Transmission Trouble When is enough going to be enough

[CJsSky]

It is hard to know the best way to start. I have one of the older Skys on the road, but for the mileage, she is still young at only 16K miles. Also, let me make this clear, Saturn of Irving (SOI) has been tremendous in trying to help me through this dilemma. It is the good nature of people that they are that had me waiting this long to post anything on this subject. This has turned into a long rant. I hope that you will read it through. It is my problem right now, but it could happen to you.

At ~15K miles the synchro went out on third gear. The only symptom was that when downshifting, the trans would grind from fourth to third gear. The only way to make it stop was to tap the gas a little.

SOI replaced the trans and the break in period began. As instructed, I babied the car through the first 500 miles. In fact, I babied it another 100 miles for safe measure. From the start,I did not like the way it shifted. It certainly did not feel like the car when she was new. I tried to give it the benefit of the doubt, that perhaps Saturn had done more modifications to the trans. I know that other owners had relayed to me that they were having difficultly shifting from second to third.

The Aisin AR5 manual transmission in our cars is not the original design. In fact, the 2.4 ltr. engine is the smallest engine in size rated for this trans. The AR5 was developed for mid-sized six cylinder engines. GM buys and installs this trans in their Colorado Truck and H3 SUV. The third gear was changed for the higher RPMs in the Solstice/Sky application. In the H3 application, the synchros were changed to carbon from the original copper. In retrospect of my current situation, all these little tweaks have to make you wonder, just how right is the AR5 for our cars?

Trouble:
At 600 miles on the new trans, it locked up going from second to third. Unlike the synchro issue, as soon as I stopped, the trans locked up completely. A tow truck transported my Maria to SOI, and she has been waiting at SOI since the fifth of November waiting for a new trans. This is the part that gets real ridiculous and frustrating. At first, SOI was told that the trans is on its way. Then, out of the blue, I am suddenly on national back order. I find this out when I call the Saturn customer service center. Since then, it’s been nothing but the run around. Sylvia, my Saturn corporate case manager, promises me she is doing everything she can. She tells me she is researching the issue, and she will call to give me an update in 6 days. Funny, but on the sixth day, no call. The person on the phone says their records show that she tried to call. Then this same person reads the phone number. Guess what, she tells me the wrong number. Funny still, Sylvia had called me in the first place to make the initial contact. Guess she just dialed wrong, but she refused to accept responsibility, even when I explained the wrong number given to me the night before. The research that she undertook was e-mailing her parts person and contacting SOI. She was unable to come up with a best hope for a replacement trans. She had no clue why they were on back order. Given her complete lack of knowledge, I make it clear I wanted to speak to her boss. 10 more minutes of BS and refusal to give me the information I requested, then I am told that the next level up is a territory manager, and that they do not take calls. They only take messages, and call back at their convenience. As of today, three weeks later, they are sending a GM rep to look at my car, and this is supposed to do what??????????exactly.

One could speculate many possible reasons for this direction Saturn is heading. Given the modifications to the new trans, the crappy feeling of the new trans compared to the original, knowing that I am not the only person to have had trouble shifting, also, I nearly forgot, SOI told me during the first couple days of waiting, that other dealers were waiting for AR5 as well. It seems that there is something amiss with this trans.

Other factors:
Sales are down, dealerships have Solstices and Skys just sitting around.
The application is custom, I should not be competing with the truck version, or was the new trans the truck version???????????
I believe Aisin recently opened a new plant. Are there issues at the new or old plant??????????

The part I find the most crazy, is that a manual trans actually broke. I have owned 5 other cars with manual trans. I grew up with six more manual trans cars between my father and brothers. I have had many friends with manual trans cars. All this does not include 5 motorcycles. None of these trans ever broke. We changed a few clutches but never a trans. There is just something wrong here.

If you have a manual trans, and have had shifting issues, then please chime in. I truly believe there is a problem, and GM needs to know just how big it is. If you managed you read this all the way through, then bless you. Also, thanks to Saturn of Irving, hopefully GM will make this write.

[ChiliSky]

I have an automatic and have not had any problems, just wanted you to know that yes I read through your whole statement and wanted to show some support. I know it is hard to deal with but hopefully all these problems will be cleared up or GM will finally have a data base with all the answers and the wait will be minimal. I am just waiting for body panels, that alone is taking weeks, so I kinda feel some of your pain.

