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Do I dare try to add another 50hp?

5K views 23 replies 10 participants last post by  BlueRL 
#1 ·
Like many of you I've had faster cars and spent the coin to fix them when the mods went boom, so I've been a little reluctant to do anymore then I currently have (trifecta budget tune, solo hf cat, solo Mach exhaust, ddm charge pipes, k&n drop in filter).
Wondering what might be needed to get another 50 ponies or so without messing with the drivability or dependability?

Is there a slightly better bolt on ic or turbo, or just a rebuild of the stock turbo for a little more power without introducing anymore lag?
Car has 130,000 miles on it currently so maybe those things need a freshen up anyway? Would that then require more tuning to make it all work? (Can't find the dang red cable) 375-400 BHP seems would be about right. I live at 6500' elevation so I could use just a bit more umph.
 
#2 ·
You can get there with a modified stock turbo - they install a larger impeller for more volume and there is no significant penalty in terms of lag. You can get into the 360-375 bhp area and that's about it for a set up based on the stock turbo. It would require a custom logged tune (Trifecta can do that for you).

If you want 400 bhp or more, you are looking at changing turbos. Lots of threads on all this if you search.

No need to change anything else you have to accommodate the added power.
 
#4 ·
That many miles, making more power normally is not recommended.

I think the best answer is the big wheel that Bill suggested. I have tried for awhile to get the bigger turbo to work properly, without codes, and soot all over the car. I have finally given up.

If you have the ability to do all the work and are willing to deal with the car being undependable, by all means modify away. Just not worth the nightmare as far as I am concerned
 
#5 ·
If you can adjust the boost, you can get an AM IC and you might be able to get another 30hp or so....
 
#6 ·
Am I wrong on it being a lot of miles to adding significant horsepower to.

Toyota came out with a Turbo for my 2007 FJ. One of the guidelines, if over 60K they did not recommend doing, and would not be done by the dealership. Toyota's are nearly bullet proof, I have over 177K on mine and it still runs like new.

I would be very worried about the bottom end with that many miles.
 
#7 ·
There is at least one member (here or at Solsticeforum) that supercharged his 2.4 at 100k without any reported problems.
What a dealership will and won't do, and what a manufacturer will or won't recommend, is rooted more in probability than anything else, and Toyotas are no more bulletproof than anything else.
I would look more at general condition than at raw mileage, but certainly the odds of failure increase with age.
 
#8 · (Edited)
What's been lost horsepower wise, over the 130K to feel the need for an extra 50 ponies?
New IC bigger one or a rebuild of the turbo are expensive. At 130k the stock turbo has seen
better days. The cost of these... do I feel the need for speed worth it for the 50?

With the list of mods you have done, what's left to add or replace for the extra 50 you seek?
New Plugs & coil packs, new injectors with TB clean, with head work cleaning valves might get you a
few missing ponies? 20-30 maybe? At 130k the bottom end of the motor could be an issue for an improvement.
Costly and time consuming, but some cars can go forever with no major motor work being done despite their high mileage.
All 50 at once, or 10 at a time? 3-4 small improvements over the 2 Big ticket items is always the
question of, Do I spent my money on this? For the 50 = $ ? What is your limit for the goal ?

AT 130k is it time to refresh the motor, even if you don't think it needs it? Why stop at 50 is I guess
my question here? Top half of the motor tear down, with new parts/rebuilt parts could gain you … 85 extra ponies.
Leaving out any transmission upgrades, rear end improvements, weight reduction, when is it time to look
at the mileage & age before you take your car off the road for a refresh? Belts and hoses, gaskets/seals,
torque settings, compression loss, cam wear, uneven fuel delivery, over the many miles of smiles... 130k of them
in this case... Leave it as is, or roll the dice with new mods, and.. costs, and any tuning time with reliability has
become the owners choice here... I have the final say to where my money goes to when it comes to my car.

Seeking more horsepower always comes with a cost? How fast do you want to go, or in this case, more power
depends on what your willing to sacrifice from your credit card to reach this bar you have set for your goal of 50?
$250 for 50? Over/Under? $2500. for 150? $5k for V8? At 130K … the choice for improvement is in your court.

Lot of owners here have some real insightful help/options/opinions on where we owners can help our cars.
I babble to much here, sorry about that gang. Mindless wandering when it comes to cars, and my love of driving
the roads. Trans like... story telling, real life on the road experiences, some humor and an open mind when learning
about the Kappa. Been real fun for me as an owner/car nut to have joined this club of smiles.

Be interesting to see what the OP does for the 50 he seeks? At what cost? How much if any down time for the car?
With drivability or dependability as our top concern here, what are you willing to put up with, if any as an owner?
What would you members do or I do for the 50 extra, and at what cost to our credit cards?

