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post #16 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-29-2009, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mbeardsley View Post
inherent slowness of the manual?

.
Inherent slowness
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post #17 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-29-2009, 05:58 PM
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Sorry, that didn't come out quite like I wanted...(I'm really not trying to start a war here)

I meant that the (non-upgraded) manual has a 0-60 time of 5.5 where the auto has a (non-upgraded) time of 5.2.

The upgraded manual gets an extra 15 ft-lbs of torque over the upgraded auto, but how do we know if that is enough to make an upgraded manual now faster than an upgraded auto?

I hope that is a bit clearer...

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post #18 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-29-2009, 07:46 PM
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Really! I have yet to see some one post a better time in the 1/8 or the 1/4 than I and I have an automatic!!mile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash's Owner View Post
The manual is faster.

Stock 260 ft-lb/260 hp, 6250 redline.

Auto PUpgrade 325 ft-lb/290 hp, 6500 redline
Manual PUpgrade Kit 340 ft-lb/290 hp, 6500 Redline.

https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/448655-post4.html

is my discussion on my car. It is not strictly stock, as the wastegate is tightened (currently 6 turns). I estimate on the development cars I ran (manual tranny) on average:

5.4 sec 0-60 13.95 @ 101 MPH 1/4 mile for stock manual tranny with clean shifts.

Approx 4.9 sec 0-60 13.65 @ 103 MPH 1/4 mile for manual tranny and only PUPgrade kit.

Tightening the wastegate gets some performance and higher speed through the traps, but not that much in terms of ET to 60mph or 1/4 mile. Be careful if you decide to change the wastegate, I am just telling you what I have done with my car for disclosure. It is possible to have warranty work denied because of wastegate tampering.

My discussion on this forum here about wastegate adjustment: https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/432719-post8.html

and my thoughts (NO RECOMMENDATIONS) on whether you should or should not tamper with the wastegate here: https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/403232-post964.html

Hope you found this helpful.
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post #19 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Flash's Owner View Post
Manual PUpgrade Kit 340 ft-lb/290 hp, 6500 Redline.
Corvette ZR1
-First Gear complete ratio: 7.83
-Engine Torque: 604 lb-ft
-Total torque after gearing: 4729 lb-ft

SKY RL (Stage II)
-First Gear complete ratio: 14.0
-Engine Torque: 340 lb-ft
-Total torque after gearing: 4760 lb-ft

Eat your heart out ZR1.

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post #20 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mbeardsley View Post
What makes you say that the Upgrade kit makes the manual faster than the auto? The stats you give are all for a manual.

The manual does get a few more pounds of torque, but how do you know that this is enough to overcome the inherent slowness of the manual?

Just to be clear, I'm NOT saying that you are wrong...I'd just like to know the facts behind your statement.

Thanks.
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Originally Posted by SR819 View Post
Inherent slowness
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbeardsley View Post
Sorry, that didn't come out quite like I wanted...(I'm really not trying to start a war here)

I meant that the (non-upgraded) manual has a 0-60 time of 5.5 where the auto has a (non-upgraded) time of 5.2.

The upgraded manual gets an extra 15 ft-lbs of torque over the upgraded auto, but how do we know if that is enough to make an upgraded manual now faster than an upgraded auto?

I hope that is a bit clearer...
It is clear to me.

I have run automatics, as well as my powertrain counterparts.

On stock cars, what happens is the automatics are very consistent, whereas manuals require absolutely spot on shifts at just the right RPM +/- about 75 RPM. It is like the modern ABS question. Most of the time, including averages of several runs, ABS will outbrake a normal person, but a professional driver may be able to outbrake ABS some of the time, and vary rarely get an average of several stops to match a highly efficient and well-tuned ABS.

The stock calibration is sensitive, and it is too easy to bump the fuel cutoff. Once that happens, the turbo spools down and you have a run with an added 0.1 to 0.3 seconds.

BUT, if you are consistent, you can get back to back runs on manuals that match an automatic. If you give a car to a magazine, you will see on average better and more consistent runs on an auto.

Keep in mind that I call them "back to back" runs, but you really need to run the car in the correct temperature range. If you start up and heat soak the car for 10 minutes, you can get knock and retarded timing and reduced boost right at the start, because your charge air cooler is warm and not cooling the intake charge enough. Conversely, I have found that if the coolant temp is not at least to 185F, you will not make full boost. I have not gotten an explanation of why this is, but it is very repeatable.

