Do I dare try to add another 50hp? - Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 07:41 PM Thread Starter
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Do I dare try to add another 50hp?

Like many of you I've had faster cars and spent the coin to fix them when the mods went boom, so I've been a little reluctant to do anymore then I currently have (trifecta budget tune, solo hf cat, solo Mach exhaust, ddm charge pipes, k&n drop in filter).
Wondering what might be needed to get another 50 ponies or so without messing with the drivability or dependability?

Is there a slightly better bolt on ic or turbo, or just a rebuild of the stock turbo for a little more power without introducing anymore lag?
Car has 130,000 miles on it currently so maybe those things need a freshen up anyway? Would that then require more tuning to make it all work? (Can't find the dang red cable) 375-400 BHP seems would be about right. I live at 6500' elevation so I could use just a bit more umph.
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 01:11 PM
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You can get there with a modified stock turbo - they install a larger impeller for more volume and there is no significant penalty in terms of lag. You can get into the 360-375 bhp area and that's about it for a set up based on the stock turbo. It would require a custom logged tune (Trifecta can do that for you).

If you want 400 bhp or more, you are looking at changing turbos. Lots of threads on all this if you search.

No need to change anything else you have to accommodate the added power.

1957 Jamaican MGA
1958 MGA Twincam
1962 MGA Coupe
1971 Jensen Interceptor
2007 BMW Z4M coupe
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe
departed
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1969 MGC roadster,
1969 Lamborghini Islero S
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 08:25 PM
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The answer to more power is always yes...

...but I may not be the best influence. LOL


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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 08:42 PM
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That many miles, making more power normally is not recommended.

I think the best answer is the big wheel that Bill suggested. I have tried for awhile to get the bigger turbo to work properly, without codes, and soot all over the car. I have finally given up.

If you have the ability to do all the work and are willing to deal with the car being undependable, by all means modify away. Just not worth the nightmare as far as I am concerned
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If you can adjust the boost, you can get an AM IC and you might be able to get another 30hp or so....
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 11:15 PM
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Am I wrong on it being a lot of miles to adding significant horsepower to.

Toyota came out with a Turbo for my 2007 FJ. One of the guidelines, if over 60K they did not recommend doing, and would not be done by the dealership. Toyota's are nearly bullet proof, I have over 177K on mine and it still runs like new.

I would be very worried about the bottom end with that many miles.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skersfan View Post
Am I wrong on it being a lot of miles to adding significant horsepower to.

Toyota came out with a Turbo for my 2007 FJ. One of the guidelines, if over 60K they did not recommend doing, and would not be done by the dealership. Toyota's are nearly bullet proof, I have over 177K on mine and it still runs like new.

I would be very worried about the bottom end with that many miles.
There is at least one member (here or at Solsticeforum) that supercharged his 2.4 at 100k without any reported problems.
What a dealership will and won't do, and what a manufacturer will or won't recommend, is rooted more in probability than anything else, and Toyotas are no more bulletproof than anything else.
I would look more at general condition than at raw mileage, but certainly the odds of failure increase with age.

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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-18-2019, 09:20 AM
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What's been lost horsepower wise, over the 130K to feel the need for an extra 50 ponies?
New IC bigger one or a rebuild of the turbo are expensive. At 130k the stock turbo has seen
better days. The cost of these... do I feel the need for speed worth it for the 50?

With the list of mods you have done, what's left to add or replace for the extra 50 you seek?
New Plugs & coil packs, new injectors with TB clean, with head work cleaning valves might get you a
few missing ponies? 20-30 maybe? At 130k the bottom end of the motor could be an issue for an improvement.
Costly and time consuming, but some cars can go forever with no major motor work being done despite their high mileage.
All 50 at once, or 10 at a time? 3-4 small improvements over the 2 Big ticket items is always the
question of, Do I spent my money on this? For the 50 = $ ? What is your limit for the goal ?

AT 130k is it time to refresh the motor, even if you don't think it needs it? Why stop at 50 is I guess
my question here? Top half of the motor tear down, with new parts/rebuilt parts could gain you … 85 extra ponies.
Leaving out any transmission upgrades, rear end improvements, weight reduction, when is it time to look
at the mileage & age before you take your car off the road for a refresh? Belts and hoses, gaskets/seals,
torque settings, compression loss, cam wear, uneven fuel delivery, over the many miles of smiles... 130k of them
in this case... Leave it as is, or roll the dice with new mods, and.. costs, and any tuning time with reliability has
become the owners choice here... I have the final say to where my money goes to when it comes to my car.