* I live at 6500' elevation … I missed this, but this fact of higher elevation is part of the problem.
Air density... or lack there of, fuel/air ratio , MAF/ re-tuning... (ahh Robo some test data stats for this) for
this type of elevation. At sea level the gains or losses will vary depending on your location. I live at less
than 2500 ft. Running here in the low hills of Western MD. compared to when I am down by the
Chesapeake Bay ( near my daughters place ) my car does run differently. Stock no mods.
A little more umph...twss. K&N filter with... forced ram air induction mod with a re-tune plus some motor
refresh could get you the 50? You could always move.. to a lower elevation? Nah...

LAC
 
#9 ·
Lots of great insights and comments here, thanks!!!
Wsphon probably has the response closest to what I'd do, if anything.
Skersfan, I feel your pain!! I've had a few similar experiences with other cars.
Roboman...yeah I've read lots of your post in regards to being a bad influence...right. I don't think so.



Just to be clear, I'm not looking to make this an all out hotrod, just a little more then the 325 or so bhp it has now, so working over the stock turbo and a little additional tuning sounds about right. I'm thinking even at 130,000 miles it should handle that. Thanks for all the great replies!
 
#10 ·
Robotech has been the recepient of three blown engines in the last 4 months. and now building number 5 with number 6 finalization next week. HE truly isn't the person to ask on this stuff. I am hoping these last two actually work how hat he wants them to do. I have my doubts he will be satisfied with them. mine went to basic stock this afternoon. No more giant turbo, will tune in the morninig. And as much money and time as I have wasted over the last year and half, I am glad I did it, but much happier to know what I had was enough to begin with.
 
#12 ·
LOL No no no no…

Let's be clear...a blown engine is one where you BREAK something in the block causing the engine not to run. Rod through the block, demolished piston, spun bearings, those are blowing an engine. I've broken pistons on the Grand Prix and didn't blow the engine. (the 3800s were known for snapping pistons)

Last year in April my fiancé's 2013 Hyundai Veloster Turbo blew a head gasket because it was tuned with boost that was on the cusp of what was believed it could handle. The head studs were weaker than expected, stretched, and blew the head gasket. No water in the oil, no oil in the water, a slight water leak into the cylinder but not enough to cause it to have vapor in the exhaust, car still driveable and wouldn't over heat unless stopped at a light.

My head gasket started to fail last September. Still driveable. No smoke, no oil in the water, no water in the oil. Basically did the same thing my fiancé's car did.

Fiance's engine build was unplanned when we went to replace the head gasket and found rings in 1 and 4 looking shot. 2013 Hyundai Veloster turbos are notorious for putting rods through the block after 60K miles and no one knows for sure why. We believe the rings would have led to a catastrophic failure had we not rebuilt or replaced it. So we rebuilt it with all forged internals. The head gasket going out was probably a good thing as the engine would have gone south not much after the head gasket went.

My engine was already going to be upgraded. The engine I have going in now was ordered before I blew my head gasket. In April the Sky's damaged gasket finally gave out and the "Hey let's put this in when we can" turned into "We need to get this in now" and that's what I've been trying to do since.

My fiancé's engine just ate a plug last month. No idea why it happened but the bottom of the plug (what you'd bend to adjust the spark gap) broke off in the engine, bounced around, and we believe it hung a valve in the head. One of those stupid things that can happen. It's going to the shop next weekend to have it looked at and determine what our next step is.

So in the last four months I blew an already damaged head gasket and ate a spark plug. That's it. In the last year, you can add to that one more blown head gasket. Not a great record, but far from 6 engines in 4 months. LOL

Why you guys continue to use BHP? Dyno measure whp and calculate bhp which is only an approximation.
I'm not one to usually use BHP numbers. Having come from the GM W-body world, I am use to talking in WHP since once you modify the car, that's the only measurement you can make. You can approximate BHP, but WHP is the only number you can accurately measure. I have found though that HP Tuners can be used to get you a pretty close guestimation on WHP.

I put my car on a chassis dyno and came away with 250 whp. I then went home and set up HPT to calculate BHP based on the ECM's calculations. Getting that BHP number from HPT I calculated back to WHP and came up with 249 WHP. For me, that was close enough to trust the numbers I get from HPT to get a very close guess as to what I'm making at the wheels without it being on a dyno. 266 is where I was at when the head went. 15-16 PSI is just a little much on the stock LE5's head bolts.
 
#11 ·
Why you guys continue to use BHP? Dyno measure whp and calculate bhp which is only an approximation

Ethanol blend tune would give you around 30 whp more

BW-k04 10-20 whp

Catless downpipe: 5 whp over the HF downpipe

If you can't or want an ethanol blend tune the only other way to reach your goal of 50 whp is going big turbo efr 6758.
 
#13 ·
BW-k04 10-20 whp
Dyno results on a big wheel impeller turbo show 324 whp (GMPP tune, ~ 246 whp), which are approximately the claimed 290 for GMPP and 375 at the flywheel for the big wheel conversion. A tad more than the 10-20 you predict.
 
