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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 02:09 PM
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Yup!

Mine has the typical MAP error code which throws it into a different tune. The wierd thing about it is that my car was doing this random thing before the CEL where it would jump from 12 degrees advance to 6 and back after 5000rpms. That was verified by Trifecta. So after the CEL it put it into a different tune where it doesn't do that, and the car pulls really hard actually....It's strange as all.

Regarding the plate....Yeah that plate came standard on my 2007 Redline which allowed it to bolt to the torque arm. That plate definitely wasn't integral on the diff.
What is the code that puts you into a different tune?

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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MattM View Post
Yup!

Mine has the typical MAP error code which throws it into a different tune. The wierd thing about it is that my car was doing this random thing before the CEL where it would jump from 12 degrees advance to 6 and back after 5000rpms. That was verified by Trifecta. So after the CEL it put it into a different tune where it doesn't do that, and the car pulls really hard actually....It's strange as all.

Regarding the plate....Yeah that plate came standard on my 2007 Redline which allowed it to bolt to the torque arm. That plate definitely wasn't integral on the diff.
What is the code that puts you into a different tune?
It's the P0107.
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MattM View Post
Yup!

Mine has the typical MAP error code which throws it into a different tune. The wierd thing about it is that my car was doing this random thing before the CEL where it would jump from 12 degrees advance to 6 and back after 5000rpms. That was verified by Trifecta. So after the CEL it put it into a different tune where it doesn't do that, and the car pulls really hard actually....It's strange as all.

Regarding the plate....Yeah that plate came standard on my 2007 Redline which allowed it to bolt to the torque arm. That plate definitely wasn't integral on the diff.
I've not heard that an error throws you into a different tune but rather triggers certain modifiers that GM refers to as a "safe" mode...and there are at least a couple different ones pending on what the error is. The LE5 has one (kinda) that will shut off your AC Compressor if your coolant temps are over 250...not a different tune but a modifier.

The one I know of on the LNF is the one that opens the waste gate actuator solenoid so that boost control is handled completely by the actuator spring and boost level is kept to 6 psi or less. KR is a similar kind of modifier where timing is reduced based on KR level.

What it sounds like you are talking about is like the Trifecta "switch" between two tunes. Does this mean the LNF ECM has more than 2 tune options within it?


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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 02:31 PM
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There is no mention of an alternate tune in the service manual, and (oddly) no indication of what action that fault will cause.
The fault itself is a sensor reading that is out of range low, indicating either a bad sensor or a wiring problem.

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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 02:34 PM
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There is no mention of an alternate tune in the service manual, and (oddly) no indication of what action that fault will cause.
The fault itself is a sensor reading that is out of range low, indicating either a bad sensor or a wiring problem.
Yea that certainly wouldn't be a "different tune". LOL


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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 03:19 PM
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Not a tune per se but different perameters/tables. That is a fact. Was also catalogued be trifecta.
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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 06:36 PM
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Not a tune per se but different perameters/tables. That is a fact. .......
Isn't that what a "tune" is? ie: Changes to the lookup tables.

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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MattM View Post
Not a tune per se but different perameters/tables. That is a fact. Was also catalogued be trifecta.
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Originally Posted by JohnWR View Post
Isn't that what a "tune" is? ie: Changes to the lookup tables.
Actually no. ...and yes...but no. A tune is a change to the values in the lookup tables and a tune will access different tables and apply their values under different conditions but it's not like the ECM is rewriting the values in the tables when there is an error nor would these tables that are accessed only under certain conditions be considered a "separate" or "additional" tune.

A tune doesn't add tables to the structure of the ECM, it only changes the values in the fields of those tables. Once those values are set in the tune, the ECM cannot change them. It can only modify the end result it calculates with them using other values that it has been programmed to use. These values are still a part of the same tune. So while the ECM can modify a calculated value based on conditions, it's applying the set modifier to a set value.

For example. 2+2 =4. The first 2 is the base value. The second 2 is the modifier. You could have 2+2+5-9=0 where the second 2, the 5 and the 9 are all modifiers. The base 2 stays the same but the modifiers, and the number of them, changes. The base number and each individual modifier would be from different tables (so the last example we're talking 4 different tables).

And when we receive an error code that changes how the car runs, this is information that is in the logic of the programming itself. There is a table that can turn these error codes on and off (so you could turn off error code P0107) and if you have this error with the error code turned off, if the programming is setup to ignore that code if it is not logged or set to turn on your CEL (in other words, turned off) then it my not cause the engine to run any differently when the problem occurs. I've never played with that kind of stuff and for good reason.

