Available Sky - NO WAITING [Rule Discussion] - Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum
Saturn SKY vehicles/parts For Sale/Wanted Place for MEMBERS to post want to buy or vehicles for sale. NO COMMERCIAL POSTING, no PROMOTION OF VEHICLES OR ITEMS YOU DO NOT PERSONALLY OWN.

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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-22-2006, 10:08 PM Thread Starter
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Available Sky - NO WAITING [Rule Discussion]

Hey, all...



mod edit: Non-supporting dealer stock, info removed!

Last edited by RODEO; 04-23-2006 at 12:40 AM.
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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-22-2006, 11:31 PM
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HA HA HA...

hey Cosmo, how you doing? Nice to meet you.
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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 01:35 AM Thread Starter
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Is there a problem?

Well, my name is John, not Cosmo. He was the sales guy that I saw this morning at the dealership that went with me for a ride in the Sky. I am not a dealer, I am a customer. My Sky has not yet arrived...

I thought folks might like to know that a dealer stock Sky was available. Is there a problem posting this info on a forum like this? I thought it would be useful information for somebody looking for one that was available. I guess I don't understand why you would censor the information and keep people from getting a car that they obviously desire enough to come to this forum.

Is this site sponsored by some dealership or something? Or is it a free exchange of info for fans of the car? If your motives aren't for maximizing the experience of the Sky community - including letting people know that cars are indeed available - then I guess I don't understand your purpose here. Is this just a place for people to whine and moan that they can't seem to find a car? Gee, I thought it would be swell to try to help somebody...

Shows what I know.

By the way, I wanted to post the pictures of the car, but I can't seem to do that... Is it broken, or am I blocked?
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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 02:39 AM Thread Starter
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By the way...

Wanting to be a "good member" I just checked the FAQ for rules about posting about available cars. Nothing there. If you're going to whack posts and insult your members, then I'd recommend you at least explain your policies.

I signed on tonight to post the deal that I came to with the dealership where I am buying my Sky: what they charged as a premium, and what their "add-on" accessory was. I thought this would be useful information to share on the "Internet's Saturn Sky Community" but now I'm not so sure... I don't want to offend anybody by posting useful information here without knowing what the unposted rules are...

Let me just say this, too... Far from being a car salesman, I am an executive at a firm that develops Supply Chain software. I know a thing or two about supply and demand. So if some people want to whine and moan and say "I can't get mine fast enough" or "I won't pay a penny above MSRP" then I will say "I guess I want it more because I am willing to wait and willing to pay more." And - I don't consider the dealer an evil enemy! I consider them my trading partner to whom I am grateful that they can provide a product that I want at a price that I am willing to pay. That's for MY Sky, which I continue to eagerly await. Meanwhile, in the course of my travels, I happend to discover an available Sky... I thought this would be welcome news at a forum that seems to have a lot of people posting stuff like "I can't even place an order on a car right now" and "gosh, I want one so bad..." Silly me.

Sorry, but I believe that everybody deserves to be happy, and I'd like to see all people realize their dreams. So if I could tell a person who wanted a Sky where one was available, and help a dealer that had a Sky to hook up with a person that wanted to buy one - gosh! I thought that would have been a good thing for everybody!

But apparently not here. At this forum, dealers are evil. People who want to see others get their Skys must be slimy salesmen. And moderators here must prevent the useful sharing of information among all the little people.

I say again: I believe in the principles of Supply and Demand; I don't like censorship and over-regulation that shuts down business between providers and consumers looking to come to a win-win arrangement; And I certainly don't appreciate being called a liar and portrayed as a shill for big business.

Oh my God - I must be a Republican!
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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 03:24 AM
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In the forum rules thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KappaMan
[Rule]Commercial posting

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Supporting vendors pay for the considerable bandwidth charges incurred by the Forum in exchange for the right to use the Forum to market and promote their goods and/or services.

Their payments mean that the Forum is free to the rest of us.

Forum members are allowed to post For Sale threads to sell their own [Solstice] or parts their have bought for use on their own [Solstice], but they must not use the Forum to promote sales/services beyond that.

