depending on the age of the system, the manufacturer, and the way the system is tuned to the particular vehicle. However, when striking a deformable object or a moving vehicle, you are looking at the relative change in velocity as a result of the impact. As a rough approximation, if Car A is traveling 20 mph and rear-ends a car going 5 mph, Car A will experience a delta-V of something less than 15 mph. It is less than 15 mph due to energy dissipated by crash structure, etc. There are other factors that can affect airbag deployment as well - where the impact occurs in relation to the airbag sensor(s), whether or not the bag is working properly, whether the seat is occupied (most systems turn the bag off is the seat is not occupied), and so on.

This is not intended to be legal advice, but merely observations from past experience. Contact an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction.

[Booster_RL]

You are going to have a hellacious time on this one in court. As was mentioned earlier rear impact is a real defacto "at fault" standard. I appreciate what you are saying though and this car's low profile (Center of gravity, not looks) makes this happen ALL the time. People drive without caution everywhere, they especially do if they cannot see you. I'd retain an attorney for no other reason than the guy is going to have severe neck & back injury no matter what the speed.

[Lil GTO]

we are going to have to start a campaign for every Kappa owner to get one of these: Car Camera with Car Power Adaptor, Dash Cam, Camera for your Car's Dash Board

just a theory - but I am thinking that yes the other car did pull out in front of you and you had every reasonable expectation that he would not come to a dead stop immediately after entering the lane in front of you so you did not slow down (from whatever speed you were traveling) - in the time during you thinking what a jackass that guy must be to realizing he was not moving but rather stopping - you burned up your minimum assured clear distance leaving your self no time or space to come to a stop without striking the other vehicle.

So it would seem to me that by the letter of the law you failed to maintain a minimum assured clear distance - however, this was a direct result of the actions of the other driver and while in retrospect you could have been more careful - you would actually be creating an even greater hazard if you came to a stop every time someone pulled into the lane in front of you.

I wonder if you mounted that cam between the headrests if it would capture more of your reactions and any of the gauges at all versus mounting it on the dash as some folks do.

[bronzestarsky]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, the "investigating" officer failed to write either one of us a citation, so the determination as to who's at fault could go either way. Yes, I understand that in MOST cases of a rear-end collision, the vehicle in the rear is usually at fault. But in this case, when someone pulled out in front of me with no warning, I think that's enough of an extenuating circumstance to fight it. Had I known there was a driver in that truck, I would've increased my situational awareness and driven more defensively. But he was parked on the left side of the street, sitting in a 4wd crew cab truck with a cab-high shell on the back with tinted windows, so I had no idea. And the only part of his truck that I hit was his trailer hitch, pretty much between the centerline of my hood and the driver's side headlight, which is an indication that he wasn't directly in front of me, and was still pulling away from the left side curb.

Anyway, haven't heard back yet from the insurance-approved body shop, and how they're going to get my car from my house to the shop. If I don't hear from them by tomorrow, I'm calling the next one on the list.

Question: would it be better for me to have an independent shop fix it, or a dealership that doesn't sell Saturns? These are the only two "insurance-approved" shops within 10 miles of my house. I know I can get quotes on my own, but the car's not driveable, so I'm resorting to using the shops on USAA's list. I pay my deductible, and they pay the shop directly for the rest. Hopefully, it won't come down to that, and USAA will go after the other guy's insurance, so we'll see. If it was me, I gave them the other guy's driver's license number, so I'd run it and see what kind of driving record he was. I also gave them the VIN on his truck, so I'd do the same thing on his truck, and see if it's been involved in any accidents. Just more possible ammo in case I have to fight USAA or take the guy to court...

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by bronzestarsky

....USAA.....

Hmmm....two SKYs insured with USAA involved in a he-said he-said within the same week, in the same state. I bet their rate database is churning now...not just for me and you, but for every member with a SKY.

[GordoSH-3]

bronzestarsky:

1. Use one of the USAA recommended shop(s). USAA is a great insurance company and they've never screwed me on the premiums or claims in over 30 years as a member/customer. A USAA recommended repair shop requires the shop to warranty the repair (for as long as you own the car I think) and even if the shop later goes out of business USAA will stand behind the repairs. Stop swimming upstream and just go with flow with this one.

2. I would recommend you ask around car lots, people you know that have had recent body repairs, etc. to find which of the USAA recommended shops has the best reputation. Don't worry about whether or not the shop is a Saturn dealer or not. Despite what a dealer may tell you ("Only a Saturn dealer knows you car, blah, blah, blah"), a good body shop should be able to repair the damage w/o problems. What you really want is a good technician who can fit body panels, blend/shape metal or fibreglass, and of course PAINT!! For example, I once took my Toyota Supra to an Oldsmobile dealership because they had the best body shop reputation in town at the time and were one of four USAA shops in the area. Never had to look back or complain about the work quality.

3. Unless you can find witnesses, your accident is a "he said, he said" accident and, as most here have advised, you're going to fight an uphill battle in court to win anything. You must provide proof that tends to show that the the other guy, more likely than not, caused the accident. A mere statement or testimony from you saying the other driver is at fault will normally be insufficient to prevail over his counter-statement or testimony in court saying "no, I wasn't at fault." This is a bitter pill to swallow but you'll probably have to file a repair claim under your collision coverage to have your car repaired.

4. Don't sweat the fact that the police officer didn't cite anyone. He wasn't there when the accident occurred, he can't testify as to what really happened because he didn't see anything, really has no basis upon which to issue a citation from his own knowledge and any citation (if issued) would only be his opinion of what happened based upon what the parties involved told him. I don't know VA law but these reasons alone are why many states no longer allow police officers to issue traffic citations at accident scenes unless they see the infraction or there is clear independent physical evidence to support a citation (DUI/DWI, clearly excessive speed, etc.).

5. Hiring an attorney to take on your case as WVSooner recommended is certainly an option but it will be expensive (I don't see a contingency fee type of case here - no injuries on your part and your damages are restricted to the car). And, regardless who takes the case to court, you'll still be fighting an uphill battle with very little evidence to support your side or version of the facts. Again this is a bitter pill to swallow but you may have to cut your losses on this one.

6. This is not legal advice (bar association disclaimer here) but you could always have the guy killed. Here in the deep south we have a saying that covers the justification for homicide if someone has significantly wronged you; the "He needed kill'n" defense. Certainly a scroundrel that has caused damage to a Sky needs kill'n!!

Sorry for the long post. You looked like you needed to vent but had genuine Q's. Good luck man.

Gordo

[KimberlySky]

Heck when Sinister was in her wreck.

She was at a dead stop at the light and the SUV that hit her from behind was going downhill and going atleast 65 and her air bags didn't deploy nor did Onstar call!