Tearin' Down a Red Line (SPIRIT) - Page 3

**Robotech** · 07-11-2007, 02:21 PM

I understand they have other cars to work on...but here's a car with major problems that may or may not be under warranty according to them which they cannot determin, per their own reps, until the heads are off. A camshaft cover on these engines with it in the car like that is probably an hour to an hour and a half job! The intake manifold, maybe 30 minutes even in the car.

I had my local Pontiac dealership do an engine swap for me in the GP a few years back (when I knew next to nothing about working on her) and they had it done in five days! Having done one now I know even that's taking their time as I could do it in a day and a half at home if I had to.

Point is the amount of time they've had this car is excessive even if they were actually fixing it. If the front cover is off that engine it takes all of 2 hours...working at a non-rushed pace...to finish taking the head off.

stonebreaker · 07-11-2007, 03:15 PM

John,

How did you determine that the metal in the intake was steel and not aluminum?

**JohnD** · 07-11-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonebreaker

John,

How did you determine that the metal in the intake was steel and not aluminum?

By weight when holding it. Also by strength. Even the thin parts were very stiff and resistant to bending. It just didn't feel like aluminum. When I asked the mechanic he said it was steel, too, which matched my impression. Maybe it isn't steel, but we all seemed to think it was.

southphillylakes · 07-11-2007, 04:00 PM

have someone use a magnet on the pieces , this could be one of the biggest clue's to what happen.

ChgoBlues · 07-11-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robotech

Point is the amount of time they've had this car is excessive even if they were actually fixing it. If the front cover is off that engine it takes all of 2 hours...working at a non-rushed pace...to finish taking the head off.

Believe me, I'm not at all disputing or disagreeing with you on that. The time to teardown is way out of line. That's why I suggested to John he get Saturn aggressively involved in this to get him back on the road.

MidniteBlues · 07-11-2007, 05:41 PM

Even myself as a novice mechanic would of had the engine into pieces already scattered all over the floor looking at it--That motor should have been pulled out of the car 2 weeks ago--

I don't care how long OR what other work they have to do, my car (if I were John) was there FIRST--get to the bottom of it--I now think that ole sly JohnD is just putting that shlttty dealer on the spot so they cough up a new R/L--I sure as hell would. IN NO WAY, would I take that car back--

JohnD, time to get pissed bro, sugar ain't getting it, time for the hammer man--

grs88v8 · 07-11-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnD

I talked to Saturn Customer Service and opened up a case number. The rep sounded genuinely horrified by my experience.

"You took your car in WHEN? June 18th?! And they STILL don't have it back to you yet? I hope the loaner is to your liking. They didn't offer you a loaner?!? What? Denying your warranty on a shattered cylinder due to a non-GM Air Intake? Are you sure that's what they said? They didn't give it to you in writing? WHAT!?!?! Well, you can expect a call from a regional manager no later than noon tomorrow..."

That was emotionally satisfying at least.

More pictures tomorrow...

Just would like to know, did Saturn ever call you back? If not sounds like to for a call to Saturn HQ. G

**KimberlySky** · 07-11-2007, 07:37 PM

This is soooo beyond horrible. Honestly at this point I would just keep calling SATURN HQ & get someone on the phone that can do something. Ugggg... Hang In There....

**JohnD** · 07-11-2007, 08:02 PM

Lots of pics coming... And, I think I found it. I didn't see it when I was at the shop as there was too much to see and too much to look at while I was there. But when I started going through the pictures here something jumped out at me. So let me lead you down my path of discovery...

First, a shot of a SKY Red Line with a whole lot of spare room in the engine bay...

**JohnD** · 07-11-2007, 08:07 PM

The Cylinder Head was pulled. And you can immediately notice that Cylinder #1 (at the bottom in these pics) is beat up pretty darned bad. You also immediately notice that all four valves are there, and appear to be intact.

**JohnD** · 07-11-2007, 08:10 PM

The top of the piston is equally hammered, but it too is intact.

(Frankly, I was stunned! How could the Piston AND the valve be intact?)

**JohnD** · 07-11-2007, 08:14 PM

So it was back to the Cylinder Head - broken spring? Something else?

The mechanic said that when he pulled the camshaft cover the rocker arm was loose, dislodged, and on its side. You can see that it is not in place in the valve closest to the front (right and bottom in the photos) of the head. The mechanic said that if a valve gets stuck in the "open" position that there is no tension to hold it in place and it can fall out. Like, apparently, my rocker arm did.

**JohnD** · 07-11-2007, 08:16 PM

So, the rocker arm and lifter came out. Are they mangled? No, not really...

**JohnD** · 07-11-2007, 08:21 PM

So if the valves are intact, and the piston is intact... where the HELL did my "metal peas" come from that were found in the intake manifold? They were clearly black on one side and shiny on the other... They had to be part of the engine, didn't they? I mean, any loose debris I would think would be consistently colored all over. But these were clearly black on one side and shiny on the other. See?

