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post #16 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 01:41 PM
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Facts-

1- Knock Retard DOES NOT KILL MOTORS. I have yet to see an LNF damaged by knock. If you don't believe me, find one and prove me wrong.

2- Having a tune that shows NO Knock Retard defeats the whole point of the knock control system. You might as well just take the knock sensors out and turn off KR in the tune.

3- Every GM tune, on every GM car built in the last decade at least, will show TONS of KR, many times up to 10-15 degrees. It's completely normal. IT'S THE WAY THE SYSTEM IS SUPPOSED TO WORK. GM motors are some of the most dependable made. LS V8's are some of their best engines. Every C/K truck, Suburban or Yukon driving around out there has GOBS of real knock. You can actually HEAR the knock. I have yet to see a stock LS motor with damage caused by excessive knock. Not saying it never happens, it's just extremely rare. A certain amount of REAL knock is actually BENEFICIAL to an engine. (Bet you guys didn't know that one!)

I get so tired of hearing all this KR [email protected] It's right up there with "Spark Blowout" for me. 99% of the stuff you guys are reading and passing around about Knock Retard is BS. Yeah the GMPP tune will show KR. Can anyone show me a motor with knock damage caused by a GMPP tune? Find one and prove me wrong. Otherwise don't assume since you, or your ace "tuner" has given you a tune with no knock retard that your motor is safely tuned. KR does NOT mean your motor is gonna blow up. All of the blown LNF motors I've seen and heard about had NOTHING to do with KR.

Sorry to yell guys!

edit-

OP-
The GMPP tune is fine if you want to retain your warranty and emission law compliance. The only Trifecta tune I would possibly even consider recommending would be the bone stock canned tune on a bone stock LNF. He (Vince) does somewhat OK in that situation. Any mods, or ESPECIALLY running E47 or E85, stay away from Trifecta. He's blown more motors than any tuner out there. DO NOT even consider ZZP, I've seen plenty of their work and tunes and they're horrible. Again, many blown ZZP motors out there. If you want more than the GMPP tune will give you, search around for a decent HPTuners guy, there's a few out there that will do a better job than Trifecta or ZZP on modified LNF's. (Gotta throw another one in here, I would also not recommend DDM for tuning work. Sorry Dave.)

Last edited by gmtech16450yz; 09-03-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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post #17 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 02:11 PM
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Just my opinion, but I would only put the GMPP tune on my car. I've played around with cars and aftermarket parts long enough to know that the manufacturer (almost always) knows best.
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post #18 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 04:19 PM
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Just my opinion, but I would only put the GMPP tune on my car. I've played around with cars and aftermarket parts long enough to know that the manufacturer (almost always) knows best.
No doubt the manufacturer will have a safer and more conservative tune. They know what's best for them.

-GT
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post #19 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 06:08 PM
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I would recommend GMPP all dai every dai
Why? Preference? Just curious.

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post #20 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 06:28 PM
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Why? Preference? Just curious.

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keep reading down. he was being sarcastic
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post #21 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 07:19 PM
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and then read post #16

2007 Sky Redline: DDMWorks V8 Conversion- LS376 525hp 6.2L, TR6060 6-speed, Custom Magnaflow exhaust, DDMWorks Backbone brace, DDMWorks Pro Beam, BC Coilovers, Wilwood(Front)BBK, Norms Full Hardtop and Rear facia. Tuned on LS2Edit
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post #22 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 07:21 PM
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and then read post #16
made me feel like i was getting slapped in the back of the wrist with a ruler
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post #23 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 09:17 PM
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@gmtech ...
You seem to be using the terms "knock" and "knock retard" interchangeably. Are they the same thing? Perhaps you could explain?

