Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D [merged]

larry4pyro · 09-01-2008, 07:05 PM

Looks like the current generation of Skys and Solstice will not be continued...

GMI Exclusive: Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D - GM Inside News Forum

RMFNSKY · 09-01-2008, 08:02 PM

Like one poster said Kappa owners should be glad because thier cars will become collector items

**EndiSky** · 09-01-2008, 08:11 PM

Still reading through it, but they are saying that each Kappa loses GM $10,000 PER CAR. With 100,000 Kappas out there that would mean that GM has LOST $10 BIIILLLIIION.

I call Shenanigens.

MidniteBlues · 09-01-2008, 08:37 PM

We will see what shakes out. Many of us have been speculating about the Kappas future since I have been here. The truth will be known once the Delaware plant closes, which I believe was suppose to be in 2012? right? However I think this 10K number is a bunch of huiee.. and I believe a number some dick head plucked from the Sky..What was funny was that other dlck head jacking up that crappy shoe the miata as a better car....

Well, IF this car passes, which I hope it does not (I was looking forward for a monsoon radio you could actually see the dial)..

I guess when I get tired of the Sky, I'll buy me a new Z5 (or Z6) Roadster from BMW..

I sure would like to get some confirmation from GM about this information, cause IF true, I just can't see buying a replacement for my current Sky this year, and has certainly given me pause at the moment..

... if true.. I already have basically another dead product I think, altho still being produced, (I'm sure in much lower numbers..my H2..)..

& we know they want out of those vehicles, and we know about the Delaware plant in 2012.. Not good, why then should I even consider ANY GM product if they keep killing them off? Like say the interest I have in their new Volt..

And then they killed off the Camaro, altho they saw the light and supposedly are bringing it back..for how long? Not good business IMHO to make products 4-5 years then discontinue them...Why? parts, or lack thereof, especially with our platform and all its flaws..that dude also seems to be 100% certain the Solstice is dead, but yet doesn't say shlt about the Sky..I'm sure our Solstice brethren can't be happy about hearing that crap..

cerberus · 09-01-2008, 08:46 PM

Yeah, that 10,000 number sounds strange. Total cost for the program spread against profit per unit produced? Still feels iffy. Keep in mind that the article the link references is about Kappa II the supposed replacement for Kappa after the DE contract runs out. In the current economic environment lots can change back and forth very quickly. Hold K2 yet extend DE or K1? Let the contract run out with no replacement? Other? Looong way from here to there. Nothing's impossible. Perhaps in the coming days more will emerge regarding this rumor of the Kappa II platform.

**Celt03** · 09-01-2008, 08:51 PM

hmmm . . . That outfit is a crap shoot - seems that they are wrong just as often as they are right.

Right now whether the Kappas continue on is anybody's guess.
But that is true for the majority of models on the market right now

But I do have to say that the $10k sounds way out of line.

**G8TR** · 09-01-2008, 09:34 PM

Interesting numbers off this thread about production.

Re: GMI Exclusive: Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D
Here are production numbers since Wilmington started building Solstice in July 05.
By the end of 2005, 9382 Solstices were built, at an annual rate of less than 19,000 but we have to consider a 2-month ramp-up period.
In 2006, they produced 34443 Kappas
In 2007, they produced 42872 Kappas
The demand dropped off in 2008, by the end of July, only 13506 Kappas have been built, an annual rate of 23153.

Adding up production numbers to date, there are over 100,000 Kappas on the road, 7300 of them in Europe.

WishfulThinking · 09-01-2008, 09:45 PM

Don't I remember a quote somewhere that said an upcoming platform could (in theory) be shrunk to take the place of Kappa? Alpha?

belletire · 09-02-2008, 12:19 AM

It is no secret by now that General Motors has been shaking up its product programs left and right. We first heard of the slashing of the Buick Zeta car, apparent death of the Cadillac Zeta car, and the impending death of a couple GMC product programs. Now GMI is hearing that the Kappa II program, successor to the current lineup of Kappa roadsters, has been pulled from the product plans...........