[cerberus]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing that. First I've heard of tranmission problems. What pops to mind is that with small production numbers it doesn't take much for backorder disruptions to come and go on various parts. Don't want to take away anything from the possibilty of wider problems, but hard to tell really. I'd suspect that as we're talking about something certainly rarer than diff problems, your trans issues may tumble up through the support chain and take a bit more time and effort as it goes through the process. These things are looked into, as that's where fixes and bulletins can come from. Hang in there and keep us posted with progress, or lack of progress. You may need some patience here. The Solstice has a good jump on us in time so with more time and many more cars out there, I'd think we'd have heard of this if it were a common thing. Just thinking out loud there.

Aisin AR5 (MA5) changelog.

Ratio For 3rd Gear Higher For Pontiac Solstice And Saturn Sky
1st And 3rd Gears Strengthened With Shot Peening Process
Clutch Made Larger For Hummer H3 Application
2nd And 3rd Gear Synchronizers Changed To Carbon On H3 Application


FULL DESCRIPTIONS OF NEW OR CHANGED FEATURES

RATIO FOR 3RD GEAR HIGHER FOR PONTIAC SOLSTICE AND SATURN SKY
The ratio for 3rd gear on both roadsters was made "shorter", or higher, to allow higher engine rpm for better performance in 3rd gear and bring it closer to 2nd gear. This change is not applied to the compact pickup trucks, Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon.

1ST AND 3RD GEARS STRENGTHENED WITH SHOT PEENING PROCESS
The 1st and 3rd gearsets on the Solstice and Sky, and the Hummer H3, are strengthened by a shot peening process during gear manufacturing. The increase in torque from the new high-performance 2.0L I4 turbocharged engine in the Solstice GXP
and the Sky Red Line, as well as in the new 3.7L I5 in the H3 required the stronger gears.

CLUTCH MADE LARGER FOR HUMMER H3 APPLICATION
To handle the increased power and torque from the new 3.7L I5 in the Hummer H3,
the clutch was increased in diameter from 265mm to 280mm.

2ND AND 3RD GEAR SYNCHRONIZERS CHANGED TO CARBON ON H3 APPLICATION
The friction material on the synchronizers for the 2nd and 3rd gear blocker rings are changed from brass to carbon, which is a more durable and heat-resistant material. This allows the transmission to handle the increased torque of the new
3.7L I5 in the H3.

[SkyRunner]

I wanted to stop in and say i have a 2008 Sky and i havn't had any problems with the Trans yet ( crosses fingers). But i did speak with a GM survey guy for engineers (so he said) and told him how crappy the Manual Trans was and i keep getting this Grinding feeling every time i shift. Its not a clutch grind but more of a i'm scrapping something every time i shift grind. I have been driving manuals for 20 years now and never heard of a Trans breaking like what you have described. He asked me to report exactly what i was doing when i shifted and what i was feeling and hearing at the time.

I love my Sky but the trans. is one of the worst i have ever driven. I really can't believe they couldn't put a nice 6 speed or even paddle shifters for what we paid for the car.

I hope you get yours resovled.

[Rick Tinley Park]

I'm at 12000 miles -- no manual trans problems. One of the smoothest shifting trans I have driven...

[Rob the Elder]

My new F-150 lost the syncro between 2-3rd @ 1500 miles. It was an intermittent problem. I took it to the dealer and "could not reproduce" it was returned. Same problem. I took the service manager for a ride, he drove. He replicated the problem immediately and repeatedly. Was promised that they would pull the tranny and their in house transmission mechanic would have it fixed in a day. Waited three and called. "your transmission had a DO NOT REPAIR engineering tag on it so we had to send it to the factory and order a new one." Week later got the truck with the brand spanking new tranney. Within 1000 miles it was doing the same thing. I learned to live with it. If I did not hurry shifts but waited a half a second longer it never had a problem. For 120,000 more miles.

My 07 Sol goes in and out of 1st smooth as butter. When cold - first 15 miles or so on a 30 degree ambient day - it absolutely refuses to down shift from 4th to 3rd or 3rd to 2nd. If I drive 15 miles it warms up and works very nicely. I personally really like the nice solid feel of the transmission. I like the ergonomics and the short shift pattern. Until I get a couple thousand miles on it I will not be doing any speed shifting or power shifting but it is noticably wearing in to my shifting style. I just dont ask it to do more than its willing to give me.

The 08 Sky is driven daily by my dainty wife of 40 years and she loves her 5 speed as well. No complaints at all. She does complain about the Jeep if its a cold night and she has to drive it to work due to snow. The GO90 in the cases and the transmission fluid get like concrete and it is a total bitch to drive.

In any complex mechanism like the transmission there will be some number of items that have problems. But the vast majority I believe are performing as designed.

