don't call us and BTW we may not call you

[tcldarr]

engine light came on again (3rd time) in 6000 miles. Error code P013A...replaced back O2 sensor first time. Second time, replaced front O2 sensor. Third time, they said the fuel I'm using (Mobil 93oc, BP 93oc, or Citco 93oc) may be the problem, due to the ethanol content.

So they washed my car and sent me on my way....

What else can they do? What can I do? I'll just time my engine lights with car washes from now on until my warrenty runs out.......right

SOmething about this stinks.....I've been pleasant and patient the first two times but I just got a two hour car wash and my light reset....thats it.

Their only recommendation, not fix, is to use top tier gas.

[Sky_Pilot]

Originally Posted by tcldarr

engine light came on again (3rd time) in 6000 miles. Error code P013A...replaced back O2 sensor first time. Second time, replaced front O2 sensor. Third time, they said the fuel I'm using (Mobil 93oc, BP 93oc, or Citco 93oc) may be the problem, due to the ethanol content.

So they washed my car and sent me on my way....

What else can they do? What can I do? I'll just time my engine lights with car washes from now on until my warrenty runs out.......right

SOmething about this stinks.....I've been pleasant and patient the first two times but I just got a two hour car wash and my light reset....thats it.

Their only recommendation, not fix, is to use top tier gas.

Here are four suggestions:

SATURN OF ORLANDO SOUTH

8620 S ORANGE BLOSSOM TR
ORLANDO, FL 32809
(407) 438-2020


SATURN OF OSCEOLA

2184 E IRLO BRONSON MEM HY
KISSIMMEE, FL 34744
(407) 933-1700


SATURN OF THE LAKES

200 E BURLEIGH BLVD
TAVARES, FL 32778
(352) 343-5005



SATURN OF DAYTONA

650 NORTH NOVA ROAD
DAYTONA BEACH, FL 32114
(386) 255-2252



I have a dealer around the corner, which I have tried to use with no success, so I now drive 50 miles to Oceanside, Ca to a dealer that DOES treat me like a valued customer.

[ggccg]

Your dealer is full of it. Take your car elsewhere for service.

"GM began promoting ethanol more than two decades ago and was the first manufacturer to enable its entire U.S. fleet to operate on E10, a blend of 90 percent gasoline and 10 percent ethanol." GM - Fuel Economy - News - Hybrids - GM Extends Biofuels Leadership With Coskata Partnership

[dipolley]

Originally Posted by tcldarr

Their only recommendation, not fix, is to use top tier gas.

Ummmm top tier? Like what 109 octane? 93 isn't good enough. I have no problems in my redline. I run only 91 octane and 93 when it is available. You should be having no problems. There is something wrong and they are being lazy. It's always ALWAYS easier to blame the driver and not the equipment when the technician doesn't know what to do to fix it.

[Va_Sky]

I have run mainly Amoco 93 and I have never had a problem... The only time that I have run anything different I ran Exxon 93 on a trip when I could not find an Amoco.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by tcldarr

Third time, they said the fuel I'm using (Mobil 93oc, BP 93oc, or Citco 93oc) may be the problem, due to the ethanol content.

Did you get that quote in writing on the ticket. If not, demand it. Make sure they list the brands you are using and their belief it may be the problem.

Then write a letter to the Consumer Affairs of each of those Gasoline companies with a cc to GM corporate stating GM believes the problems with your car is due to the ethanol content in their gasoline.....and watch the fur fly.

[Jay_Sin]

I'm surprised I don't find mobil on this list of top tier retailers.

QuikTrip
Chevron
Conoco
Phillips
76
Shell
Entec Stations
MFA Oil Company
Kwik Trip/Kwik Star
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
Chevron-Canada
Aloha Petroleum
Tri-Par Oil Company
Shell-Canada
Texaco
Petro-Canada
Sunoco-Canada

I highly doubt that is your problem though. If that was the case I don't think any of them would be driving around here withoout the engine light on. I don't know of any top tier stations in my area.

[rmcpherson]

Originally Posted by tcldarr

engine light came on again (3rd time) in 6000 miles. Error code P013A...replaced back O2 sensor first time. Second time, replaced front O2 sensor. Third time, they said the fuel I'm using (Mobil 93oc, BP 93oc, or Citco 93oc) may be the problem, due to the ethanol content.

So they washed my car and sent me on my way....

What else can they do? What can I do? I'll just time my engine lights with car washes from now on until my warrenty runs out.......right

SOmething about this stinks.....I've been pleasant and patient the first two times but I just got a two hour car wash and my light reset....thats it.

Their only recommendation, not fix, is to use top tier gas.

no such code as a P013A, is this a typo or is this what they told you

[tcldarr]

yep thats what written on two of my tech service receipts...code P013A, oxygen sensor slow to respond....

And I did ask for the verbal response about the ethanol possibly being the cause and that eng support has had other complaints of oxygen sensor issues, and that they are looking into the matter. Obviously, not all redlines are affected, but they can't explain it...so they are looking into this. When I askd for this to be documented, the service advisor said that he couldn't do that, so I lost it and it went down hill from there. Ultimately, I ended up with a case number thats supposed to re-assure me that they are investigating...