Now, with the PUpgrade Kit, you have an additional 15 ft-lb of torque in the manual, AND you have no-lift shift enabled. You also have another 250 RPM cushion from the fuel cutoff. The result is you can more easily get consistent runs at near-optimum speed, and the added torque once you hook up is enough to get a faster ET and speed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skyonpsi View Post
Really! I have yet to see some one post a better time in the 1/8 or the 1/4 than I and I have an automatic!!mile
I saw your timeslip, and no offence, but your car is either not stock, or the timeslip is simply incorrect.

A stock automatic RedLine or GXP will do, at best, 13.7 seconds in a 1/4 mile. Even experimental cars we had with known crank horsepower and torque have trouble getting that fast (12.961 seconds @ 106.6 MPH)

Your car would be making an implied 350 hp crank (290 rwhp), and the stock intake, stock catalytic converter, and even the stock turbo are not capable of producing that amount of power without significant risk to the turbine. The system would have to be running a boost pressure in excess of 2.8 bar to get to those power levels.

When you go full throttle at 50 mph, and your car downshifts, what does your DIC say for maximum boost pressure?
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I am a GM Engineer.

I do not claim to be a GM rep., all of my postings are my own interpretation and personal opinions.

I am a proud Solstice GXP owner (Flash). My wife, A FORMER GM engineer, is a proud Solstice GXP Coupe owner (Wicked).

Last edited by Flash's Owner; 07-30-2009 at 01:15 PM.
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post #21 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash's Owner View Post
It is clear to me.

Now, with the PUpgrade Kit, you have an additional 35 ft-lb of torque in the manual, AND you have no-lift shift enabled. You also have another 250 RPM cushion from the fuel cutoff.
Don't you mean an extra 15 ft-lb, not 35?
And doesn't the automatic get the extra 250 RPM also?

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post #22 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mbeardsley View Post
Don't you mean an extra 15 ft-lb, not 35?
And doesn't the automatic get the extra 250 RPM also?
Yes, corrected. My mistake.

The auto also gets the extra 250 RPM, but the shift points are not under your control. The auto will shift at the optimum point by itself, well short of 6500 RPM.

I am a GM Engineer.

I do not claim to be a GM rep., all of my postings are my own interpretation and personal opinions.

I am a proud Solstice GXP owner (Flash). My wife, A FORMER GM engineer, is a proud Solstice GXP Coupe owner (Wicked).
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post #23 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Flash's Owner View Post
Yes, corrected. My mistake.

The auto also gets the extra 250 RPM, but the shift points are not under your control. The auto will shift at the optimum point by itself, well short of 6500 RPM.
Correct, mine usually shifts right around 6300 at WOT.

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GMPP Stage 2, GMPP Cold Air Intake
Sequential Tail Lights, WindRestrictor
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post #24 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 05:44 PM
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General observation on the manual/auto thing.

With today's tech, the qtr mile sprint tends to favor the automatic or the paddle shifters. The automatic or paddle tech has exceeded the traditional speed advantages of the manual shifter.

Manual shift still rules the curvy track day, since optimal shifting is often anticipatory which is something an automatic can't do. Of course, then there are the paddle shifters, which are perhaps the best of both worlds. Driver gets to anticipate the shift AND gets the faster shifting (depending on the tech).

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post #25 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Bogie View Post
General observation on the manual/auto thing.

With today's tech, the qtr mile sprint tends to favor the automatic or the paddle shifters. The automatic or paddle tech has exceeded the traditional speed advantages of the manual shifter..
Absolutely right, Bogie. It takes hundreds of launches to get tuned to how each car needs to be shifted to have optimally short gearshifts. The Auto trannies do this job extremely well on a straight line shift.

However, they are less good on downshifting, and picking the right gear for the changing demands of a road track.

I am a GM Engineer.

I do not claim to be a GM rep., all of my postings are my own interpretation and personal opinions.

I am a proud Solstice GXP owner (Flash). My wife, A FORMER GM engineer, is a proud Solstice GXP Coupe owner (Wicked).
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post #26 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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Flash's Owner...I just noticed your sig...

I hope everything is OK for you in Detroit. I go there frequently...it is a shame what has happened to the city.

