Anyone else having brake problems??

jodenessky · 12-28-2007, 11:41 AM

From the day I brought my new 2008 Sky home I've had problems with the brakes not working after the car sits for a couple of hours. The problem is always at start up. Took to dealer to have it fixed, they said it is "normal" at high altitudes. Pulled out from the Vegas dealer, which is at a low altitude, and the brakes still didnt work! What can I do??

shabby · 12-28-2007, 12:22 PM

What do you mean "not working", you're pumping the pedal and the car isnt stopping? How can a dealer say this is "normal"?

30notbad · 12-28-2007, 12:34 PM

joden, I own an 08 gxp and have had major brake issues, others on the gxp site have had problems too seems to be only the 08's. here is a link so you can read through and see if this is what is going on with yours. Our issue is only on a cold start or after the car has been sitting a couple of hours the brakes do not engage for the first 5 min after the car has been started.

After pretty much threatning our dealer they had our EBCM replaced but it still seems that we have the problem and it is not 100% fixed yet.

http://www.solsticegxpowners.com/for...ead.php?t=1718

Hope this helps!!

**Skip** · 12-28-2007, 12:39 PM

Please use the search key and read up about the brake problem on the 08's R/L. There are a couple of threads about it. I suggest that when you fire up your Sky you wait about two minutes to get full brakes ....Skip..Please read the threads for your own understanding...

SkyMan 08 · 12-28-2007, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jodenessky

From the day I brought my new 2008 Sky home I've had problems with the brakes not working after the car sits for a couple of hours. The problem is always at start up. Took to dealer to have it fixed, they said it is "normal" at high altitudes. Pulled out from the Vegas dealer, which is at a low altitude, and the brakes still didnt work! What can I do??

I will Assume you have a Redline, because all the reports have been of them. I have a 08 NA Sky, and used to have a 07 NA Sky. never have had a problem with the brakes...
There are several threads on here that goes into the problem...

By the way, Welcome to the Forum!

TINOONIT · 12-28-2007, 02:23 PM

My brakes do the same thing... There are many posts on this issue in this very forum... Try and read them all......
Then, do like the rest of us and go on www.NHTSA.com and file a complaint under "hydrolic brakes" for Saturn sky.

The more complaints the better. Maybe then they will listen. The dealer says this is normal for the car. I along with everyone else say it's a definate safety hazzard. PLEASE complain.... It will help.

The dealer will only give you a sheet that states it is normal for our brake system..... Any other questions, I'm here.

Bogie · 12-29-2007, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jodenessky

What can I do??

On cold start, wait 30 seconds and check brakes before releasing parking brake and putting in gear.

JRinKY · 12-29-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

TINOONIT : ..... Then, do like the rest of us and go on www.NHTSA.com and file a complaint under "hydrolic brakes" for Saturn sky.

Is it spelled "hydrolic" on the website ? It should be "hydraulic".

Quote:

The more complaints the better. Maybe then they will listen. The dealer says this is normal for the car. I along with everyone else say it's a definate safety hazzard. PLEASE complain.... It will help.

I can see it now, government action to solve this problem. NHTSA will:
1) Require an interlock that will only allow the car to be started with the hand brake engaged.
2) Require a second interlock that will not allow the handbrake to be released until brake booster pressure reaches the required level.
3) Require another warning light in the instrument cluster and a sign on the dashboard.

**SKYRCKT** · 12-29-2007, 10:17 AM

It appears that, like the leaking rear ends, this is a recurring problem. Check the search feature and you will find similar threads.

As for SKYRCKT, no problems yet at 11,000 miles.

pastohio · 12-29-2007, 11:10 AM

I have an 08 that just sat for 5 weeks, with 188 miles on it....drove it last night, brakes felt fine and worked as they should...also looking under the rear looks dry....thanks to all for the updates to our cars....

**Skip** · 12-29-2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKYRCKT

It appears that, like the leaking rear ends, this is a recurring problem. Check the search feature and you will find similar threads.

As for SKYRCKT, no problems yet at 11,000 miles.

Brake problems only on the 08's. 07's have the aux vacuum pump if I remember correctly...Skip...

