ddmworks gt2781r turbo upgrade - Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-14-2019, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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ddmworks gt2781r turbo upgrade

hello, i have for sale my ddm turbo upgrade, only 8mil km. 900$
https://www.milanuncios.com/otros-re...-274680167.htm
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Fran del Amo View Post
hello, i have for sale my ddm turbo upgrade, only 8mil km. 900$
https://www.milanuncios.com/otros-re...-274680167.htm
Why, may I ask, are you selling it so soon?


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2007 2.4 Base
MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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hello, couse i sold my car like oem
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-26-2019, 05:36 PM
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Is this a bolt-on kit or does it need mods / additional parts to get up and running?
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 12:53 AM
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We have been trying to make mine work for over a year and half. You better have a great mechanic, a very good tuner. And some spare cash, maybe a lot of spare cash.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 03:22 AM
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I may be interested. Can you pm me more details? Does it have the suggested box as part of the kit?
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 12:47 AM
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dbs1 you have mail.
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-30-2019, 02:28 AM
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I knew when we first installed this set up, there was a problem. Not with the equipment, but the custom tune provided by Trifecta. I heard a terrible noise on the first drive. No one could access the tune, including DDM. We tried for almost 2 years to get it to work. The other day we went back to stock and had a consistent misfire on cylinder two. Turns out the top of the piston is broken. A lot of very talented people worked on this, but did not see the misfire on a regular basis, and I think the notification was turned off in the tune. We put the ECM back to stock and it continously threw codes for misfire on 2. Car still ran but started missing terribly..

I ordered a new LNF/LDK engine, it is supposed to be here tomorrow. We will re install the Base Trifecta tune for the stock engine, and hopefully I will have my car back. Also ordered a new 3 row aluminum radiator. Will most likely do the new front bumper with the splitters from Europe.

Wishing you luck with the sale.
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-30-2019, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by skersfan View Post
I knew when we first installed this set up, there was a problem. Not with the equipment, but the custom tune provided by Trifecta. I heard a terrible noise on the first drive. No one could access the tune, including DDM. We tried for almost 2 years to get it to work. The other day we went back to stock and had a consistent misfire on cylinder two. Turns out the top of the piston is broken. A lot of very talented people worked on this, but did not see the misfire on a regular basis, and I think the notification was turned off in the tune. We put the ECM back to stock and it continously threw codes for misfire on 2. Car still ran but started missing terribly..

I ordered a new LNF/LDK engine, it is supposed to be here tomorrow. We will re install the Base Trifecta tune for the stock engine, and hopefully I will have my car back. Also ordered a new 3 row aluminum radiator. Will most likely do the new front bumper with the splitters from Europe.

Wishing you luck with the sale.
Skersfan, do you have a picture of that piston? I have a feeling you suffered from the dreaded "piston chip" caused by an overheated cylinder that causes the ring gap to close and the ring to hang in the stroke eventually "chipping" the top of the piston. This "hang" gets read as knock in the scans and is why I always am looking for 0 KR. Old habit from the 3800 days. (Pic of my damaged Grand Prix 3800 attached for reference.)
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V.A.L. (#1108)
2007 2.4 Base
MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car
**Sold**

Max (#1547)
2007 TURBO 2.4
Too much to list here. See my Garage for details.

Last edited by Robotech; 10-30-2019 at 11:24 AM.
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-30-2019, 04:59 PM
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No pictures, we did it with a scope. You told me that the tune was a time bomb, unfortunately I think it was too late when you looked at it. Hopefully have it in by next weekend.

I think that explains the occasional puff of smoke coming from the engine. It seemed I was the only one to see it until about week or two ago. Curt was behind me and saw it. I think the tunes covered it up. I have learned my lesson. Car is too fun to drive to have it set for two years, and dumping thousands of dollars into it to find out what I expected from the first day.

Must be tough little boogers to withstand what we did to it for the last two years. I lost 6K in storage site and insurance for that period, not even considering every thing that we did to it, dragging it to Colorado and on and on. My guess and most likely pretty close, 20K to blow an engine in the first two minutes of operation.
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-31-2019, 12:03 PM
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Yea, the knock we were seeing was more than troubling. Would love to see what that piston looks like though. Would tell us a lot more.

With the Grand Prix's, a chipped piston was not the end of the world. Usually the chipped part would pass out the exhaust after bashing the spark plug and not cause any further issues. I had one pop on me and I pulled over, pulled the plug, straightened the grounding strap back out and eyeballed the gap, put it back in and drove for a few months like that. The iron block and heads probably had a lot to do with it being so forgiving of that. You just had to address your tune to fight that KR so it wouldn't happen again. When we rebuilt the engines we always would set the ring gap to the larger side of the OEM spec for this reason.

I just wonder if the Ecotecs with their aluminum blocks and heads are less tolerant of this kind of abuse. I have heard of this kind of failure with some of the LNFs but just not very often.


V.A.L. (#1108)
2007 2.4 Base
MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car
**Sold**

Max (#1547)
2007 TURBO 2.4
Too much to list here. See my Garage for details.
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-31-2019, 01:11 PM
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I have heard that on some LNF engines the ring end gaps were at the low end of the acceptable range which could result in the problem stated. Doesn't seem to afflict many stock engines but when you add a on-stock turbo it can become an issue. Kind of like playing engine roulette when you bolt that turbo on.