-GT
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post #24 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 10:23 PM
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Knock hurts pistons, ringlands, rings, bearings, etc. this is documented on all forums for all cars. See all below:

Knock - Where's the threshold between safe or not? - Page 3 - Subaru Impreza WRX STI Forums: IWSTI.com

How much knock is acceptable? - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum

How much knock retard is OK?

is knock retard ok?... - HP Tuners Bulletin Board

How much knock retard is ok? - PerformanceTrucks.net Forums


Pre-ignition, detonation, knock, pinging, etc are all the same. All is bad for a car motor. You want to tune for zero knock and default to the Knock sensors to help eliminate the knock when something changes that was unforeseen when tuning... IE bad fuel, mechanical failures, etc


There have been documented failures of GMPP tuned cars with bolt ons losing piston rings/ring lands. This can be a result of excessive knock over a long period of time. However obviously you cannot conclusively say that the GMPP was at fault for the failure. Luckily because it was a GMPP tune, the motor was covered under warranty no questions asked.
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post #25 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 11:35 PM
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@gmtech ...
You seem to be using the terms "knock" and "knock retard" interchangeably. Are they the same thing? Perhaps you could explain?

-GT
Precisely my point. They are two different things. "Knock Retard" does not cause damage. "Knock" does, but only if it's excessive and prolonged. One or two, or even a dozen episodes of knock, even heavy knock, will NOT "blow up" a motor. When knock gets damaging is when it's constant, like a constant knock at freeway cruise speeds and load is the worst.

Miller- I don't come up with my theories, ideas or statements from google searching. I learned about knock 40 years ago from a man that knew so much about engines he changed the way an entire world wide industry operated. I then learned more in college, more in 4 years of college Auto Tech, and then learned more by having over 30 years of dealership experience and thousands of hours of factory training. Not to mention the hundreds of race engines I've built and worked on.

Google searching is great, but you obviously have come to the wrong conclusion about some of this. For instance, this statement is not true-
Quote:
Pre-ignition, detonation, knock, pinging, etc are all the same.
Better hit up google again, those are NOT all the same. And on the GMPP tune, to my knowledge there has been NOT ONE documented case of a GMPP tune engine failure caused by excessive knock. Knock does NOT break ring lands (at least like they break in the LNF specifically.) Excessive heat breaks ring lands. Excessive heat in 99% of the failures caused by modifications beyond what the GMPP tune is expected to run on. Meaning aftermarket intakes (lean mixtures), wastegate "adjustments" (too much boost) and especially tunes put on top of the GMPP tune, putting boost levels too high. Why do you think GM put out bulletins on aftermarket tuning and engine failures? Because they knew they weren't being caused by the stock tune or the GMPP tune, they were being caused by modifications beyond that.

My point here is please do not spread false information about things like the GMPP tune's "excessive" KR causing ring land failures. At least you said "with bolt ons". That's correct, the GMPP tune IS NOT MEANT FOR BOLT ON'S. It clearly states that and was NEVER intended to compensate for additional engine modifications. BTW, those modifications would have absolutely voided the warranty anyway. GM spent a ton of money buying engines and engine repairs they shouldn't have had to pay for.

Just because something is "documented on all the forums" doesn't mean it's correct. The opposite is more than likely the case. Sorry but ALL forums are full of HUGE misinformation. Gee, you didn't put a link the Cobalt forum, don't you think those guys are experts and everything on there is the gospel truth? lol. They got a guy over there who thinks his engine "blew" because he gapped his spark plugs once and the electrode "fell" off. Gee, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact his tuner is an incompetent kid.

Sorry about the wrist slapping guys, I just say it like I see it. Didn't mean to slap anyone's wrist, just trying to get the info straight and accurate.
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post #26 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-03-2012, 11:54 PM
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@gmtech ...
You seem to be using the terms "knock" and "knock retard" interchangeably. Are they the same thing? Perhaps you could explain?

-GT
Let me try to clear this up a little more if I can...

You can have "Knock Retard" and not have "Knock". That's what I meant in my first statement. KR in logs simply means that the ECU is retarding ign timing because it believes there was knock occurring. How the knock looks in the log is VERY important. Was it just one occurrence that triggered the KR? Was it constant knock that the KR could not control or was being maxed out? Was it even "real" knock?

Here's a good example, some of the factory LS tunes, especially late model 6.2L's, have an extremely long knock retard decay. Meaning you can have a little tip-in knock, which is mostly quite harmless, trigger knock retard that can last 15 seconds! Yes, one instance of knock can show knock retard for up to 15 seconds. Was it knocking for 15 seconds? No, most likely not. (Looking at the shape of the trace in the log would tell you if it kept knocking or it was just one occurrence and the knock retard control took care of it.)