The Forum does not prohibit occasional and casual mention of non-supporting vendors. But those mentions cannot be so specific that they include addresses, phone numbers, sales contact names, e-mail addresses, URLs or links. And if the "casual" references become frequent, they will be considered as marketing and promotion.

You cannot, for instance, make a post telling other Forum members to buy their new [Solstice] from dealer XYZ when XYZ is a non-supporting dealer.

If, however, you post a thread about a new [Solstice] you have purchased and the thrust of the post is about the [Solstice], it would not be inappropriate to mention in the post that you were pleased by your dealings with XYZ dealer.
From what I understand, posting contact information and available stock is an opportunity that is supposed to be reserved for supporting dealers. If the mods allow that type of info to be posted (whether by the dealer or someone else) for non-supporting dealers, then the value of paying to support the costs of running the forum is diluted.

I'll step up and let you know that I alerted the mods to the post, but I didn't think it would be deleted without any explanation. There's a good chance you have a PM waiting for you since there's not one in this thread. I, and I'm sure others, appreciate your efforts and the desire to share useful information, but rules are rules and the volunteer mods have a tough job to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRinKY View Post
First, you shouldn't discount the utility of the jelly, but the KY in my name represents Kentucky, which is where I live.
Are you an organ donor?
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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 05:37 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks...

Thanks for the feedback, but I guess I just don't get it. As a Republican, when it comes to "supporting vendors," I guess I expected to see things the "Capitalist" way as opposed to the "Communist" way.

Capitalist way: If you pay to sponsor the site, you get something extra that you paid for. In other words, you can have a special "Supporting Vendors Showcase" that serves as a marketplace for your wares. Get a nice icon. How about a link in the header? You can have a page where you can make your best case as to why people should buy from you instead of somebody else. As a supporter, you can get a link back to your parent site. Whatever you like! You pay to support, so you get extra goodies and can reap the advantage by being prominently displayed and having your own "good guy" sponsor section of the page.

Communist Way: You are in power, so you don't let anybody else do anything against you or to support any competition. And, in the typical communist fashion, if you don't provide then nobody can have. So for example, if you make state-sponsored toilet paper but you can't make enough to keep up with demand, the state prohibits anybody else from making any either so that the state's inadequete efforts don't get replaced by some private enterprise that can get the job done.

That seems to be how it is here... Posts about available cars (and maybe someday parts and services) from "non-supporting dealers" are not allowed, and yet there is no section about available cars (or parts and services) that I could find that proclaim the wares of supporting dealers.

As a result, since the "supporting dealers" aren't posting that they have cars available, nobody can post about anybody else having cars available.

So, from the "supporting dealers" point of view, it is better that:
  • That desirous consumers don't get matched up with available cars, so that
  • Their competitors that they aren't actively competing with don't make sales that could bring business to their own local dealerships in terms of maintenance and ongoing support, and as a result
  • The spread of popularity of the car is stifled, and
  • The members that they are paying to support on the forum get annoyed that they can't share info in support of each other (isn't that what forums are for?)
  • And finally, make sure that as a supporter of this forum that you remain anonymous so that appreciative members that you support cannot reward you with their business as a token of their appreciation


What a unique paradigm! I believe this is a perfect example of an "everybody loses" business scenario, and those are usually very difficult to create without the direct involvement of the government. It must be innovation like this that keeps General Motors on top.
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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 08:03 AM
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you are correct.you have a small click of cluckers on this site.who don`t really have a life and i think they read 1984 for fun.welcome to the site,and keep on posting.gop,all the way.
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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdigiant
Thanks for the feedback, but I guess I just don't get it. As a Republican, when it comes to "supporting vendors," I guess I expected to see things the "Capitalist" way as opposed to the "Communist" way.

Capitalist way: If you pay to sponsor the site, you get something extra that you paid for. In other words, you can have a special "Supporting Vendors Showcase" that serves as a marketplace for your wares. Get a nice icon. How about a link in the header? You can have a page where you can make your best case as to why people should buy from you instead of somebody else. As a supporter, you can get a link back to your parent site. Whatever you like! You pay to support, so you get extra goodies and can reap the advantage by being prominently displayed and having your own "good guy" sponsor section of the page.