GMI Exclusive: Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D - GM Inside News Forum

Bogie · 09-02-2008, 08:48 AM

Good read.

I'm skeptical of the reasons, especially the $10000 lost per car. I don't now if kappa made money or lost money for GM, but either way....considering the small volume....it wouldn't do much for GMs bottom line, good or bad.

The article also talks about the more expensive tooling as part of the problem. Tooling isn't just about how much the tool costs, but how much the tool cost PER VEHICLE produced. Yes, hydroform tooling costs more per vehicle than GMs other manufacturing processes, but that's only half the story. If they had used the so called less expensive technology, it would have been even more expensive per vehicle because the less expensive tooling is more expensive than the niche tooling....for a small run.

The issue on kappaII isn't the CURRENT kappa, but the re-tooling for the new kappa. At some point the tooling reaches end of life. To continue a line when tooling runs down, you have to re-tool.

GM has to make tooling decisions several years in advance. As I understand it, when the tooling runs out, Wilmington is closing down. Where do they go to build the kappa, and what new tooling is required at that other place. I've heard rumor of Bowling Green (with the Vettes). But Kappa can't run on the Vette base architecture. So what to do? GM isn't doing well at the moment. I doubt re-tooling for a low rate production vehicle is top on the priority list. Doesn't mean they're giving up. I think it just means they aren't devoting resources to it.

Maybe we will have a collectors item. Two edged sword. Unique...YES. Part? Expensive....very expensive.

**Jonnyredline** · 09-02-2008, 10:35 AM

I saw the same thing on Autoblog today.

Rumormill: GM kills the Kappa II platform - Autoblog

WishfulThinking · 09-02-2008, 10:51 AM

At the risk of repeating myself (and now that the two have merged, really repeating myself), wasn't there an article discussed here at one time that talked about another platform that could be shortened to address the Kappa cars, where the Kappa structure couldn't be lengthened to address the other need? I think it was Alpha. Just because there isn't going to be a Kappa II doesn't necessarily mean the cars are dead. They could live on as another platform.(?)

MidniteBlues · 09-02-2008, 10:58 AM

http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/f8...xed-r-d-26604/

Bogie · 09-02-2008, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishfulThinking

At the risk of repeating myself, wasn't there an article discussed here at one time that talked about another platform that could be shortened to address the Kappa cars, where the Kappa structure couldn't be lengthened to address the other need? I think it was Alpha. Just because there isn't going to be a Kappa II doesn't necessarily mean the cars are dead. They could live on as another platform.(?)

Yes. This is what manufacturers try to do all the time. Find an existing architecture on which to spinoff new designs. They tried to do this with the Solstice, but they couldn't find another architecture to make it work.

The problem is a roadster requires a somewhat unique design (short wheel base and rigidity). The Vette is rigid, but too long. An existing platform won't have the rigidity. The latter can be modified by strengthening the structure, and making the body panels stronger, but then you start running into weight, balance, and design flexibility tradeoffs. Remember, we have both the Solstice and SKY because the kappa foundation allows flexibility in the wrapper, because the base is so rigid. When you put the rigidity in the wrapper, you lose flexibility (pun not intended) in the wrapper.

**G8TR** · 09-02-2008, 12:14 PM

Makes me want to run down to the dealer, buy another and put it in storage for a while. Thought about doing that prior to the announcement, may have to do it for real now.

JRinKY · 09-02-2008, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Bogie : ...... Maybe we will have a collectors item. Two edged sword. Unique...YES. Part? Expensive....very expensive.

The production or cancellation of Kappa II would probably not have much effect on parts availability for Kappa I. Typically a platform change also involves change to all of the ancillary parts as well, so all of the unique parts would still be out of production.

Of course, nothing that I have read has ruled out the possibility that production of Kappa I will be extended.

OKC08SKYR/L · 09-02-2008, 02:32 PM

It is my understanding that the next-gen Kappas were being moved over to a shortened version Alpha platform.

cerberus · 09-02-2008, 02:36 PM

To keep discusion on this topic in one place, we're merging the two threads together.

xmicro_Redline · 09-02-2008, 02:46 PM

It says "GM was losing around $10,000 per unit built". What is the measure of the UNIT?? 1 car or a group of cars?