And they are steel. The mechanic said that he did the magnet test on them. They had to come from somewhere. But WHERE?

xmicro_Redline · 07-11-2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnD

So if the valves are intact, and the piston is intact... where the HELL did my "metal peas" come from that were found in the intake manifold? They were clearly black on one side and shiny on the other... They had to be part of the engine, didn't they? I mean, any loose debris I would think would be consistently colored all over. But these were clearly black on one side and shiny on the other. See?

And they are steel. The mechanic said that he did the magnet test on them. They had to come from somewhere. But WHERE?

The aftermarket Intercooler pipes??

The Cai????

Come on man your killing me!

**JohnD** · 07-11-2007, 08:25 PM

I drove back to work dealership pondering all of this. Probably not a foreign object if they were black on one side and shiny on the other. Not part of the piston. Not part of the valve. Not injested through the turbo...

Part of a ring? But how did it get above the piston? A chunk of the cylinder wall that is below the top of the piston so I just can't see it? That seems unlikely...

A complete mystery.

Then I started scaling the pictures for posting, and I saw this... Damn - I wish had taken a closer look while I was there. But this looks awfully suspicious and about the right size, too...

Your thoughts?

xmicro_Redline · 07-11-2007, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnD

I drove back to work dealership pondering all of this. Probaly not a foreign object if they were black on one side and shiny on the other. Not part of the piston. Not part of the valve. Not injested through the turbo...

Part of a ring? But how did it get above the piston? I chunk of the cylinder wall that is below the top of the piston so I just can't see it? That seems unlikely...

A complete mystery.

Then I started scaling the pictures for posting, and I saw this... Damn - I wish had taken a closer look while I was there. But this looks awfully suspicious and about the right size, too...

Your thoughts?

There is an indent next to the valve on the opposite side also!?!?

SilverRedLineSky · 07-11-2007, 08:29 PM

Hardened Valve seats pressed in the head, Broke away

07-11-2007, 02:21 PM	#61 (permalink)
Robotech Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2006 Location: Riverside, CA Posts: 1,097 My Photos: (0)	I understand they have other cars to work on...but here's a car with major problems that may or may not be under warranty according to them which they cannot determin, per their own reps, until the heads are off. A camshaft cover on these engines with it in the car like that is probably an hour to an hour and a half job! The intake manifold, maybe 30 minutes even in the car. I had my local Pontiac dealership do an engine swap for me in the GP a few years back (when I knew next to nothing about working on her) and they had it done in five days! Having done one now I know even that's taking their time as I could do it in a day and a half at home if I had to. Point is the amount of time they've had this car is excessive even if they were actually fixing it. If the front cover is off that engine it takes all of 2 hours...working at a non-rushed pace...to finish taking the head off. __________________ V.A.L. Midnight Blue MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car GMPP CAI 16.540 @ 82.096 MPH Sold Other car 97 Grand Prix GTP. 12.07 @ 113.4 MPH As seen on Pinks All Out Las Vegas!

07-11-2007, 04:00 PM	#64 (permalink)
southphillylakes First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 345 My Photos: (0)	have someone use a magnet on the pieces , this could be one of the biggest clue's to what happen. __________________ Southphillylakes Drexel Hill Pa 95 Saturn 2000 Saturn 1976 Corvette Deposit Dec 30 05 Ordered April 1 06 Drove it home May 31 06 VIN 2924 Sunburst Yellow Premium Trim package Chrome Wheels-cancel wheels-to get car 6 Cd LSD Spoiler

07-11-2007, 05:41 PM	#66 (permalink)
MidniteBlues Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 3,586 My Photos: (0)	Even myself as a novice mechanic would of had the engine into pieces already scattered all over the floor looking at it--That motor should have been pulled out of the car 2 weeks ago-- I don't care how long OR what other work they have to do, my car (if I were John) was there FIRST--get to the bottom of it--I now think that ole sly JohnD is just putting that shlttty dealer on the spot so they cough up a new R/L--I sure as hell would. IN NO WAY, would I take that car back-- JohnD, time to get pissed bro, sugar ain't getting it, time for the hammer man-- __________________ 2.4L Midnight Blue, Premium Trim Package, Automatic, Monsoon Pre Audio 1-CD, Std Rear. GMPP CAI, 3M Clear Bra, Splash Guards, Black Top, Fiam Frwy Blastr 2-horn Opel Ant - WR V2 - Flux Capacitor -

07-11-2007, 07:37 PM	#68 (permalink)
KimberlySky Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: "When You Look To The Sky Think Of Me!" Posts: 1,913 My Photos: (11)	This is soooo beyond horrible. Honestly at this point I would just keep calling SATURN HQ & get someone on the phone that can do something. Ugggg... Hang In There.... __________________ *SINISTER* Damaged.... Onyx 3 Peds LSD Spoiler Splash Guards Sky Mats Tint 3rd Brake Sinister Stubby Saddle DC Sports Brace AEM Intake RL Exhaust