Communist Way: You are in power, so you don't let anybody else do anything against you or to support any competition. And, in the typical communist fashion, if you don't provide then nobody can have. So for example, if you make state-sponsored toilet paper but you can't make enough to keep up with demand, the state prohibits anybody else from making any either so that the state's inadequete efforts don't get replaced by some private enterprise that can get the job done.

That seems to be how it is here... Posts about available cars (and maybe someday parts and services) from "non-supporting dealers" are not allowed, and yet there is no section about available cars (or parts and services) that I could find that proclaim the wares of supporting dealers.

As a result, since the "supporting dealers" aren't posting that they have cars available, nobody can post about anybody else having cars available.

So, from the "supporting dealers" point of view, it is better that:
  • That desirous consumers don't get matched up with available cars, so that
  • Their competitors that they aren't actively competing with don't make sales that could bring business to their own local dealerships in terms of maintenance and ongoing support, and as a result
  • The spread of popularity of the car is stifled, and
  • The members that they are paying to support on the forum get annoyed that they can't share info in support of each other (isn't that what forums are for?)
  • And finally, make sure that as a supporter of this forum that you remain anonymous so that appreciative members that you support cannot reward you with their business as a token of their appreciation


What a unique paradigm! I believe this is a perfect example of an "everybody loses" business scenario, and those are usually very difficult to create without the direct involvement of the government. It must be innovation like this that keeps General Motors on top.

Why are you dragging General Motors in to this argument? This site is not in sponsored by or associated with GM. I was following your argument until you decided to throw the baby out with the bath water. Bad move.
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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 08:28 AM
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I never bought the argument at all, politically Capitalism is not a democracy.

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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 09:21 AM
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Badges? We don't need no stinking badges...

Get a clue and get over it. This is a private forum and the good Capitalist owners can make and enforce any rule they like. As a good Republican, I would have thought you would appreciate and embrace that concept.

Last edited by ggccg; 04-23-2006 at 12:28 PM.
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post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 10:46 AM
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This privately owned, funded, and operated site reserves all exclusive advertising rights on this forum to those companies, businesses, and persons who wish to become "supporting vendors and dealers." What they get for the supporting vendor/dealer fee which they pay is the right to advertise on this forum. To protect their paid for status, those organizations who do not wish to pay are not allowed to commercially advertise on the forum.

Does this help or hurt the community? You can be the judge of that. In the eyes of the forum moderating team and site owner, it HELPS the community because it raises the necessary money to keep the site open, pay for bandwidth use, storage space, server upkeep and upgrades, software upgrades, and a technical staff that deals with server/software problems, writes and maintains some custom software for tweaking the forum for our use, and other such expenses of operation. As forums grow, these operating expenses can quickly escalate into some very eye popping figures.

The system also allows for vendors and dealers to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with the forum and the enthusiasts that frequent the forum. This helps build their business and position in the community.

It works too. Yes, this is still a small and young forum which is just starting to grow it's supporting base. However, the site owner has many forums which operate very successfully in this fashion. Both for the vendors and dealers who support as well as the membership and community. One needs look no farther than Troy's www.corvetteforum.com which is the preeminent Corvette community on the internet by a long shot. It has tons of vendors, offering all kinds of products and services, many highly regarded supporting dealers who see a lot of business from their relationship with the site, and a community of members which is over 6 figures strong.

For the outsider who dislikes not being able to advertise for free on someone's private website, it may appear as if it is an anti community communist practice. However, for those who are well experienced in developing top notch online automotive comminities, the system works extremely well for all involved.
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post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 10:50 AM
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Keep posting John.
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post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 11:05 AM
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I am sorry, but i have to put in my 2 CENTS WORTH ON THIS ONE..... Why is it that whenever there are a SET OF RULES.... of any sort, THERE IS ALWAYS.. SOMEONE or a small group who wish to push the envelope??? As far as i am concerned and in my experiences... RULES ARE MADE FOR A SPECIFIC REASON.. whatever that reason may be to whomever made the rules!!! Rules are in place so there is a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD... no matter what the venue is. Very simple concept..... FOLLOW RULES AND PLAY NICE...There would be total chaos if all members were allowed to try to make up their own rules as they suit each individual... that is what makes this forum great..... A COMMUNITY....... There would be NO STRUCTURE, NO RHYME OR REASON TO ANY TOPICS ON HERE!!!!.. .. I may be blonde.. BUT.... i for one have layed down my own rules... IN MY OWN SPACE.... MY HOME.... This is NOT my space, so all i can do as a member is SUBMIT MY OPINION......I can ASK questions that i feel are important and comment on others opinions. This is a SAFE place to engage in conversation about a product we all love... LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY PLEASE..... Politics DO NOT belong here.... ......