Seeking more horsepower always comes with a cost? How fast do you want to go, or in this case, more power
depends on what your willing to sacrifice from your credit card to reach this bar you have set for your goal of 50?
$250 for 50? Over/Under? $2500. for 150? $5k for V8? At 130K … the choice for improvement is in your court.

Lot of owners here have some real insightful help/options/opinions on where we owners can help our cars.
I babble to much here, sorry about that gang. Mindless wandering when it comes to cars, and my love of driving
the roads. Trans like... story telling, real life on the road experiences, some humor and an open mind when learning
about the Kappa. Been real fun for me as an owner/car nut to have joined this club of smiles.

Be interesting to see what the OP does for the 50 he seeks? At what cost? How much if any down time for the car?
With drivability or dependability as our top concern here, what are you willing to put up with, if any as an owner?
What would you members do or I do for the 50 extra, and at what cost to our credit cards?

* I live at 6500' elevation … I missed this, but this fact of higher elevation is part of the problem.
Air density... or lack there of, fuel/air ratio , MAF/ re-tuning... (ahh Robo some test data stats for this) for
this type of elevation. At sea level the gains or losses will vary depending on your location. I live at less
than 2500 ft. Running here in the low hills of Western MD. compared to when I am down by the
Chesapeake Bay ( near my daughters place ) my car does run differently. Stock no mods.
A little more umph...twss. K&N filter with... forced ram air induction mod with a re-tune plus some motor
refresh could get you the 50? You could always move.. to a lower elevation? Nah...

LAC

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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-18-2019, 08:00 PM Thread Starter
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Lots of great insights and comments here, thanks!!!
Wsphon probably has the response closest to what I'd do, if anything.
Skersfan, I feel your pain!! I've had a few similar experiences with other cars.
Roboman...yeah I've read lots of your post in regards to being a bad influence...right. I don't think so.



Just to be clear, I'm not looking to make this an all out hotrod, just a little more then the 325 or so bhp it has now, so working over the stock turbo and a little additional tuning sounds about right. I'm thinking even at 130,000 miles it should handle that. Thanks for all the great replies!
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 12:56 AM
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Robotech has been the recepient of three blown engines in the last 4 months. and now building number 5 with number 6 finalization next week. HE truly isn't the person to ask on this stuff. I am hoping these last two actually work how hat he wants them to do. I have my doubts he will be satisfied with them. mine went to basic stock this afternoon. No more giant turbo, will tune in the morninig. And as much money and time as I have wasted over the last year and half, I am glad I did it, but much happier to know what I had was enough to begin with.
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Why you guys continue to use BHP? Dyno measure whp and calculate bhp which is only an approximation

Ethanol blend tune would give you around 30 whp more

BW-k04 10-20 whp

Catless downpipe: 5 whp over the HF downpipe

If you can't or want an ethanol blend tune the only other way to reach your goal of 50 whp is going big turbo efr 6758.
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skersfan View Post
Robotech has been the recepient of three blown engines in the last 4 months. and now building number 5 with number 6 finalization next week. HE truly isn't the person to ask on this stuff. I am hoping these last two actually work how hat he wants them to do. I have my doubts he will be satisfied with them. mine went to basic stock this afternoon. No more giant turbo, will tune in the morninig. And as much money and time as I have wasted over the last year and half, I am glad I did it, but much happier to know what I had was enough to begin with.
LOL No no no no…

Let's be clear...a blown engine is one where you BREAK something in the block causing the engine not to run. Rod through the block, demolished piston, spun bearings, those are blowing an engine. I've broken pistons on the Grand Prix and didn't blow the engine. (the 3800s were known for snapping pistons)

Last year in April my fiancé's 2013 Hyundai Veloster Turbo blew a head gasket because it was tuned with boost that was on the cusp of what was believed it could handle. The head studs were weaker than expected, stretched, and blew the head gasket. No water in the oil, no oil in the water, a slight water leak into the cylinder but not enough to cause it to have vapor in the exhaust, car still driveable and wouldn't over heat unless stopped at a light.

My head gasket started to fail last September. Still driveable. No smoke, no oil in the water, no water in the oil. Basically did the same thing my fiancé's car did.

Fiance's engine build was unplanned when we went to replace the head gasket and found rings in 1 and 4 looking shot. 2013 Hyundai Veloster turbos are notorious for putting rods through the block after 60K miles and no one knows for sure why. We believe the rings would have led to a catastrophic failure had we not rebuilt or replaced it. So we rebuilt it with all forged internals. The head gasket going out was probably a good thing as the engine would have gone south not much after the head gasket went.

