Tearin' Down a Red Line (SPIRIT)

[jarcher]

Thanks John, it's like a soap opera... As the stomach turns...

[MidniteBlues]

Appears to me that "spirit" no longer has any spirits. I bet the more they tear down the more damage they'll find. Looks to me that this poor car was destine to destruction by perhaps the way that engine was assembled. The black soot all over is dis-concerning to say the least, but that is a minor issue IMO vs what they will find when they get to the "heart" of the matter. IMO, that engine should be totally removed from the car and taken apart piece by piece. I don't think you have seen the worst yet, wait, you'll see. Right now, they have just scratched the surface. Outer parts are already showing major damage, what do you think they will find when they really dig into it? Why haven't they remove that dam head yet? I think they are afraid--This is a BIG learning curve for those techs I'm sure they'll appreciate the experience down the road-- Of course in the mean time, JohnD is walking--

[CJsSky]

Originally Posted by MidniteBlues

Appears to me that "spirit" no longer has any spirits. I bet the more they tear down the more damage they'll find. Looks to me that this poor car was destine to destruction by perhaps the way that engine was assembled. The black soot all over is dis-concerning to say the least, but that is a minor issue IMO vs what they will find when they get to the "heart" of the matter. IMO, that engine should be totally removed from the car and taken apart piece by piece. I don't think you have seen the worst yet, wait, you'll see. Right now, they have just scratched the surface. Outer parts are already showing major damage, what do you think they will find when they really dig into it? Why haven't they remove that dam head yet? I think they are afraid--This is a BIG learning curve for those techs I'm sure they'll appreciate the experience down the road-- Of course in the mean time, JohnD is walking--

I think Spirit needs some spirits.

That's got to be painful. I still remember going through this with my turismo.
That was 20 years ago.

[AstroSky]

John,

I think it is time to throw in the towel on this one. With Cali lemon law and 21 days already you are not getting this car back anytime soon. I wouldn't take that engine back even if it could be repaired. As was said before, this engine was meant to implode.

Go get yourself a brand new one for the aggravation you have gone through.

Astro.

[nscrbug]

Been following this thread with GREAT interest because our 08 RL is soon to arrive and quite frankly...I am extremely nervous about taking delivery of it after hearing/reading about the numerous horror stories about these RL engine problems. Our base has had it's share of annoying problems...however, none of them involve or have affected the motor in any way. I would hate to get rid of a good running base Sky in return for a POS RL that is destined to have engine problems. Oh...what to do?!?!

[jarcher]

Originally Posted by nscrbug

Been following this thread with GREAT interest because our 08 RL is soon to arrive and quite frankly...I am extremely nervous about taking delivery of it after hearing/reading about the numerous horror stories about these RL engine problems. Our base has had it's share of annoying problems...however, none of them involve or have affected the motor in any way. I would hate to get rid of a good running base Sky in return for a POS RL that is destined to have engine problems. Oh...what to do?!?!

I think that's a bit over the top. Most RL 2.0 engines run just fine. But, if you want more power, send the base Sky to RPI power and let him play with it for a few days

[MBVette]

john,

If you are intrested in the lemon law, write the letter now to saturn stating that you are intrested in a buy back/replacement for vin# and then write the issue out. Send it out certified mail w/ return receipt. Once they got that letter from me I got a call the next day saying they will buy it back.

IMHO I would cut my losses on this car now as a new engine will kill your resale value down the road. If you still want a Sky get the to replace the car. Its pretty simple just takes awhile to get done. I dropped my car off on 6/6 and I should be getting my check on Thursday, so its not to bad.

[eldeeko]

Originally Posted by JohnD

I talked to Saturn Customer Service and opened up a case number. The rep sounded genuinely horrified by my experience.
"You took your car in WHEN? June 18th?! And they STILL don't have it back to you yet? I hope the loaner is to your liking. They didn't offer you a loaner?!? What? Denying your warranty on a shattered cylinder due to a non-GM Air Intake? Are you sure that's what they said? They didn't give it to you in writing? WHAT!?!?! Well, you can expect a call from a regional manager no later than noon tomorrow..."That was emotionally satisfying at least.
More pictures tomorrow...

Wow! What bad Page Ranking that dealer is going to be getting if He/She doesn't get off of their behinds and get at least a new "Crate Engine" for you. Not to mention my dealer gets me a Hertz Rental anytime my "bluebaby" has to stay overnight (and foots the bill). You should be driving a new Aura at least while you wait for that "New" engine.

[nscrbug]

Originally Posted by jarcher

I think that's a bit over the top. Most RL 2.0 engines run just fine. But, if you want more power, send the base Sky to RPI power and let him play with it for a few days

No thanks...not interested in after-market power. We will just keep our fingers crossed and pray that we don't end up with one of the lemons.