07-11-2007, 08:02 PM	#69 (permalink)
JohnD First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,477 My Photos: (73)	UPDATE - Wednesday, July 11th Lots of pics coming... And, I think I found it. I didn't see it when I was at the shop as there was too much to see and too much to look at while I was there. But when I started going through the pictures here something jumped out at me. So let me lead you down my path of discovery... First, a shot of a SKY Red Line with a whole lot of spare room in the engine bay... Attached Thumbnails __________________ First:"BABY"* Silver Pearl 9 May 06* Then:"SPIRIT"* Black Onyx Red Line 25 Oct 06* Check out My Photos!

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07-11-2007, 03:15 PM	#62 (permalink)
stonebreaker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 166 My Photos: (0)	John, How did you determine that the metal in the intake was steel and not aluminum?

07-11-2007, 08:07 PM	#70 (permalink)
JohnD First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,477 My Photos: (73)	The Cylinder Head - Underside The Cylinder Head was pulled. And you can immediately notice that Cylinder #1 (at the bottom in these pics) is beat up pretty darned bad. You also immediately notice that all four valves are there, and appear to be intact. Attached Thumbnails __________________ First:"BABY"* Silver Pearl 9 May 06* Then:"SPIRIT"* Black Onyx Red Line 25 Oct 06* Check out My Photos!

07-11-2007, 08:10 PM	#71 (permalink)
JohnD First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,477 My Photos: (73)	The Piston The top of the piston is equally hammered, but it too is intact. (Frankly, I was stunned! How could the Piston AND the valve be intact?) Attached Thumbnails __________________ First:"BABY"* Silver Pearl 9 May 06* Then:"SPIRIT"* Black Onyx Red Line 25 Oct 06* Check out My Photos!

07-11-2007, 08:14 PM	#72 (permalink)
JohnD First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,477 My Photos: (73)	The Cylinder Head - Topside So it was back to the Cylinder Head - broken spring? Something else? The mechanic said that when he pulled the camshaft cover the rocker arm was loose, dislodged, and on its side. You can see that it is not in place in the valve closest to the front (right and bottom in the photos) of the head. The mechanic said that if a valve gets stuck in the "open" position that there is no tension to hold it in place and it can fall out. Like, apparently, my rocker arm did. Attached Thumbnails __________________ First:"BABY"* Silver Pearl 9 May 06* Then:"SPIRIT"* Black Onyx Red Line 25 Oct 06* Check out My Photos!

07-11-2007, 08:16 PM	#73 (permalink)
JohnD First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,477 My Photos: (73)	So, the rocker arm and lifter came out. Are they mangled? No, not really... Attached Thumbnails __________________ First:"BABY"* Silver Pearl 9 May 06* Then:"SPIRIT"* Black Onyx Red Line 25 Oct 06* Check out My Photos!

07-11-2007, 08:21 PM	#74 (permalink)
JohnD First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,477 My Photos: (73)	So if the valves are intact, and the piston is intact... where the HELL did my "metal peas" come from that were found in the intake manifold? They were clearly black on one side and shiny on the other... They had to be part of the engine, didn't they? I mean, any loose debris I would think would be consistently colored all over. But these were clearly black on one side and shiny on the other. See? And they are steel. The mechanic said that he did the magnet test on them. They had to come from somewhere. But WHERE? Attached Thumbnails __________________ First:"BABY"* Silver Pearl 9 May 06* Then:"SPIRIT"* Black Onyx Red Line 25 Oct 06* Check out My Photos!

07-11-2007, 08:25 PM	#76 (permalink)
JohnD First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,477 My Photos: (73)	I drove back to work dealership pondering all of this. Probably not a foreign object if they were black on one side and shiny on the other. Not part of the piston. Not part of the valve. Not injested through the turbo... Part of a ring? But how did it get above the piston? A chunk of the cylinder wall that is below the top of the piston so I just can't see it? That seems unlikely... A complete mystery. Then I started scaling the pictures for posting, and I saw this... Damn - I wish had taken a closer look while I was there. But this looks awfully suspicious and about the right size, too... Your thoughts? Attached Thumbnails __________________ First:"BABY"* Silver Pearl 9 May 06* Then:"SPIRIT"* Black Onyx Red Line 25 Oct 06* Check out My Photos! Last edited by JohnD : 07-11-2007 at 09:34 PM.

07-11-2007, 08:29 PM	#78 (permalink)
SilverRedLineSky Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Chambersburg, PA Posts: 231 My Photos: (7)	Hardened Valve seats pressed in the head, Broke away __________________ 2007 *Silver Graphite* Redline 2004 Torch Red Corvette Convertible

07-11-2007, 08:29 PM	#79 (permalink)
Valistener Senior Member