I sayed it back in 06, this car will be worth something some day, and I caught some heat. That is it, back in the garage, now I will get a Camaro to fill in the gaps!

Here is my original thread:
Who Feels the Sky will be worth something down the road?

No back peddling you non-believers!!

WishfulThinking · 09-02-2008, 02:54 PM

The $10,000 figure is interesting. Think of all the "wish it had this" comments that have been made over the past few years. One typical reply was always, "but it would cost $40K if they did that". Now we find out it really is a $40K car in the first place.(?)

**SKYMAN-CT** · 09-02-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmicro_Redline

It says "GM was losing around $10,000 per unit built". What is the measure of the UNIT?? 1 car or a group of cars?

I sayed it back in 06, this car will be worth something some day, and I caught some heat. That is it, back in the garage, now I will get a Camaro to fill in the gaps!

Here is my original thread:
Who Feels the Sky will be worth something down the road?

No back peddling you non-believers!!

You going to have it in time for the Hudson Valley Run?

09-01-2008, 07:05 PM	#1 (permalink)
larry4pyro Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Carlsbad, California Posts: 140 My Photos: (0)	Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D [merged] Looks like the current generation of Skys and Solstice will not be continued... GMI Exclusive: Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D - GM Inside News Forum

09-01-2008, 08:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
RMFNSKY First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: St Louis Posts: 1,757 My Photos: (23)	Like one poster said Kappa owners should be glad because thier cars will become collector items __________________ Sunburst Yellow Ordered 4/5/06 Born 7/6/06 In my Driveway 8/16/06 VIN 6510

09-01-2008, 08:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
MidniteBlues Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 3,551 My Photos: (0)	We will see what shakes out. Many of us have been speculating about the Kappas future since I have been here. The truth will be known once the Delaware plant closes, which I believe was suppose to be in 2012? right? However I think this 10K number is a bunch of huiee.. and I believe a number some dick head plucked from the Sky..What was funny was that other dlck head jacking up that crappy shoe the miata as a better car.... Well, IF this car passes, which I hope it does not (I was looking forward for a monsoon radio you could actually see the dial).. I guess when I get tired of the Sky, I'll buy me a new Z5 (or Z6) Roadster from BMW.. I sure would like to get some confirmation from GM about this information, cause IF true, I just can't see buying a replacement for my current Sky this year, and has certainly given me pause at the moment..... if true.. I already have basically another dead product I think, altho still being produced, (I'm sure in much lower numbers..my H2..).. & we know they want out of those vehicles, and we know about the Delaware plant in 2012.. Not good, why then should I even consider ANY GM product if they keep killing them off? Like say the interest I have in their new Volt.. And then they killed off the Camaro, altho they saw the light and supposedly are bringing it back..for how long? Not good business IMHO to make products 4-5 years then discontinue them...Why? parts, or lack thereof, especially with our platform and all its flaws..that dude also seems to be 100% certain the Solstice is dead, but yet doesn't say shlt about the Sky..I'm sure our Solstice brethren can't be happy about hearing that crap.. __________________ 2.4L Midnight Blue, Premium Trim Package, Automatic, Monsoon Pre Audio 1-CD, Std Rear. GMPP CAI, 3M Clear Bra, Splash Guards, Black Top, Fiam Frwy Blastr 2-horn Opel Ant - WR V2 Last edited by MidniteBlues : 09-01-2008 at 08:46 PM.