One of the reasons that you may behaving problems getting a replacement transmission is the sparing analysis done by the factory for the Sky. The engineering team does a failure analysis and decides on what ratio of which parts should be stocked based on the predicted failure rate. If they missed the failure analysis for the transmission then they did not order enough early enough to satisfy the need. It does not mean that there is any endemic problem with the design, it may just mean that they are having a few more failures early in the life cycle than their analysis suggested.

Personally I would much rather have a bigger, tougher transmission that will take the load over the long run than have something smaller and perhaps more user friendly but that will fail when you hit it with 150HP when you sidestep the clutch going into second gear to see how much rubber you can lay. Not that I have ever done that in my GTO, Mustang GTs, Dodge Chargers, . . .

[Texas Red Line]

Read the whole thing. I don't have a answer for you either. I do feel your pain, however.

The one thing I found in my business dealings with the big three or four auto manufacturers is that there Customer Relationship Management is the worst of any industry that deals directly with the public. I don't get the impression that they care either. It would be a competitive advantage if one of them would just step up and improve this piece of there customer engagement model.

Hang in there and think TMS in the summer. Surely it will be fixed by then.

[Bogie]

Sorry to hear about these troubles. I can understand the frustration of having a car sitting in shop...waiting....for a month

I can't help much on that side, but I did read your post...TWICE! I do have a few comments on the personal side:

...but she refused to accept responsibility, even when I explained the wrong number given to me the night before.

I understand the frustration, and perhaps it would be nice for folks to accept responsibility, but if you've reached the point you feel the need to make this point in your argument, you might want to take a step back and breathe a bit. You want this rep feeling good talking with you...you want her on your side....once CS goes CYA you're SOL (I just made that up ).

As of today, three weeks later, they are sending a GM rep to look at my car, and this is supposed to do what??????????exactly.

Wait, you've got PERSONAL attention. Get his/her name. Find out when they'll be there. Meet them. Get to know them. Take 'em out to lunch. Ask 'em some nice leading questions...nicely.

You are at a unique stage in a vehicle repair history. Two failures on a low production car with, apparently, limited replacement supply. PEOPLE are your best way to solve this quickly. You want everyone on your side. You've already got SOI on your side, as it sounds. Now just keep Sylvia there...and now this GM rep. They, or someone they know, are a phone call away from a Transmission sitting in SOI's bay ready for installation. Find that button...make 'em feel good about themselves...and voila....you're back on the road. Hell, do it well enough, and SOI might invite you to their Christmas party.

[TulsaSky]

At 10,150 miles I have the clunk but not all the time, no grinding and so far no pinion/seal drip. No problems shifting all seems smooth when foot is synchronized with release of clutch/gas and shifting hand. It is odd how some days it clunks and other days nothing, this morning it was cold 32 degrees and all was quiet, but last Tuesday afternoon temperature of 75 degrees it wanted to chatter. Others have commented on here that when its cold they hear more clunk and chatter, go figure
I would wonder if the one replaced was not installed correctly? Like your commented most manual tyranny's will not lock up unless it has gears that are binding not meshing. Again that would take someone stepping up and taking responsibility for messing up on the install. Seems the dealer, Saturn, GM are all pointing fingers and no one has a new tyranny to install. But you do want good service so keep your cool, you are the customer and the customer is always right, they will have to resolve this by fixing yours or getting you a new sky, its one or the other

TulsaSky

[TulsaSky]

Originally Posted by Rob the Elder

My new F-150 lost the syncro between 2-3rd @ 1500 miles. It was an intermittent problem. I took it to the dealer and "could not reproduce" it was returned. Same problem. I took the service manager for a ride, he drove. He replicated the problem immediately and repeatedly. Was promised that they would pull the tranny and their in house transmission mechanic would have it fixed in a day. Waited three and called. "your transmission had a DO NOT REPAIR engineering tag on it so we had to send it to the factory and order a new one." Week later got the truck with the brand spanking new tranney. Within 1000 miles it was doing the same thing. I learned to live with it. If I did not hurry shifts but waited a half a second longer it never had a problem. For 120,000 more miles.
. . .

The rumor mill here at one point said that if your new Sky had a orange X on the differential that when it went bad they are to send it back for research. My Sky was built the 2nd week of October after the plant shut down and was possibly a test car and yes I saw it with my own eyes a big orange X on my differential. I guess maybe the engineers tweaked and blessed my car for knock on wood only a blown turbo seal and my request for the hotter plugs that has been all of my problems.