[Talz]

So far the lemon engines appears to be something like 0.01% of the RL's and GXPs sold.

[Antonio]

Originally Posted by Talz

So far the lemon engines appears to be something like 0.01% of the RL's and GXPs sold.

i agree, my RL has been pulling strong since day 1 with no mechanical problems. John is the first true "engine failure" that i've heard about on these forums. Yeah, some report misfires, but not anything like this. I drove it as energetically back then as I do now, and it just keeps asking for more.

Also, i agree with MBVette. I think it's time to cut your losses. Even if they rebuild the engine for you under warranty, it wouldn't be worth it IMO. Rebuilt engine or new engine all together will seriously depreciate the value of Spirt. I think your best option would be to cut losses, have them buy it back, and start from scratch. You will be losing a bit in aftermarket parts which sucks

If it does come down to it, hope to see you back in the seat of another RL real soon John

[Robotech]

The damage to the turbo could have been heat related but it could also be a materials issue too. I wonder what that divides and if that crack is the reason for yoru problems. The two may be connected or they could be two random issues. Could also be that the crack was caused by material exiting the cylinder it's way out but I'd think you'd see damage to the impellers if this was the case and I'm just not seeing that. However, there are a couple light spots in that turbo shot and that COULD indicate something went through there.

Otherwise, like I said much earlier, you need a whole new engine for this car and take nothing less IF you decide not to go lemon law.

[Ernest]

Get a replacement SKY, you deserve to have it replaced, not repaired. I am fixin to have to do the same thing possibly with my Outlook as it has twice been in for terrible roof leaks. Saturn has even sent a TSB on it. At present it sits at the dealer awaiting a new headliner as the original one was ruined from the previoous leaks. OUTLOOK's have a drain tube issue, it cannot handle heavy rains.

[ihawk95]

This has been terrible customer service by the dealer. My Grand Prix just went out of warranty and my dealer still gave me a loaner.

My ex and I had a 97 Grand Am. It was 6 months old when the rear axle cracked. I think we went 6 weeks with a loaner while they were waiting for a redesigned rear axle. After that all kinds of other stupid stuff fell apart - the radio broke, the power windows would only go down 1/2 way, didn't have power mirrors but they whole mechanism to move them fell apart...and finally the last straw...the handle on the glove box fell apart so the glove box wouldn't close. The car was barely a year old. Took it to the dealer and all I wanted was them to pull the glove box light out until we could get the car in for repairs. They wouldn't do it.

We left. I was furious and told the ex to turn around and go to the sales department. Told the sales guy we no longer even wanted the thing cause it was a POS. He turned around and said "I don't blame you, we'll find you another car." He sold us the car he was driving cause it was the only 99 they had (the 99's were redesigned). It was during that GM strike and they had maybe 20 cars/trucks on the lot. He got us pretty much the same deal as we had before and we didn't have any trouble with the 99. We were happy. Ended up buying a 3rd car from that dealer 3 or 4 years later.

The dealer needs to make this right. You should have a loaner at their expense. You either need a new Sky or in the very least a new engine. Keep climbing up the ladder until you are satisfied because this is terrible service on their part.

[stonebreaker]

Originally Posted by Robotech

The damage to the turbo could have been heat related but it could also be a materials issue too. I wonder what that divides and if that crack is the reason for yoru problems. The two may be connected or they could be two random issues.

That divider divides the two inlets to the turbine. That's what's meant by "dual scroll" turbo. Two cylinders go in one side, two cyliinders in the other. Makes the turbo more efficient by evening out the exhaust pulses.

As for the cracking, well, cast iron cracks. I doubt it's related to the other metal. The exhaust manifolds on certain models of cars also have a tendacy to crack.

On the other metal: How do you know it's steel? Weight? Magnetism? If it's magnetic, you can probably rule out a valve - stainless steel is usually not magnetic.

Carbon fouling: If the O2 sensor reads excess oxygen in the exhaust, it will richen up the air/fuel mix. Since the car only has one O2 sensor, it can't tell which cylinder is lean and so increases the injector pulse width on all cylinders. Since #1 obviously wasn't firing, the excess oxygen from the dead cylinder was probably causing the computer to see a lean condition even when it didn't really exist.

[ZDShadow]

Originally Posted by CJsSky

I think Spirit needs some spirits.

That's got to be painful. I still remember going through this with my turismo.
That was 20 years ago.

Reading this thread makes me want to drink...and cry...maybe drink and cry...er...cry in my drink...well, maybe just drink...not necessarily in that order. Hate seeing a beautiful piece of machinery go bad...

[ChgoBlues]

Ok, heres my having been a service writer at a dealer for 7 years and being a customer of Saturn since 1994 and a current Ion Red Line owner.