I keep bring up this message forum and others that have had this problem, and had their O2 sensors replaced and in some cases, cat convertor and or spark plugs, and they refuse to do that cause those components check out, and they don't believe it would do anything (STAY AWAY FROM THOSE MESSAGE BOARDS, JUST FILLED WITH ANGRY BITTER PEOPLE! LOL)

I ended up called Saturn Customer Service and got that ball rolling and filed a complaint. I really didn't want to get the service advisor in trouble, seems like a nice guy, but **** this three times **** and then send me on my way telling me its the gas...maybe, maybe not, but there is something about my car different from 1 million others apparently...right? Find it and fix it

[rmcpherson]

H02S 1 Slow to respond is a code P0133. This code sets for the front 02 sensor under numerous conditions being met. If all circuit voltages and resistances are within normal values and they have replaced the front 02 sensor then they need to replace the ECM. Apparently the techs arn't following the diagnostic flow charts.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Jay_Sin

I'm surprised I don't find mobil on this list of top tier retailers.

1. GM (and a few other manufactures) own Top Tier.
2. To become Top Tier, you basically gotta pay GM.

Although the gas must meet standards to become Top Tier, the Top Tier detergent standard (as best I can tell) is no greater than I can find required by the EPA. There are some tests involved, but I have found nothing that suggest gasoline meeting the EPA standard would not pass.

Exxon/Mobile has been queried about this and they state their gasoline meets or exceeds the Top Tier standard. They didn't come out and say it, but it is my understanding Exxon/Mobile does not want to pay GM for the Top Tier label as it would be a "rubber stamp" for a capability Exxon/Moble already meets.

The concept of Top Tier might not be a bad idea if the process and costs were more transparent, but they're not. I can see value in an INDEPENDENT certification for gasoline. But Top Tier is NOT independent. It is owned and applied by manufactures, and paid for by the gas companies. This creates a monetary conflict of interest between the manufacturers (e.g., GM) that own the label and the gas companies that pay to get that label applied to their gasoline.

"Top Tier" may be to gasoline what Bill Gates said about "User Friendly" software. How do you make use friendly software? Stamp "Use Friendly" on the box. How do you make Top Tier gasoline? Stamp "Top Tier" on the pump.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by rmcpherson

no such code as a P013A, is this a typo or is this what they told you

Just wait to you get the P05#17 code. Then you are really screwed.

[GetAboutRL]

Here are a few items you may want to check-out.

1. If you use a K&N Red Line 'oil' air-filter, if the oil gets sucked onto your air sensor's .. you'll get an engine light. Clean sensor's. Besure you let recently cleaned/oiled air-filter set for a couple of days to dry off good. (fyi) NAPA sells a cheap ($16) paper filter to use until your K&N is dry.

2. Check exhaust clamps to ensure they are secure and pipes are on correctly. Speed bumps can move and depending where it moved, it could trip a sensor.

3. Besure you have the correct air-filter in. Sounds funny but K&N uses a different filter for the Red Line. The wrong one trips the engine light.

4. Of course check hose/pipe connects under in hood.

5. Besure your gas cap is turn a quarter way past on or again if it is not tight ... bingo ... the light could go on.

6. You might want to add a can of dry gas with your next fill up. Condensation/water is possible. Of course, if you got some dirty gas (pumping your gas while the gas-station was getting a load dumped into their holding tanks ... might mean a new fuel filter and pumping out your gas tank.

So there are six possible cures or causes. Maybe someone else can add to this list.

Happy trails.

[tcldarr]

well,

The the past two times the light came on, it went off by itself after approx 1-2 days. I think the first time, it was 1 week and service rep reset it.
This last time (3rd) It came on after adding gas, BP 93oc, and I did give the gas cap many clicks (always do). I only noticed the light coming on after about 1-2 miles after filling up and very shorting after full turbo down the interstate on ramp (was on my way from orlando to tampa to see yanks/drays)..the whole dam trip I kept staring at the dam light.....LOL

They are definetly not fans of this or any message forum. I've mentioned things that I have read here, just to contribute what I can to the troubleshooting process and I've been told, these boards are just worthless and filled with angry peeps, so don't believe everything you read....but really, what else are they going to say..right....

The car runs like a champ, as far as I can tell (im no expert) and I'm happy with it, just can't understand why the light comes on every 2000 miles or so, and like I said, the last two times went off after 1-2 days or so....Onstar has the reports and re-iterates what saturn says...O2 sensor slow to respond, but as long as engine is not struggling or anything, its ok to drive....

After filing the formal complaint against the dealer service dep, I hope the next time I take it in, I dont get the business, and get bumped to the backburner or they screw with my car now....LOL......