09-01-2008, 08:46 PM	#5 (permalink)
cerberus Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,381 My Photos: (19)	Yeah, that 10,000 number sounds strange. Total cost for the program spread against profit per unit produced? Still feels iffy. Keep in mind that the article the link references is about Kappa II the supposed replacement for Kappa after the DE contract runs out. In the current economic environment lots can change back and forth very quickly. Hold K2 yet extend DE or K1? Let the contract run out with no replacement? Other? Looong way from here to there. Nothing's impossible. Perhaps in the coming days more will emerge regarding this rumor of the Kappa II platform. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pontiac builds excitement... Saturn has rethought it's image... The time has come for the enthusiasts... NASSOA Officially Recognized by GM More Info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

09-01-2008, 08:51 PM	#6 (permalink)
Celt03 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,554 My Photos: (6)	hmmm . . . That outfit is a crap shoot - seems that they are wrong just as often as they are right. Right now whether the Kappas continue on is anybody's guess. But that is true for the majority of models on the market right now But I do have to say that the $10k sounds way out of line. __________________ "Saffyre" 2008 Midnight Blue RL/Black/Black Leather / 5-spd w/Spoiler Magnaflow 3" Quad tip / Chrome Wheels / On Star / 6 CD XM Monsoon / Splash Guards / GT Antenna / WindRestrictor V2 www.imsaturn.com/profile/Celt

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09-01-2008, 08:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
EndiSky Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SoCal Posts: 500 My Photos: (0)	Still reading through it, but they are saying that each Kappa loses GM $10,000 PER CAR. With 100,000 Kappas out there that would mean that GM has LOST $10 BIIILLLIIION. I call Shenanigens.

09-01-2008, 09:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
G8TR Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 786 My Photos: (3)	Interesting numbers off this thread about production. Re: GMI Exclusive: Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D Here are production numbers since Wilmington started building Solstice in July 05. By the end of 2005, 9382 Solstices were built, at an annual rate of less than 19,000 but we have to consider a 2-month ramp-up period. In 2006, they produced 34443 Kappas In 2007, they produced 42872 Kappas The demand dropped off in 2008, by the end of July, only 13506 Kappas have been built, an annual rate of 23153. Adding up production numbers to date, there are over 100,000 Kappas on the road, 7300 of them in Europe. __________________ Life is happenstance, coincidence and what you do to make a difference. Make the best of what you have, work for more and hope for health.

09-01-2008, 09:45 PM	#8 (permalink)
WishfulThinking First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 210 My Photos: (0)	Don't I remember a quote somewhere that said an upcoming platform could (in theory) be shrunk to take the place of Kappa? Alpha?

09-02-2008, 12:19 AM	#9 (permalink)
belletire First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Clair Shores, Michigan Posts: 304 My Photos: (3)	Sky, Solstice and Opel GT left for dead It is no secret by now that General Motors has been shaking up its product programs left and right. We first heard of the slashing of the Buick Zeta car, apparent death of the Cadillac Zeta car, and the impending death of a couple GMC product programs. Now GMI is hearing that the Kappa II program, successor to the current lineup of Kappa roadsters, has been pulled from the product plans........... GMI Exclusive: Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D - GM Inside News Forum __________________ Prius suck! Have you keyed a Toyota lately?

09-02-2008, 08:48 AM	#10 (permalink)
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Northern, VA Posts: 2,428 My Photos: (0)	Good read. I'm skeptical of the reasons, especially the $10000 lost per car. I don't now if kappa made money or lost money for GM, but either way....considering the small volume....it wouldn't do much for GMs bottom line, good or bad. The article also talks about the more expensive tooling as part of the problem. Tooling isn't just about how much the tool costs, but how much the tool cost PER VEHICLE produced. Yes, hydroform tooling costs more per vehicle than GMs other manufacturing processes, but that's only half the story. If they had used the so called less expensive technology, it would have been even more expensive per vehicle because the less expensive tooling is more expensive than the niche tooling....for a small run. The issue on kappaII isn't the CURRENT kappa, but the re-tooling for the new kappa. At some point the tooling reaches end of life. To continue a line when tooling runs down, you have to re-tool. GM has to make tooling decisions several years in advance. As I understand it, when the tooling runs out, Wilmington is closing down. Where do they go to build the kappa, and what new tooling is required at that other place. I've heard rumor of Bowling Green (with the Vettes). But Kappa can't run on the Vette base architecture. So what to do? GM isn't doing well at the moment. I doubt re-tooling for a low rate production vehicle is top on the priority list. Doesn't mean they're giving up. I think it just means they aren't devoting resources to it. Maybe we will have a collectors item. Two edged sword. Unique...YES. Part? Expensive....very expensive. __________________ 2008 Redline Black Onyx Black/Red Leather Monsoon 6 Disc Spoiler French Transmission Born July 2007 Snagged 8/31/07 Belle? That's my car Alizée? That's my avatar Me? Forty something male skydriver