Does that help? Knock is Knock. Knock Retard is what the computer does to avoid, lessen or eliminate Knock. You can have a tune showing a log full of knock retard and have a perfectly happy engine. (Millions of cars on the road are proof of that.) Knock Retard does NOT kill engines. If it did, there would be millions of engines with holes in their pistons. Ever see an LNF with a hole in it's piston? I bet not. I've personally worked on (not read about in a forum) many cars with holes in the pistons. I haven't seen one in quite a while, and I've NEVER seen one on an LNF.
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post #27 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-04-2012, 12:05 AM
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OP-
The GMPP tune is fine if you want to retain your warranty and emission law compliance. The only Trifecta tune I would possibly even consider recommending would be the bone stock canned tune on a bone stock LNF. He (Vince) does somewhat OK in that situation. Any mods, or ESPECIALLY running E47 or E85, stay away from Trifecta. He's blown more motors than any tuner out there. DO NOT even consider ZZP, I've seen plenty of their work and tunes and they're horrible. Again, many blown ZZP motors out there. If you want more than the GMPP tune will give you, search around for a decent HPTuners guy, there's a few out there that will do a better job than Trifecta or ZZP on modified LNF's. (Gotta throw another one in here, I would also not recommend DDM for tuning work. Sorry Dave.)
Just out of curiousity, who would you recommend for an E47 tune? I have the trifecta tune but have heard some negative things about his tunes so I've been thinking about getting a tune from someone else.
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post #28 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-04-2012, 02:45 AM
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i like when john posts up information, specifically on the lnf, to steer everyone in the right direction.

oh and im still waiting on you to make a hpt lnf tuning guide since you seem to know the most about tuning it. whadayasay?! its taking me too long to pick up everything just reading through the hpt forum with no prior experience in tuning anything.

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post #29 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-04-2012, 06:00 AM
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so you agree that true knock is bad, correct?

KR is what the motor's "prevention plan" to abate knock. Therefore why wouldn't you want the motor to just be happy and not have to play around to avoid it? Give the ECU a nice safe power curve and path that never has to avoid certain spots or pull timing to keep from causing stress on the motor? I would rather tune a car to the point where knock is completely avoided, and hence KR never has to be in the picture. Hence a tune with "zero KR" would be ideal in my opinion.

I think of a running motor, as say, driving down a road that a person has never gone down before. There can be potholes in the road that can disrupt and cause stress on the ride. For the sake of my analogy, lets call these "pot holes" in the road Knock, and the "ride" is the Map in the ECU. Now lets say KR is a person who is driving down the road for a second time. They know that last time they had the same conditions, they hit a big pothole and it cause unpleasant things, so this time, they change their path just slightly to avoid the pot hole. This is similar to what the motor does when it has a spot where KR came into play before, and adjusts timing to abate the knock. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the map reflect the safe path rather than try the more aggressive road and have to be corrected back to the safe path via the KR control?


I do agree that the KR itself does not kill motors, but what caused the KR control does, Knock itself. Plenty of cases of increased bearing wear, and prematurely low compression numbers, cracked pistons, etc are from different tuners running a motor to the edge with knock in the power band. Eventually it will cause something to break. Just because the chevy V8 platform is so robust, or the LNF's haven't seen high miles does not change this fact. This becomes very apparent when you are pushing a motor to its edge of its strength when setting records. The ability to make it run cleanly is what either kills it in a few miles or lets it run for some time.

I am good with a tune that just has no KR. But each tuner obviously has their own opinion, so there is no reason to continue the argument. I will gladly agree to disagree here.
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post #30 of 144 (permalink) Old 09-04-2012, 07:54 AM Thread Starter
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advice on tune

looks like the gm tune might be best for me if they still offer it,the local chevy dealer has no clue what im talking about when i mentioned it to them,i will probably go with the solo exhaust,im not sure about there cat though,if it makes the car too loud i might stay away from it for now.because from years ago in my dodge days of the 2.2 turbo some stuff made the little engine too much like a rice burner and i hate that sound.maybe im spoled from having the v8 sound for sometime.also i saw on ebay they sale the gm kit for the tune that is plug and play,you just have to go to the dealership and let them do the download.
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