JRinKY · 12-29-2007, 01:03 PM

The issue stems from how the brake boost vacuum is generated in the turbo cars. As Skip said, the '07s had a vacuum pump, but the '08s do not.

This statement is apparently not correct:
The problem is not so much that the brakes don't work, as that they do not work with the same pedal force. It takes a lot of pedal force to get any braking for the first couple of minutes after the engine is started. Once the vacuum builds up, there is not a problem.

1Man1Sky · 12-29-2007, 02:13 PM

As I and a few others have stated, pushing the pedal completely to the floor does not always stop the vehicle at initial start up and the car has sat for a period of time. So yes, for some, the issue is that the brakes DO NOT WORK 100% of the time.

My father, visiting for the holidays had moved my car out of the garage to get some things. I had not told him about the brake issue. He almost drove the car through my wall pulling it back into the garage.

Bogie · 12-31-2007, 02:41 PM

There are three basic brake conditions for an 08 RL:

1. Vacuum. Brakes work as expected.

2. Low Vacuum. ESC Hydraulics kick in. Brakes work as reduced capability, but car stops.

3. Low Vacuum. ESC Hydraulics kick in, but either don't operate correctly or fail. Car does not stop, even with full brake deflection.

Condition 1 is what everyone understands as normal brake operation. Full power assist.

Condition 2 is a suboptimal brake operation that requires more pressure, provides a different feedback feel from the vacuum assist, but ultimately stops the vehicle. This is the BY DESIGN hydraulic backup.

Condition 3 results in little of no brake. It is a failure of the hydraulic backup sytem.

The Condition 3 failure is masked by the Condition 2 feature. When a Condition 3 event occurs, the tendency is to attribute it to a Condition 2 event. Unless you have experienced a Condition 3 failure (I have not, but I believe those who have), there is no way to objectively judge those who have experienced it based on a Condition 2 event.

**Rustyknight** · 12-31-2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogie

There are three basic brake conditions for an 08 RL:

1. Vacuum. Brakes work as expected.

2. Low Vacuum. ESC Hydraulics kick in. Brakes work as reduced capability, but car stops.

3. Low Vacuum. ESC Hydraulics kick in, but either don't operate correctly or fail. Car does not stop, even with full brake deflection.

Condition 1 is what everyone understands as normal brake operation. Full power assist.

Condition 2 is a suboptimal brake operation that requires more pressure, provides a different feedback feel from the vacuum assist, but ultimately stops the vehicle. This is the BY DESIGN hydraulic backup.

Condition 3 results in little of no brake. It is a failure of the hydraulic backup sytem.

The Condition 3 failure is masked by the Condition 2 feature. When a Condition 3 event occurs, the tendency is to attribute it to a Condition 2 event. Unless you have experienced a Condition 3 failure (I have not, but I believe those who have), there is no way to objectively judge those who have experienced it based on a Condition 2 event.

I would be interested to see what would happen if a car with no brakes at startup was taken to a dealer and the dealer blocked the vacuum line to the brakes, the cars with the no brake problem should then have a reproducible issue hydraulic assit failure.

jodenessky · 12-31-2007, 08:45 PM

Thank you all for your responses. My brake problem is always at start up. Even after only a couple of hours of sitting. I live on top of a cliff and thought I had warmed up the car long enough and almost went off the edge! I'm calling the dealer again and filing a complaint.

TINOONIT · 01-01-2008, 09:22 PM

Bottom line people:

Complain on www.NHTSA.com and then pray they correct this safety issue ASAP.

None of us should have to "warm-up" the car before driving it, for the brakes to function properly. That's just ridiculous!
They need to fix it.... Period.

It's a SAFETY issue!

LostKnight · 01-01-2008, 10:00 PM

I just got my car but I noticed the same brake problem.

My best advice Jodenessky is this... Start the car in neutral (for a manual) or in park (for an automatic) with the parking brake set. Then pump the brakes a few times while warming the car up. When you first start the car you'll probably feel the pedal pulse and feel odd. If it feels odd let the car warm up a little bit more and try the brakes again. When the brake feels normal and you don't notice the pulsing then you're probably ready to roll without any problems.