09-02-2008, 10:35 AM	#11 (permalink)
Jonnyredline Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 32 My Photos: (0)	I saw the same thing on Autoblog today. Rumormill: GM kills the Kappa II platform - Autoblog __________________ "I Drive Way Too Fast To Worry About Cholesterol" 2008 Chilli Pepper Red Sky R/L Black Top Black Leather Interior Monsoon System w/6 Disc Chrome Rims Spoiler RPI GT Exhaust Fujita CAI & ICP Lil' Chromies Stubby Antennae

09-02-2008, 10:51 AM	#12 (permalink)
WishfulThinking First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 210 My Photos: (0)	At the risk of repeating myself (and now that the two have merged, really repeating myself), wasn't there an article discussed here at one time that talked about another platform that could be shortened to address the Kappa cars, where the Kappa structure couldn't be lengthened to address the other need? I think it was Alpha. Just because there isn't going to be a Kappa II doesn't necessarily mean the cars are dead. They could live on as another platform.(?) Last edited by WishfulThinking : 09-02-2008 at 05:57 PM.

09-02-2008, 10:58 AM	#13 (permalink)
MidniteBlues Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 3,551 My Photos: (0)	Already Posted Yesterday http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/f8...xed-r-d-26604/ __________________ 2.4L Midnight Blue, Premium Trim Package, Automatic, Monsoon Pre Audio 1-CD, Std Rear. GMPP CAI, 3M Clear Bra, Splash Guards, Black Top, Fiam Frwy Blastr 2-horn Opel Ant - WR V2

09-02-2008, 12:14 PM	#15 (permalink)
G8TR Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 786 My Photos: (3)	Makes me want to run down to the dealer, buy another and put it in storage for a while. Thought about doing that prior to the announcement, may have to do it for real now. __________________ Life is happenstance, coincidence and what you do to make a difference. Make the best of what you have, work for more and hope for health.

09-02-2008, 02:32 PM	#17 (permalink)
OKC08SKYR/L Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 46 My Photos: (0)	It is my understanding that the next-gen Kappas were being moved over to a shortened version Alpha platform. __________________ 2008 Sky Redline - Silver Pearl - Chrome Wheels - Monsoon - Spoiler - Auto Trans - 01/19/08 2005 Crossfire SRT-6 (Sold) 2003 Mustang Cobra (Sold) 2001 WS6 Trans-Am (Sold)

09-02-2008, 02:36 PM	#18 (permalink)
cerberus Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,381 My Photos: (19)	To keep discusion on this topic in one place, we're merging the two threads together. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pontiac builds excitement... Saturn has rethought it's image... The time has come for the enthusiasts... NASSOA Officially Recognized by GM More Info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

09-02-2008, 02:46 PM	#19 (permalink)
xmicro_Redline Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New York Posts: 4,449 My Photos: (1)	It says "GM was losing around $10,000 per unit built". What is the measure of the UNIT?? 1 car or a group of cars? I sayed it back in 06, this car will be worth something some day, and I caught some heat. That is it, back in the garage, now I will get a Camaro to fill in the gaps! Here is my original thread: Who Feels the Sky will be worth something down the road? No back peddling you non-believers!!

09-02-2008, 02:54 PM	#20 (permalink)
WishfulThinking First 2000 Sr. Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 210 My Photos: (0)	The $10,000 figure is interesting. Think of all the "wish it had this" comments that have been made over the past few years. One typical reply was always, "but it would cost $40K if they did that". Now we find out it really is a $40K car in the first place.(?)