Also sorry about my Penguins beating the Redwings...WOW...what a series.

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post #27 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 05:12 PM
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Redlining at 50mph

I've had the GMPP upgrade for a couple months now (no other performance upgrades) and today I had to nail it and I redlined at 50mph in 2nd gear at WOT. My boost was reading 19psi. I don't think thats right so I'm taking the car in next Wednesday. In the mean time, does anybody have any idea why I can't reach 60mph in second gear? Thanks.

Don

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post #28 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 05:38 PM
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O.K. lets me see if i can explaine this. I have a 2007 gxp. At about 6000 miles i put on amagnaflow 3" exhaust and had the car dynoed. The car came in at 216h.p. I thought it was a little low but thats another story. I few days later i did a 0to60 and a 1/4 mile run on my dash-hawk. 0to 60was 4.9 and 1/4 mile times were in the 13.7,around 98mph. I did this numerous times that day and they were all pretty consistant. Later that year i took off the exhaust,and put the stock exhaust back on. Well now this year i did the gmpp tune and tried the dash-hawk test again. The numbers were exactily the same. The car is stock except for the tune,and 3000 more miles on the speedo. I should have tried the test after taking off the 3" exhaust but i didnt. Maybe the tune compinsated for taking off the exhaust. The reason i took off the magnaflow was it developed a real annoying drone at about 2000rpm.
Oh yeah the car is a auto.

If you gotta ask "how much?". you cant afford it.
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post #29 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbolift View Post
I've had the GMPP upgrade for a couple months now (no other performance upgrades) and today I had to nail it and I redlined at 50mph in 2nd gear at WOT. My boost was reading 19psi. I don't think thats right so I'm taking the car in next Wednesday. In the mean time, does anybody have any idea why I can't reach 60mph in second gear? Thanks.
Doesn't sound right - I know I have had mine past 60 in second and near 90 in third. Couldn't explain why you aren't getting there, although I do also have the RPi intercooler, exhaust, and high flow cat downpipe.

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post #30 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Flash's Owner View Post
It is clear to me.

I have run automatics, as well as my powertrain counterparts.

On stock cars, what happens is the automatics are very consistent, whereas manuals require absolutely spot on shifts at just the right RPM +/- about 75 RPM. It is like the modern ABS question. Most of the time, including averages of several runs, ABS will outbrake a normal person, but a professional driver may be able to outbrake ABS some of the time, and vary rarely get an average of several stops to match a highly efficient and well-tuned ABS.

The stock calibration is sensitive, and it is too easy to bump the fuel cutoff. Once that happens, the turbo spools down and you have a run with an added 0.1 to 0.3 seconds.



Keep in mind that I call them "back to back" runs, but you really need to run the car in the correct temperature range. If you start up and heat soak the car for 10 minutes, you can get knock and retarded timing and reduced boost right at the start, because your charge air cooler is warm and not cooling the intake charge enough. Conversely, I have found that if the coolant temp is not at least to 185F, you will not make full boost. I have not gotten an explanation of why this is, but it is very repeatable.

Now, with the PUpgrade Kit, you have an additional 15 ft-lb of torque in the manual, AND you have no-lift shift enabled. You also have another 250 RPM cushion from the fuel cutoff. The result is you can more easily get consistent runs at near-optimum speed, and the added torque once you hook up is enough to get a faster ET and speed.




I saw your timeslip, and no offence, but your car is either not stock, or the timeslip is simply incorrect.

A stock automatic RedLine or GXP will do, at best, 13.7 seconds in a 1/4 mile. Even experimental cars we had with known crank horsepower and torque have trouble getting that fast (12.961 seconds @ 106.6 MPH)

Your car would be making an implied 350 hp crank (290 rwhp), and the stock intake, stock catalytic converter, and even the stock turbo are not capable of producing that amount of power without significant risk to the turbine. The system would have to be running a boost pressure in excess of 2.8 bar to get to those power levels.

When you go full throttle at 50 mph, and your car downshifts, what does your DIC say for maximum boost pressure?
I have a stock engine/stock turbo/tranny but I have practiocally every possible bolt on that supposedly helps boost performance! My car is a perfect example what can be done to boost performance but not do any internal work. By the way, I'm seeing an average of 23lbs boost WOT!!
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