BigSkyCountry · 01-02-2008, 04:05 AM

I live at 5,800 ft and it's been below 10 degrees each moring. My '08 doesn't seem to be affected and it's my daily driver. Ray

LostKnight · 01-02-2008, 06:31 AM

I noticed the pedal was mushy on mine at startup and it's garage kept at sea level. So I don't think altitude or temp is so much the issue.

Rob the Elder · 01-02-2008, 10:07 AM

I posted pictures in another thread here showing our 08 Sky vacume line and the 07 GXP vacume line. Both the 07 and 08 turbo cars use vacume pulled from the intake manifold for the brake booster at the same point. In fact, the intake manifolds look identical.

The vacume levels on our cars under some conditions is not sufficient to bring the vacume up to an acceptable level at start-up or probably conditions of high demand. So the 07s have an aux vacume pump mounted below the intake manifold. This pump comes on at start-up if the brake management system senses low (not enough) vacume condition. This pump will provide the needed vacume very quickly so the operator never senses a low vacume condition. On the 08s, the engineering replaced the aux vacume pump with a hydraulic pump. Its speculation on my part but I suspect that this change was driven by a need to provide increased hydraulic boost to the stability control and traction control system. At a guess, some drivers are using up all the available hydraulic power under high demand conditions and the stability control and / or traction control are loosing effectiveness. So GM switched to the hydraulic boost which is always available and supports all conditions of high demand (like on the track) while the aux vacume pump normally will only be used for a few seconds on start-up.

On the wife's 08 Sky, I have experienced the low vacume on start condition once in several months. The brakes defalted to the hydraulic boost and it stopped predictably and effectively. I tried to duplicate the experience within about 5 seconds but there was sufficient vacume by that time so it did not default over to the hydraulic boost.

When I went to driver's ed and again when I took my first drivers test to get my license, we had to stop on a hill and restart smoothly. This required using the hand brake. That is why the hand brake is there. In most user manuals they will tell you to park the vehicle in gear - 1st or reverse- and not use the "parking brake". I know, people will not believe this but unless you have a diesel engine which will start if turned over with the key off, parking in gear is the preferred method.

I was having a problem with my Ranger. The "parking brake" would hang after sitting in the cold for a day. I had to break them loose before I could drive to work. Since then I did the research and confirmed that the owners manual states do not use the emergency brake for parking.

I am somewhat amazed by a lot of the comments I read here. Anyone who ever drove a pre-1959 Vette knows that you had to stand on the brakes with both feet to get it to stop. LOL It's the "emergency brake" for a reason. When they first came out they were there for specific driving needs and were mechanical vrs hydraulic. People did not trust the new fangled hydraulic brake systems as one leak would leave you with NO brakes. So manufacturers made the emergency brake mechanical. Wires connected to one shoe in each of the rear brakes. Or some used a drum on the drive shaft with a single drag brake wrapped around the drum.It did not take manufacturers long to figure out how to make the hydraulic brakes redundant by having one front wheel and the opposite rear wheel on its own brake circuit. That way a single failure would still leave you with half your brakes.

If you have a condition where you have NO brakes then its a failure in the brakes its not a "problem" Its a failure. It needs to go to the dealer immediately and you need to tell them that upon start there was NO brake pedal. "It went to the floor". In the shop manual it clearly states that the mechanic must replicate the conditions described by the customer. If you tell them that "when I start the car with no vacume, the hydraulic booster does not function correctly and there is NO brake pedal" Then they can pull the vacume hose and vent the brake system to atmosphere. If they replicate the problem then you have something to fix.

If on the other hand you do have brake its just not the nice smooth feel you expect then in all probability the system is functioning as designed. If you dont have normal brake feel within a few minutes of starting, but do have brake pedal, then you have a failure of the vacume boost system, but not a total brake failure.

You may not like the hydraulic boost on start up but if its working then there is nothing broken. If its NOT working then you have a problem that needs to be fixed.

12-28-2007, 11:41 AM	#1 (permalink)
jodenessky Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 39 My Photos: (0)	Anyone else having brake problems?? From the day I brought my new 2008 Sky home I've had problems with the brakes not working after the car sits for a couple of hours. The problem is always at start up. Took to dealer to have it fixed, they said it is "normal" at high altitudes. Pulled out from the Vegas dealer, which is at a low altitude, and the brakes still didnt work! What can I do??