My engine was already going to be upgraded. The engine I have going in now was ordered before I blew my head gasket. In April the Sky's damaged gasket finally gave out and the "Hey let's put this in when we can" turned into "We need to get this in now" and that's what I've been trying to do since.

My fiancé's engine just ate a plug last month. No idea why it happened but the bottom of the plug (what you'd bend to adjust the spark gap) broke off in the engine, bounced around, and we believe it hung a valve in the head. One of those stupid things that can happen. It's going to the shop next weekend to have it looked at and determine what our next step is.

So in the last four months I blew an already damaged head gasket and ate a spark plug. That's it. In the last year, you can add to that one more blown head gasket. Not a great record, but far from 6 engines in 4 months. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssky View Post
Why you guys continue to use BHP? Dyno measure whp and calculate bhp which is only an approximation.
I'm not one to usually use BHP numbers. Having come from the GM W-body world, I am use to talking in WHP since once you modify the car, that's the only measurement you can make. You can approximate BHP, but WHP is the only number you can accurately measure. I have found though that HP Tuners can be used to get you a pretty close guestimation on WHP.

I put my car on a chassis dyno and came away with 250 whp. I then went home and set up HPT to calculate BHP based on the ECM's calculations. Getting that BHP number from HPT I calculated back to WHP and came up with 249 WHP. For me, that was close enough to trust the numbers I get from HPT to get a very close guess as to what I'm making at the wheels without it being on a dyno. 266 is where I was at when the head went. 15-16 PSI is just a little much on the stock LE5's head bolts.


V.A.L. (#1108)
2007 2.4 Base
MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car
**Sold**

Max (#1547)
2007 TURBO 2.4
Too much to list here. See my Garage for details.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssky View Post

BW-k04 10-20 whp
Dyno results on a big wheel impeller turbo show 324 whp (GMPP tune, ~ 246 whp), which are approximately the claimed 290 for GMPP and 375 at the flywheel for the big wheel conversion. A tad more than the 10-20 you predict.

1957 Jamaican MGA
1958 MGA Twincam
1962 MGA Coupe
1971 Jensen Interceptor
2007 BMW Z4M coupe
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe
departed
1965 Jensen CV8
1969 MGC roadster,
1969 Lamborghini Islero S
1988 Pontiac Fiero GT

Bill in BC
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skersfan View Post
Robotech has been the recepient of three blown engines in the last 4 months. and now building number 5 with number 6 finalization next week. HE truly isn't the person to ask on this stuff. I am hoping these last two actually work how hat he wants them to do. I have my doubts he will be satisfied with them. mine went to basic stock this afternoon. No more giant turbo, will tune in the morninig. And as much money and time as I have wasted over the last year and half, I am glad I did it, but much happier to know what I had was enough to begin with.
LOL No no no no…

Let's be clear...a blown engine is one where you BREAK something in the block causing the engine not to run. Rod through the block, demolished piston, spun bearings, those are blowing an engine. I've broken pistons on the Grand Prix and didn't blow the engine. (the 3800s were known for snapping pistons)

Last year in April my fiancé's 2013 Hyundai Veloster Turbo blew a head gasket because it was tuned with boost that was on the cusp of what was believed it could handle. The head studs were weaker than expected, stretched, and blew the head gasket. No water in the oil, no oil in the water, a slight water leak into the cylinder but not enough to cause it to have vapor in the exhaust, car still driveable and wouldn't over heat unless stopped at a light.

My head gasket started to fail last September. Still driveable. No smoke, no oil in the water, no water in the oil. Basically did the same thing my fiancé's car did.

Fiance's engine build was unplanned when we went to replace the head gasket and found rings in 1 and 4 looking shot. 2013 Hyundai Veloster turbos are notorious for putting rods through the block after 60K miles and no one knows for sure why. We believe the rings would have led to a catastrophic failure had we not rebuilt or replaced it. So we rebuilt it with all forged internals. The head gasket going out was probably a good thing as the engine would have gone south not much after the head gasket went.

My engine was already going to be upgraded. The engine I have going in now was ordered before I blew my head gasket. In April the Sky's damaged gasket finally gave out and the "Hey let's put this in when we can" turned into "We need to get this in now" and that's what I've been trying to do since.

My fiancé's engine just ate a plug last month. No idea why it happened but the bottom of the plug (what you'd bend to adjust the spark gap) broke off in the engine, bounced around, and we believe it hung a valve in the head. One of those stupid things that can happen. It's going to the shop next weekend to have it looked at and determine what our next step is.