.......... DISCLAIMER......... THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION..... SkyBaby-07





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post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 11:11 AM
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Sky Baby--- I vote for you. Well said!!!
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post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-23-2006, 11:32 AM
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What Fformula88 said is RIGHT ON.


jdigiant - you obviously missed this thread:
https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1939

It's titled "Commercial Posting" and was copied very closely from corvetteforum.com.

In case you don't want to click on the link, i'll repost it here, and highlight a few things:
Quote:
Originally Posted by COMMERCIAL POSTING RULES
Commercial posting

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Supporting vendors pay for the considerable bandwidth charges incurred by the Forum in exchange for the right to use the Forum to market and promote their goods and/or services.

Their payments mean that the Forum is free to the rest of us.

Forum members are allowed to post For Sale threads to sell their own [SKY] or parts their have bought for use on their own [SKY], but they must not use the Forum to promote sales/services beyond that.

The Forum does not prohibit occasional and casual mention of non-supporting vendors. But those mentions cannot be so specific that they include addresses, phone numbers, sales contact names, e-mail addresses, URLs or links. And if the "casual" references become frequent, they will be considered as marketing and promotion.

You cannot, for instance, make a post telling other Forum members to buy their new [SKY] from dealer XYZ when XYZ is a non-supporting dealer.

If, however, you post a thread about a new [SKY] you have purchased and the thrust of the post is about the [SKY], it would not be inappropriate to mention in the post that you were pleased by your dealings with XYZ dealer.

Members that are not supporting vendors but post contact information for commercial sale (for example, dealers that post the dealership name, number, e-mail, etc.) in a starting thread, a specific post, or their signature are subject to having their information deleted. Persistant or multiple posting of contact information will result in said member being banned from posting.

Additionally, if you are not a supporting vendor/dealer, you may NOT use your screenname (member ID) as a way of advertising. Please see section on member names. If you become a supporting vendor/dealer, you will be allowed to change your member ID/screenname at that time.

Contact Brentil (usually best through Private Message), for information on how to become a supporting vendor.
Now, I'd say that's pretty clear. While you see this as "helping the community", you are also mucking with how the "community" continues to exist and REMAIN FREE TO PARTICIPATE for anyone. You post something YOU think is innocent, then we have a bunch of people promoting products from non-supporting vendors, then non-supporting vendors get the idea and start posting promotions of their products (because this forum is anonymous)... and the whole idea of supporting vendors goes out the window.

TaylorMutts also had a good point - this site is not supported by or run by General Motors, so good information to heed.

glock919 - I don't know what your problem is, but anything ranting about "free speech" you jump in and put in your two cents and imply we here have no life - yet I see you on this site all the time, and you don't even own a SKY...

For your benefit, and YOURS ALONE, I'll repost an important point from the general forum rules (link available to the whole section in my signature).
It's a section called "Free Speech/Censorship, Appropriate and Inappropriate Posts" https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/sh...6144#post26144

Quote:
...God bless America, where we enjoy constitutionally protected rights.

Free speech, although not absolute, is one of those rights.

Being a member at SkyRoadster.com is not, however, a constitutionally protected right.

The Forum is a private enterprise and its owner has the right to establish rules of behavior for participants. Property rights are Constitutionally protected.

Participants who agree to follow Forum rules and then don’t sometimes find that their inappropriate posts have been deleted.

A pattern of such defiance of the Forum’s rules/guidelines can jeopardize a member’s posting privileges.
...
so get off your high horse, and if you don't have anything to contribute, might I suggest you lurk...?
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