12-28-2007, 12:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
shabby Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: eh Posts: 346 My Photos: (0)	What do you mean "not working", you're pumping the pedal and the car isnt stopping? How can a dealer say this is "normal"? __________________ 2007 Solstice gxp

12-28-2007, 12:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
30notbad Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC..Between the Mountains and the Beach.. Nothing but backroads from here on out! Posts: 8 My Photos: (0)	Brake Issue joden, I own an 08 gxp and have had major brake issues, others on the gxp site have had problems too seems to be only the 08's. here is a link so you can read through and see if this is what is going on with yours. Our issue is only on a cold start or after the car has been sitting a couple of hours the brakes do not engage for the first 5 min after the car has been started. After pretty much threatning our dealer they had our EBCM replaced but it still seems that we have the problem and it is not 100% fixed yet. http://www.solsticegxpowners.com/for...ead.php?t=1718 Hope this helps!! __________________ 2008 Mysterious GXP 18" Chrome Wheels, Tinted Windows, , Red interior LED floor lights & Map lights, V1 Red Illuminated Wind Restrictor - Solo Performance 3" Street race exhaust, K&N Air Filter Last edited by 30notbad : 12-28-2007 at 12:49 PM.

12-28-2007, 12:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
Skip First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: deep in the land of cotton where good times there are not forgotten Posts: 4,736 My Photos: (0)	Please use the search key and read up about the brake problem on the 08's R/L. There are a couple of threads about it. I suggest that when you fire up your Sky you wait about two minutes to get full brakes ....Skip..Please read the threads for your own understanding... __________________ Resident Redneck of the forum and Birthday Greeter Keep on the sunny side of life It tant Christmas without Christ.

12-28-2007, 02:23 PM	#6 (permalink)
TINOONIT Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 122 My Photos: (0)	My Brakes are a joke at start-up My brakes do the same thing... There are many posts on this issue in this very forum... Try and read them all...... Then, do like the rest of us and go on www.NHTSA.com and file a complaint under "hydrolic brakes" for Saturn sky. The more complaints the better. Maybe then they will listen. The dealer says this is normal for the car. I along with everyone else say it's a definate safety hazzard. PLEASE complain.... It will help. The dealer will only give you a sheet that states it is normal for our brake system..... Any other questions, I'm here. __________________ 2008 Sky Redline Polar White-Tan top with Bl/Tan Leather 6 Disk Monsoon System Spoiler

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12-29-2007, 10:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
SKYRCKT Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Villa Rica, Georgia Posts: 694 My Photos: (20)	It appears that, like the leaking rear ends, this is a recurring problem. Check the search feature and you will find similar threads. As for SKYRCKT, no problems yet at 11,000 miles. __________________ 07 Sky R/L, bluestone, 5-speed, black interior, spoiler, chrome wheels, RPI GT exhaust, Personal Audio Link (PAL) iPod adapter, Lil Chromies, Opel-style antenna, JPM visor covers, GA license plate: SKYRCKT THE FLAME IS HOTTER WHEN IT'S BLUE!

12-29-2007, 11:10 AM	#10 (permalink)
pastohio Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 80 My Photos: (0)	I have an 08 that just sat for 5 weeks, with 188 miles on it....drove it last night, brakes felt fine and worked as they should...also looking under the rear looks dry....thanks to all for the updates to our cars....

12-29-2007, 01:03 PM	#12 (permalink)
JRinKY Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 1,504 My Photos: (0)	The issue stems from how the brake boost vacuum is generated in the turbo cars. As Skip said, the '07s had a vacuum pump, but the '08s do not. This statement is apparently not correct: The problem is not so much that the brakes don't work, as that they do not work with the same pedal force. It takes a lot of pedal force to get any braking for the first couple of minutes after the engine is started. Once the vacuum builds up, there is not a problem. __________________ John Lexington, KY VIN 00252 2.4 Manual Midnight Blue Last edited by JRinKY : 12-29-2007 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Incorrect statement