#16 ·
The Veloster original engine failed, it had to be pulled and rebuilt. At this time you have no real idea of what failed in the second engine, did the plug break or did the piston hit it. Either way, there has to be some damage to the head, piston or cylinder wall. Hoping you are lucky and it passed. But either way, if it were mine, it is coming apart to see. I know at first you were concerned it was major. Has that changed.

For me if the engine has to come apart to have major components repaired or replaced the engine is blown. It will not run without doing further damage. Blown. I know the Veloster hasn't been moved in a couple of weeks or so, maybe more.

I just hate seeing you put all this money into your cars, with the luck you have had. I am hoping that everything is fixed and lasts when this is all done.

Tomorrow I am taking the 2.0 engine out of Patti's original car, down to the shop to have it rebuilt. I am doing everything I can to make it bullet proof on the lower end, but no horsepower gain or improvement. I want to put a new engine in the yellow car as soon as possible. Have no faith it will survive and plan on driving it to South Dakota next summer.
 
#17 ·
The Veloster's pistons have a couple scratches on the top but no cracks or chips taken out of it. Certainly won't hurt it to run that way. Just need to verify the part of the spark plug that broke off didn't damage the rings. We are certain the plug broke on it's own. Could be low speed detonation considering the car's operation at time of failure (up hill cruising speed on the freeway). It can run...did run after the plug went. Just once I got it somewhere safe I didn't want to run it more than I had to and a simple plug change didn't fix it. A hung valve isn't too major...$150 for the head and a few hundred for the labor to swap it out. If the rings are damaged then we're talking more especially if it took out the sleeve. Either way, a blown engine won't run.

The original engine DID NOT fail. We could have thrown a head gasket on it and called it good. However, the condition of the engine meant that failure could be imminent. For that reason we felt rebuilding it was the best course of action since the engine was already out of the head gasket.
 
#18 ·
I guess different terminology. If the pistons were worn out and they had to be replaced, then or in the near future the engine to me is toast. I don't like living on the edge.
The other half's friend has a Veloster with close to 120K on it and no problems, but did hear Curtis say they were problem children.
 
#19 ·
Obviously Robo man wants to make sure we know exactly what's going on with his stuff, (i.e. The same 3 posts). Hahaha. But for sure he's been busy.

Skers, I've popped 2 built LS3 based 416 engines and at $15,000 a pop I ran up the white flag and "sold" the C5 Z06 to my son for less then The engine replacement.

I used the bhp terminology to describe I'd like 375 BHP vs WHP knowing folks would be having a fit thinking I want to add that much power on a 130,000 mile engine.

Wsphon-where did you send your stock turbo to have it reworked and what could I expect with cost as well as a better bolt in IC?
 
#20 · (Edited)
I was lucky with the Mallett I guess. I used to drag race big blocks back in the early 70's.. Back then, with trannies not quite as good, if you missed a gear, there was a good chance the big block went away big. I drove the Mallett the first time with my mechanic and did a normal power shift and he about had a fit. I grew up worrying about what happened when you missed shifts, today the computer saves the rod poking its ugly head out the side of the block. I had a Hullman/Moody 428 Cobra Jet blow in the second week I had it. 7K back in 1970 if I remember correctly. That was twice as much as the car was new. The other half made it quite clear, there would not be another mod done. I adhered to the rule pretty closely for awhile.

I truly have come to the conclusion that near stock is the best way. My Skpel ran right this evening for the first time in a year and a half. Took all the big turbo crap off of it, went back to the second version of my Stock Trifecta tune and the car runs great. No pops, no bangs and no soot on the back of the car. It may not be as fast as it was in the straight away, but just as fast and more in control in the twisties it seems. Fun to drive it with out worrying it was going to blow at any second. I guess I have just gotten old. I don't enjoy working on them any more and they are so damned low when I do, I regret it for a week.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Skers-I knew if I gave it sufficient time I'd remember the $30,000 dropped on the 2 engines in my C5 Z06. Still makes me wince.

So just to scratch the itch of doing something and knowing no power to really be gained I ordered a set of ddm charge tubes and I cant even find where the red power cable to load another tune has gone to. (I know, not needed but just one more expense I'd then have to pony up to put any more power into the car)
In the meantime, I went in to get a gall bladder removed and a week later a simple meniscus tear repaired. 3 weeks later after contracting a serious infection during the surgery and damn near not surviving that I'm just trying to get back to feeling well enough to install the charge tubes.

The last 10 days have been VERY unpleasant! Maybe I'll just get the tubes on and go drive the thing once my knee lets me operate the clutch pedal...
 
#24 ·
Robotech's explanation is just what he has to say to placate his wife, he really doesnt believe it..........its not blown, just a little bent.......its not my fault I ruined your car, Honey....No blown engine "behind the green curtain".......
 
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