TulsaSky

[CJsSky]

My car has been down for 22 days now. No rep showed to look at my car. All they wanted was the original tranny. Seems thay could care less about the new one. All that was wrong with the original was the third gear synchros. According to the dealer, there are more than one other dealership waiting on a trans. Given the difference in the shifting between the old and the new, I suspect they already know what is wrong with the new tranny. They seem to want to know what went wrong with the old one.

SkyRunner - You are describing exactly what I felt with the new tranny.

Bogie - So much for personal attention. No rep, just a smoke screen.


This is kind of reminiscent of JohnD and his engine issue.


I work for a company that build circuits for some auto MFG's. We are continuously pressed by the MFG's for zero defects, and for good reason. I, like many of my coworkers, do not want to see some mother with children broken down on the side of the road.

Well this time I am the customer, not the supplier. GM needs to get off their backside an resolve this issue.


The solstice and Sky may be first run cars and I can put up with some of the woes of that. I have have the preverbal leaking diff. I have had a strut fail. The wheel well fell off the front bumper. The trim around the stick fell into the retainer. The mug holder fell off. All small failures in design. In all of this I have taken in stride and tried to support this car. However, I cannot and will not support a car maker that does not put forth the same effort.

As the saying goes, It takes 200 ataboys to move up in this world, and one all shuks to take it all away.

[Mandi]

It sucks when parts go on backorder.........but calling whomever isn't going to make parts appaear any faster. Just let the system get itself worked out.......and barter free oil changes for good CSI.

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Mandi

It sucks when parts go on backorder.........but calling whomever isn't going to make parts appaear any faster.

To hell it won't. Unless the entire frikin trans assembly line is shut down (which I doubt), they are still rolling off and being shipped in support of whichever high volume line is using them, as well as any low volume line (aka the Kappas). It's backorder because supply isn't keeping up with PRODUCTION demand or someone isn't on top of parts inventory. Parts for repair take a backseat to new production.

Believe me, there is someone at some point in the GM chain of command that could have that part delivered...pronto. If you can find that button....and push it....yeah, calling "whomever" can make parts appear faster.

[Celt03]

Originally Posted by Bogie

To hell it won't. Unless the entire frikin trans assembly line is shut down (which I doubt), they are still rolling off and being shipped in support of whichever high volume line is using them, as well as any low volume line (aka the Kappas). It's backorder because supply isn't keeping up with PRODUCTION demand or someone isn't on top of parts inventory. Parts for repair take a backseat to new production.

Believe me, there is someone at some point in the GM chain of command that could have that part delivered...pronto. If you can find that button....and push it....yeah, calling "whomever" can make parts appear faster.

done been there and done that (with a different GM car) and you are VERY right

[cerberus]

Originally Posted by Bogie

To hell it won't. Unless the entire frikin trans assembly line is shut down (which I doubt), they are still rolling off and being shipped in support of whichever high volume line is using them, as well as any low volume line (aka the Kappas). It's backorder because supply isn't keeping up with PRODUCTION demand or someone isn't on top of parts inventory. Parts for repair take a backseat to new production.

Believe me, there is someone at some point in the GM chain of command that could have that part delivered...pronto. If you can find that button....and push it....yeah, calling "whomever" can make parts appear faster.

Hmm. But from the application specific engineering changes, aren't we talking about different part numbers and different units altogether? Doesn't look like you can pull one of the H3, Colorado, or Canyon lines, and I'd think the trans production and pipeline would reflect the various versions' volume.

[plausibledenial]

I read the whole thing and you know you have my sympathy for what's happened to Maria. I was really hoping that it would be a relatively painless to get fixed since they had already replaced it once before and the circumstances surrounding the install of this one. It feels like they're really dropping the ball here, especially when a rep was promised and none showed.

The Kappas are amazing little cars, no doubting that, but if it's going to be plagued by issues across the line and GM isn't going do much to try and fix it - that doesn't seem like it'll bode too well for us. It's not like they offered first-year buyers a price discount.

Unfortunately I don't have any answers either, but I've mentioned before that I'm unhappy with my manual transmission as well, particularly into third gear. It's already been in once for issues with shifting, no resolution. And for what little it'll help, if you need a sky fix, you're welcome to drive the beastlet. I know it's not the same though.

[CJsSky]

23 days and the count continues. Interesting note today. I am told a GM rep showed at the dealership today. Provided a new part number and low and behold they have six trannies in stock. It is said that it will arrive Thursday. I'm not holding my breath. It is very interesting that there is another part number. Wonder what flavor this trans is??????????

Leeann,

Careful putting me behind the reigns of the beastlet. I'm liable to not give him back.