In regards to some concerns about the RL engines, its basically the same motor that was used in the Ion Red Line, only it uses a turbo and not a supercharger. In the years the engine was used in the Ion application, I never ran across this type of issue with the engines so I would consider them a reliable engine, sorry if some don't feel that way based on some of the issues mentioned in other threads in the Sky. Misfires have and will always occur in an engine. Just now we have the bloody technology to pick them up even if they are the slightest thing because of emission standards. I wouldn't fault the engine for that nor its reliablity. The issue you are having, yes I would fault as an engine failure, weather it be due to materials or assembly.

Your dealer: I dont know how long they've been around but WHY did they wait so long to get Saturn involved or have they yet? At the FIRST sign of this type of issue, the service manager should have contacted Saturn Retailer Assistance if not his regional support. This would for one, cover their butts in case there is an issue regarding what needed to be done, second, assist you in getting transportation, cover your butt in case there is an issue with the engine and keep you in their good graces. And most important, keep on them to find what the problem and cause is so should it need a new engine, they can get it there ASAP. You have had more patience than many customers I ever dealt with. Most were on the phone to Saturn within 36 hours of their vehicle being brought in wanting to know what they were going to do for them.

In terms of the car. Well, lets not condemn the WHOLE car for an engine failure. More than likely with this type of damage, Saturn will want the entire engine back to research WHY this type of failure occured. So I doubt it would even be rebuilt BUT it is a remote chance they would. In speaking with Saturn Customer Assistance or the service manager, I would let them know your 'minimum' acceptable repair to this vehicle is a new engine. With parts in the intake, its hard to see what other damage to other cylinders has occured because of the vaccuum created inside an engine. If you feel you want a completely new vehicle, by all means push for it but how long are you willing to wait for that new vehicle to arrive given allocations? Just some food for thought. I understand all too well the techs taking the time to do the disassembly. Not only is there a learning curve on this but they are also looking for other damage, least the techs in the shop I worked in were doing this. Every part was gone over and things like cracks and such were of note.

OK, little more than 2cents but I empathsize with you and can fully understand your 'pain'. Good luck. Great pics. I do miss this aspect of that job, learning about these types of issues. Always thought it made me a better service writer.

[Antonio]

Originally Posted by ChgoBlues

Ok, heres my having been a service writer at a dealer for 7 years and being a customer of Saturn since 1994 and a current Ion Red Line owner.

In regards to some concerns about the RL engines, its basically the same motor that was used in the Ion Red Line, only it uses a turbo and not a supercharger. In the years the engine was used in the Ion application, I never ran across this type of issue with the engines so I would consider them a reliable engine, sorry if some don't feel that way based on some of the issues mentioned in other threads in the Sky. Misfires have and will always occur in an engine. Just now we have the bloody technology to pick them up even if they are the slightest thing because of emission standards. I wouldn't fault the engine for that nor its reliablity. The issue you are having, yes I would fault as an engine failure, weather it be due to materials or assembly.

Your dealer: I dont know how long they've been around but WHY did they wait so long to get Saturn involved or have they yet? At the FIRST sign of this type of issue, the service manager should have contacted Saturn Retailer Assistance if not his regional support. This would for one, cover their butts in case there is an issue regarding what needed to be done, second, assist you in getting transportation, cover your butt in case there is an issue with the engine and keep you in their good graces. And most important, keep on them to find what the problem and cause is so should it need a new engine, they can get it there ASAP. You have had more patience than many customers I ever dealt with. Most were on the phone to Saturn within 36 hours of their vehicle being brought in wanting to know what they were going to do for them.

In terms of the car. Well, lets not condemn the WHOLE car for an engine failure. More than likely with this type of damage, Saturn will want the entire engine back to research WHY this type of failure occured. So I doubt it would even be rebuilt BUT it is a remote chance they would. In speaking with Saturn Customer Assistance or the service manager, I would let them know your 'minimum' acceptable repair to this vehicle is a new engine. With parts in the intake, its hard to see what other damage to other cylinders has occured because of the vaccuum created inside an engine. If you feel you want a completely new vehicle, by all means push for it but how long are you willing to wait for that new vehicle to arrive given allocations? Just some food for thought. I understand all too well the techs taking the time to do the disassembly. Not only is there a learning curve on this but they are also looking for other damage, least the techs in the shop I worked in were doing this. Every part was gone over and things like cracks and such were of note.

OK, little more than 2cents but I empathsize with you and can fully understand your 'pain'. Good luck. Great pics. I do miss this aspect of that job, learning about these types of issues. Always thought it made me a better service writer.

I agree with most of your points except one. The engine in the Redline/GXP is like nothing else GM has produced. Direct injection makes our engine an "oddball". Timing, injectors, ratios, even our ECU is some of the most complicated stuff that GM has had to deal with, so it was assumed there'd be a mistake here or there. But yes, they should've dealt with this situation differently and more efficiently.