So in the last four months I blew an already damaged head gasket and ate a spark plug. That's it. In the last year, you can add to that one more blown head gasket. Not a great record, but far from 6 engines in 4 months. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssky View Post
Why you guys continue to use BHP? Dyno measure whp and calculate bhp which is only an approximation.
I'm not one to usually use BHP numbers. Having come from the GM W-body world, I am use to talking in WHP since once you modify the car, that's the only measurement you can make. You can approximate BHP, but WHP is the only number you can accurately measure. I have found though that HP Tuners can be used to get you a pretty close guestimation on WHP.

I put my car on a chassis dyno and came away with 250 whp. I then went home and set up HPT to calculate BHP based on the ECM's calculations. Getting that BHP number from HPT I calculated back to WHP and came up with 249 WHP. For me, that was close enough to trust the numbers I get from HPT to get a very close guess as to what I'm making at the wheels without it being on a dyno. 266 is where I was at when the head went. 15-16 PSI is just a little much on the stock LE5's head bolts.


V.A.L. (#1108)
2007 2.4 Base
MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car
**Sold**

Max (#1547)
2007 TURBO 2.4
Too much to list here. See my Garage for details.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skersfan View Post
Robotech has been the recepient of three blown engines in the last 4 months. and now building number 5 with number 6 finalization next week. HE truly isn't the person to ask on this stuff. I am hoping these last two actually work how hat he wants them to do. I have my doubts he will be satisfied with them. mine went to basic stock this afternoon. No more giant turbo, will tune in the morninig. And as much money and time as I have wasted over the last year and half, I am glad I did it, but much happier to know what I had was enough to begin with.
LOL No no no no…

Let's be clear...a blown engine is one where you BREAK something in the block causing the engine not to run. Rod through the block, demolished piston, spun bearings, those are blowing an engine. I've broken pistons on the Grand Prix and didn't blow the engine. (the 3800s were known for snapping pistons)

Last year in April my fiancé's 2013 Hyundai Veloster Turbo blew a head gasket because it was tuned with boost that was on the cusp of what was believed it could handle. The head studs were weaker than expected, stretched, and blew the head gasket. No water in the oil, no oil in the water, a slight water leak into the cylinder but not enough to cause it to have vapor in the exhaust, car still driveable and wouldn't over heat unless stopped at a light.

My head gasket started to fail last September. Still driveable. No smoke, no oil in the water, no water in the oil. Basically did the same thing my fiancé's car did.

Fiance's engine build was unplanned when we went to replace the head gasket and found rings in 1 and 4 looking shot. 2013 Hyundai Veloster turbos are notorious for putting rods through the block after 60K miles and no one knows for sure why. We believe the rings would have led to a catastrophic failure had we not rebuilt or replaced it. So we rebuilt it with all forged internals. The head gasket going out was probably a good thing as the engine would have gone south not much after the head gasket went.

My engine was already going to be upgraded. The engine I have going in now was ordered before I blew my head gasket. In April the Sky's damaged gasket finally gave out and the "Hey let's put this in when we can" turned into "We need to get this in now" and that's what I've been trying to do since.

My fiancé's engine just ate a plug last month. No idea why it happened but the bottom of the plug (what you'd bend to adjust the spark gap) broke off in the engine, bounced around, and we believe it hung a valve in the head. One of those stupid things that can happen. It's going to the shop next weekend to have it looked at and determine what our next step is.

So in the last four months I blew an already damaged head gasket and ate a spark plug. That's it. In the last year, you can add to that one more blown head gasket. Not a great record, but far from 6 engines in 4 months. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssky View Post
Why you guys continue to use BHP? Dyno measure whp and calculate bhp which is only an approximation.
I'm not one to usually use BHP numbers. Having come from the GM W-body world, I am use to talking in WHP since once you modify the car, that's the only measurement you can make. You can approximate BHP, but WHP is the only number you can accurately measure. I have found though that HP Tuners can be used to get you a pretty close guestimation on WHP.

I put my car on a chassis dyno and came away with 250 whp. I then went home and set up HPT to calculate BHP based on the ECM's calculations. Getting that BHP number from HPT I calculated back to WHP and came up with 249 WHP. For me, that was close enough to trust the numbers I get from HPT to get a very close guess as to what I'm making at the wheels without it being on a dyno. 266 is where I was at when the head went. 15-16 PSI is just a little much on the stock LE5's head bolts.


V.A.L. (#1108)
2007 2.4 Base
MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car
**Sold**

Max (#1547)
2007 TURBO 2.4
Too much to list here. See my Garage for details.
Robotech is offline  
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