12-29-2007, 02:13 PM	#13 (permalink)
1Man1Sky Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Michigan Posts: 303 My Photos: (0)	As I and a few others have stated, pushing the pedal completely to the floor does not always stop the vehicle at initial start up and the car has sat for a period of time. So yes, for some, the issue is that the brakes DO NOT WORK 100% of the time. My father, visiting for the holidays had moved my car out of the garage to get some things. I had not told him about the brake issue. He almost drove the car through my wall pulling it back into the garage. __________________ ' '08 Chili Pepper Red/Black Leather Red Line/Auto Monsoon w/6 Disc Changer Chrome Wheels LSD Add Ons: Lil' Chromies Windrestrictor got sky? Decal Opel GT Antenna Tinted Windows 50% RED LINE Third Brake Light Overlay Last edited by 1Man1Sky : 12-29-2007 at 02:15 PM.

12-31-2007, 02:41 PM	#14 (permalink)
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Northern, VA Posts: 2,476 My Photos: (0)	There are three basic brake conditions for an 08 RL: 1. Vacuum. Brakes work as expected. 2. Low Vacuum. ESC Hydraulics kick in. Brakes work as reduced capability, but car stops. 3. Low Vacuum. ESC Hydraulics kick in, but either don't operate correctly or fail. Car does not stop, even with full brake deflection. Condition 1 is what everyone understands as normal brake operation. Full power assist. Condition 2 is a suboptimal brake operation that requires more pressure, provides a different feedback feel from the vacuum assist, but ultimately stops the vehicle. This is the BY DESIGN hydraulic backup. Condition 3 results in little of no brake. It is a failure of the hydraulic backup sytem. The Condition 3 failure is masked by the Condition 2 feature. When a Condition 3 event occurs, the tendency is to attribute it to a Condition 2 event. Unless you have experienced a Condition 3 failure (I have not, but I believe those who have), there is no way to objectively judge those who have experienced it based on a Condition 2 event. __________________ 2008 Redline Black Onyx Black/Red Leather Monsoon 6 Disc Spoiler French Transmission Born July 2007 Snagged 8/31/07 Belle? That's my car Alizée? That's my avatar Me? Forty something male skydriver

12-31-2007, 08:45 PM	#16 (permalink)
jodenessky Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 39 My Photos: (0)	Thank you all for your responses. My brake problem is always at start up. Even after only a couple of hours of sitting. I live on top of a cliff and thought I had warmed up the car long enough and almost went off the edge! I'm calling the dealer again and filing a complaint.

01-01-2008, 09:22 PM	#17 (permalink)
TINOONIT Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 122 My Photos: (0)	08' Redline Brakes! Bottom line people: Complain on www.NHTSA.com and then pray they correct this safety issue ASAP. None of us should have to "warm-up" the car before driving it, for the brakes to function properly. That's just ridiculous! They need to fix it.... Period. It's a SAFETY issue! __________________ 2008 Sky Redline Polar White-Tan top with Bl/Tan Leather 6 Disk Monsoon System Spoiler

01-01-2008, 10:00 PM	#18 (permalink)
LostKnight Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 122 My Photos: (2)	I just got my car but I noticed the same brake problem. My best advice Jodenessky is this... Start the car in neutral (for a manual) or in park (for an automatic) with the parking brake set. Then pump the brakes a few times while warming the car up. When you first start the car you'll probably feel the pedal pulse and feel odd. If it feels odd let the car warm up a little bit more and try the brakes again. When the brake feels normal and you don't notice the pulsing then you're probably ready to roll without any problems. __________________ 2008 Redline - Forest Green/Tan/Tan 3 Pedals, 6 Disc Monsoon, Spoiler, Factory Chrome Rims, Opel Antenna, Mud Guards, Lil Chromies, 3rd Brake Light Decal WindRestrictor V2, JPM Visors

01-02-2008, 04:05 AM	#19 (permalink)
BigSkyCountry Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Wyoming Posts: 198 My Photos: (0)	I live at 5,800 ft and it's been below 10 degrees each moring. My '08 doesn't seem to be affected and it's my daily driver. Ray __________________ 2008 R/L with no cute little name... Stick, Midnight Blue, Black/Tan Leather Tan Top, Monsoon 6 Disc, Spoiler, Fujita CAI, MagnaFlow 3" CatBack, El Rancho red poly swaybar bushings ...and a block heater, unfortunately