And skersfan - "No one could access the tune, including DDM" Of course they couldn't - that was a feature of the Trifecta tune, that it was not accessible to other tuners. Trifecta had tuned a lot of LNFs in Cobalts without problems and I was told that there was no issue applying that expertise when Vince tuned my Solstice (the first one they had tuned). And there wasn't, but then I was lucky in not having an engine with tight ring end gaps or I could have been in your spot. Like engine lottery! Sorry your roll came up snake eyes!

Robo, I think you are right that the sound from the chewed piston is diagnosed by the ECM as ping. The ring gap issue did come up even on some stock engines, but when you apply extra heat to dissipate with a larger turbo, the ones that were marginal in stock form became dodgy and probably had a higher proportion of issues as a result.

I always cross my fingers when I go to the US and have to run lower octane gas than my car was tuned for and I avoid full throttle runs as I don't want to push my luck. Pretty confident that the ECM will take care of actual ping by backing off the timing, but one never knows just what end gap you have unless you tear down the engine and replace the pistons (I seriously thought about a set of Wiseco pistons but was shooting for an optimal set up without going inside the engine).
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-31-2019, 01:36 PM
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What kind of KR numbers were you seeing with the chewed piston?

Also where did the LDK bottom in come from and how much? Is there any difference between that and the LNF bottom end (basically asking if any changes need to be made to it to get it to bolt up).
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-31-2019, 04:07 PM
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I have heard that on some LNF engines the ring end gaps were at the low end of the acceptable range which could result in the problem stated. Doesn't seem to afflict many stock engines but when you add a on-stock turbo it can become an issue. Kind of like playing engine roulette when you bolt that turbo on.

Robo, I think you are right that the sound from the chewed piston is diagnosed by the ECM as ping. The ring gap issue did come up even on some stock engines, but when you apply extra heat to dissipate with a larger turbo, the ones that were marginal in stock form became dodgy and probably had a higher proportion of issues as a result.

I always cross my fingers when I go to the US and have to run lower octane gas than my car was tuned for and I avoid full throttle runs as I don't want to push my luck. Pretty confident that the ECM will take care of actual ping by backing off the timing, but one never knows just what end gap you have unless you tear down the engine and replace the pistons (I seriously thought about a set of Wiseco pistons but was shooting for an optimal set up without going inside the engine).

It's a matter of controlling intake charge temperatures...those are the killers unless the KR numbers are really high. Any additional heat in the cylinder above OEM that sticks around can expand those rings more than normal. That's what causes that ring "hang" which is detected as KR. Retarding timing and cooling the intake charge can eliminate that but that's why some cars can make more power without KR than other cars. And you are correct in that the only way to know where your rings are set is to tear apart the engine. For most, this isn't worth the trouble. LOL

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What kind of KR numbers were you seeing with the chewed piston?

Also where did the LDK bottom in come from and how much? Is there any difference between that and the LNF bottom end (basically asking if any changes need to be made to it to get it to bolt up).
LDK blocks are different from LNF blocks but are an improvement. They are stronger blocks. The block on my new LE5 is an LDK block. The LDK blocks are Gen III blocks. The LNFs and LE5s in our cars use weaker Gen II blocks that have bigger coolant passages from Gen I blocks and these passages can break under higher horsepower applications. I got my LDK block LE5 from Performance Auto Werks when they built my short block with forged internals. It wasn't cheap but it's perhaps the strongest Ecotec builds you can put in our cars (an LDK LNF would be stronger since you can't get an LE5 forged crank and the LNF has a forged crank stock).

We were seeing 6-8 degrees of KR (though I think KR is a percentage number, I learned it when it was degrees...or at least everyone referred to it in degrees...) and that is WAY too high. 0-1 is acceptable so long as it blips and quickly decays. 2-3 isn't bad but you want to track down what is causing it and get rid of it. 4+ and I worry so seeing 6-8 was really freaking me out.

And before someone says "Knock won't kill an engine" this may be true but as was mentioned, this "ring hang" issue is registered as knock and it WILL kill an engine. I learned with the 3800 platform that all knock was bad because real knock in the 3800 wasn't knock, but this "ring hang" and thus was something you needed to address before you chipped a piston. I think almost every modified 3800 chipped a piston sometime during it's life. Our cars seem to not be so bad but maybe it's because we don't have as many people modifying them without doing full engine swaps.


V.A.L. (#1108)
2007 2.4 Base
MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car
**Sold**

Max (#1547)
2007 TURBO 2.4
Too much to list here. See my Garage for details.
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-31-2019, 04:14 PM
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JohnWR, The tune was purchased thru DDM. It was a custom tune for the kit I bought. I was told to bring the car 1200 miles to Colorado so he could fix it. I was told he could not access his own tune. Told to buy a new ECM, which was not available for ten days. No one could access it. I paid for a different tune at the National. Not Trifecta, we got it to run, but never correctly.

The LNF/LDK engine has arrived, still in the crate. I doubt that I am even going to tear the old engine down. I just want to be over this. It was referred by Hoosier GXP who has purchased several of them and installed in his restoration cars. Supposed to have a stronger bottom end. Not going to find out, as I am not taking it apart to see. I am over the modified crap. Want a dependable car to drive on weekends and cruises.

Curt may decide to tear it apart and see what happened. Really don't care, water under the bridge. Two very miserable years of my life and a lot of money wasted. Lesson learned.
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