Maybe I did over react, but dam, tree times, same problem, and they just sent me on my way with nothing but a car wash and gas advice, that bothered me......on the other hand, I'm not sure I want swap tronics and weeks in the shop either, im conflicted LOL

[hyperode]

HEATED OXYGEN SENSOR (HO2S) MONITOR - HO2S SLOW RESPONSE RATE
Diagnostic Trouble Code Description Possible Causes
P0133 - HO2S Sensor Circuit Slow The HO2S monitor checks the Electrical:
Response (HO2S-11) HO2S sensor frequency and
•Shorted/open wiring amplitude.
If during testing, the frequency and amplitude were to fall:
check •PCM (ECM) below a calibrated limit, the code
will set.
Induction System:
•MAF sensor (On 4-cylinder engines, if
P0133 is present, this could be caused by
a MAF issue - on 6- and 8-cylinder
engines, this could only be a MAF issue if
P0133 and P0153 are both present)
•Inlet air leaks (unmetered air)
Fuel Concerns:
•Poor fuel quality
Base Engine:
•Exhaust leaks (upstream or near HO2S)
HO2S Concerns:
•Contaminated HO2S sensor
(contamination from the use of
silicone-based cleaners and sealants,
leaded fuel, excessive oil consumption,
etc.)
•Deteriorating HO2S sensor
P0153 - HO2S Sensor Circuit Slow Same as DTC P0133, but Bank 2. See Possible Causes for DTC P0133

All the above is why they are saying lets give it some time and see if it's just the gas first. The quality fuel we are getting lately is usually the culprit and its not always the ethanol. Its more than likely contaminates. If they changed out both O2 sensors and still had the same code after I'm kind of surprised they also didn't change out or look closely at the MAF (Mass Air Flow Sensor). Arm chair mechanics aint it great!

Good Luck,

[tcldarr]

Well Hyperode, maybe you (and them) are right and it is the gas. I guess I have little choice but to give it more time and just keep bringing it back if it continues to happen. Why they haven't done more as you suggest? Well, my feeling is, if its not the gas, whatever is causing this problem has not yet gotten severe enough to cause a major problem, so they may not want to start guessing and pre-emptively (spelled right?) start replacing other components that might be expensive for them. I was just figuring, based on other posts that after both O2 sensors have been changed they would go for the cat converter. At one point (on my second engine light) they said if it happens again they would replace the cat, but when it actually did have again, they said no because tech support changed their mind and decided that wouldn't solve the problem.....even though others have had that done on their cars, with these same O2 codes and it seemed to have fixed theirs, or they just stopped posting LOL....

[Rail Jockey]

I have had my red line in for the check engine light at least 6 time maybe more. I would have to get the paper work out to be sure. It has always been the same codes and it blows the exhaust fuse. They started by replacing the fuse and reseting the light, then replace the O2 sensors, then the ECM, then the fuse block and finally they replaced the full wiring harness. The wiring harness did the trick, at least I haven't had a light since they rewired it.
That is until today. I was getting on the interstate and while accelerating I heard bang like a back fire and it went into limp mode. The code it through is P0101. I called on star and they said it was mass air flow. I have let it rest and restarted it several times and still no turbo boost not even 1 or 2 boost. I'm thinking maybe the turbo is gone.
Any Ideas?

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by tcldarr

STAY AWAY FROM THOSE MESSAGE BOARDS, JUST FILLED WITH ANGRY BITTER PEOPLE!

If they say that again, please ask the leading question:

How do you know?

To know first hand requires one to actually come to the site and read it. If that's the case, ask a follow-up leading question

When was the last time you were online and what in particular did you find angry and bitter?

If they got the information second or third hand, you can pretty much torpedo the comment with:

Well, I'm on the site on a daily basis and the large percentage of comments are positive and supporting of the vehicle, and very supportive of dealerships who support them. So I would give you some friendly advice that before you start passing on unsubstantiated rumors to Saturn customers bashing other Saturn customers who support YOU and your dealership, I would suggest you verify the validity of those rumors yourself.

[hyperode]

Originally Posted by tcldarr

I was just figuring, based on other posts that after both O2 sensors have been changed they would go for the cat converter. At one point (on my second engine light) they said if it happens again they would replace the cat, but when it actually did have again, they said no because tech support changed their mind and decided that wouldn't solve the problem.....even though others have had that done on their cars, with these same O2 codes and it seemed to have fixed theirs, or they just stopped posting LOL....

It may not be the gas at all but your intermittent light will not point them in the right direction until the actual part fails and the light stays on. Simply put the emmissions sensors (O2, MAF, MAP, etc,) all communicate with the electronic control module (ecm) to tell the ecm how to adjust fuel flows to operate the engine in the most efficient mode. If a sensor fails the ecm realizes this and adjusts to a default setting to allow the car to run. This is usually a rich fuel flow setting (burning more gas lately?). The car wil run fine and probably seem to run better than before the failure. What will happen if this mode continues is you will not pass an emmissions test and your catalytic converter will be working overtime (smell any rotten egg smell more than usual?). The service tech wants to know for sure which emmissions control factor (component) is causing the code becausie if he replaces the cat with out knowing what caused the failure(not saying that your cat is bad) you will be back again looking for another cat. Otherwise, try another service department for a second opinion.

Good Luck,