01-02-2008, 06:31 AM	#20 (permalink)
LostKnight Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 122 My Photos: (2)	I noticed the pedal was mushy on mine at startup and it's garage kept at sea level. So I don't think altitude or temp is so much the issue. __________________ 2008 Redline - Forest Green/Tan/Tan 3 Pedals, 6 Disc Monsoon, Spoiler, Factory Chrome Rims, Opel Antenna, Mud Guards, Lil Chromies, 3rd Brake Light Decal WindRestrictor V2, JPM Visors

01-02-2008, 10:07 AM	#21 (permalink)
Rob the Elder Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Parker Colorado Posts: 308 My Photos: (1)	I posted pictures in another thread here showing our 08 Sky vacume line and the 07 GXP vacume line. Both the 07 and 08 turbo cars use vacume pulled from the intake manifold for the brake booster at the same point. In fact, the intake manifolds look identical. The vacume levels on our cars under some conditions is not sufficient to bring the vacume up to an acceptable level at start-up or probably conditions of high demand. So the 07s have an aux vacume pump mounted below the intake manifold. This pump comes on at start-up if the brake management system senses low (not enough) vacume condition. This pump will provide the needed vacume very quickly so the operator never senses a low vacume condition. On the 08s, the engineering replaced the aux vacume pump with a hydraulic pump. Its speculation on my part but I suspect that this change was driven by a need to provide increased hydraulic boost to the stability control and traction control system. At a guess, some drivers are using up all the available hydraulic power under high demand conditions and the stability control and / or traction control are loosing effectiveness. So GM switched to the hydraulic boost which is always available and supports all conditions of high demand (like on the track) while the aux vacume pump normally will only be used for a few seconds on start-up. On the wife's 08 Sky, I have experienced the low vacume on start condition once in several months. The brakes defalted to the hydraulic boost and it stopped predictably and effectively. I tried to duplicate the experience within about 5 seconds but there was sufficient vacume by that time so it did not default over to the hydraulic boost. When I went to driver's ed and again when I took my first drivers test to get my license, we had to stop on a hill and restart smoothly. This required using the hand brake. That is why the hand brake is there. In most user manuals they will tell you to park the vehicle in gear - 1st or reverse- and not use the "parking brake". I know, people will not believe this but unless you have a diesel engine which will start if turned over with the key off, parking in gear is the preferred method. I was having a problem with my Ranger. The "parking brake" would hang after sitting in the cold for a day. I had to break them loose before I could drive to work. Since then I did the research and confirmed that the owners manual states do not use the emergency brake for parking. I am somewhat amazed by a lot of the comments I read here. Anyone who ever drove a pre-1959 Vette knows that you had to stand on the brakes with both feet to get it to stop. LOL It's the "emergency brake" for a reason. When they first came out they were there for specific driving needs and were mechanical vrs hydraulic. People did not trust the new fangled hydraulic brake systems as one leak would leave you with NO brakes. So manufacturers made the emergency brake mechanical. Wires connected to one shoe in each of the rear brakes. Or some used a drum on the drive shaft with a single drag brake wrapped around the drum.It did not take manufacturers long to figure out how to make the hydraulic brakes redundant by having one front wheel and the opposite rear wheel on its own brake circuit. That way a single failure would still leave you with half your brakes. If you have a condition where you have NO brakes then its a failure in the brakes its not a "problem" Its a failure. It needs to go to the dealer immediately and you need to tell them that upon start there was NO brake pedal. "It went to the floor". In the shop manual it clearly states that the mechanic must replicate the conditions described by the customer. If you tell them that "when I start the car with no vacume, the hydraulic booster does not function correctly and there is NO brake pedal" Then they can pull the vacume hose and vent the brake system to atmosphere. If they replicate the problem then you have something to fix. If on the other hand you do have brake its just not the nice smooth feel you expect then in all probability the system is functioning as designed. If you dont have normal brake feel within a few minutes of starting, but do have brake pedal, then you have a failure of the vacume boost system, but not a total brake failure. You may not like the hydraulic boost on start up but if its working then there is nothing broken. If its NOT working then you have a problem that needs to be fixed.