If you get an error code and it causes a limp mode, that is part of the ECU's programming. It's there regardless of what "tune" you put in the car. That's the logic of the programming...if X happens do Y in Z way. Now maybe you reprogram it (tune it) to if X happens do Y in W way...but it's still going to do Y even if doing it W way is no different than not doing Y at all.

For instance, it could be that "if you set P0107 (this is X) then you reduce boost (this is Y) by 100% (this is Z)" meaning all boost control is now no longer managed by the ECM, it's just going to let the spring handle it because it's not going to add any more boost than the spring will allow. You could (in theory...not sure if this is how it all works with the LNF's computer) say "if you set P0107 (still X) then you reduce boost (still Y) by 0% (Which is now W)". It's still "reducing" boost but since your value is now 0% rather than 100%, it's not really going to reduce boost. Your tune has changed the reduction percentage from 100% to 0% but the logic of the ECM's programming is still the same...only the value have changed.

The values are what a tune changes. Nothing more.

Now, I don't think this is how the logic of the LNFs limp mode works. I think it works more along the lines of "If these things happen, set the waste gate solenoid to it's fail safe setting which will release the ECM's ability to control boost to the actuator spring only." I don't think there are any values that can be changed with this other than error code reporting.

All this, also, would be a modifier. The value for Y in our cases...the amount of boost...is determined to be a certain pulse width of the solenoid as calculated by the ECM as to what is necessary to maintain a particular boost level. That's your base value in the tune. The Z or W value is a value that modifies the value of Y to achieve a desired result under a particular set of conditions. Z or W will not be applied as a modifier if X doesn't happen.

This is how Knock Retard (KR) works. It's exactly how KR works. KR is the modifier. If the knock sensor see's knock it calculates how strong it is (this is the new X) and then modifies the base spark value (the new Y) by reducing it a certain percentage expressed as KR (our Z). So KR is the percentage the base spark will be reduced when knock is detected. You can reprogram how aggressive KR kicks in and how long it takes to go away (decay) in a tune but it will always want to kick in and it will always have a decay...even though it is possible to basically 0 these out (almost no kicking in and it immediately goes away...very bad to set it up this way...just sayin'. Don't try this at home.)


V.A.L. (#1108)
2007 2.4 Base
MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car
**Sold**

Max (#1547)
2007 TURBO 2.4
Too much to list here. See my Garage for details.

Last edited by Robotech; 10-16-2019 at 07:31 PM.
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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 10:12 PM
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Actually no. ...and yes...but no. A tune is a change to the values in the lookup tables and a tune will access different tables and apply their values under different conditions but it's not like the ECM is rewriting the values in the tables when there is an error nor would these tables that are accessed only under certain conditions be considered a "separate" or "additional" tune.

A tune doesn't add tables to the structure of the ECM, it only changes the values in the fields of those tables. Once those values are set in the tune, the ECM cannot change them. It can only modify the end result it calculates with them using other values that it has been programmed to use. These values are still a part of the same tune. So while the ECM can modify a calculated value based on conditions, it's applying the set modifier to a set value.

For example. 2+2 =4. The first 2 is the base value. The second 2 is the modifier. You could have 2+2+5-9=0 where the second 2, the 5 and the 9 are all modifiers. The base 2 stays the same but the modifiers, and the number of them, changes. The base number and each individual modifier would be from different tables (so the last example we're talking 4 different tables).

And when we receive an error code that changes how the car runs, this is information that is in the logic of the programming itself. There is a table that can turn these error codes on and off (so you could turn off error code P0107) and if you have this error with the error code turned off, if the programming is setup to ignore that code if it is not logged or set to turn on your CEL (in other words, turned off) then it my not cause the engine to run any differently when the problem occurs. I've never played with that kind of stuff and for good reason.

If you get an error code and it causes a limp mode, that is part of the ECU's programming. It's there regardless of what "tune" you put in the car. That's the logic of the programming...if X happens do Y in Z way. Now maybe you reprogram it (tune it) to if X happens do Y in W way...but it's still going to do Y even if doing it W way is no different than not doing Y at all.

For instance, it could be that "if you set P0107 (this is X) then you reduce boost (this is Y) by 100% (this is Z)" meaning all boost control is now no longer managed by the ECM, it's just going to let the spring handle it because it's not going to add any more boost than the spring will allow. You could (in theory...not sure if this is how it all works with the LNF's computer) say "if you set P0107 (still X) then you reduce boost (still Y) by 0% (Which is now W)". It's still "reducing" boost but since your value is now 0% rather than 100%, it's not really going to reduce boost. Your tune has changed the reduction percentage from 100% to 0% but the logic of the ECM's programming is still the same...only the value have changed.

The values are what a tune changes. Nothing more.

Now, I don't think this is how the logic of the LNFs limp mode works. I think it works more along the lines of "If these things happen, set the waste gate solenoid to it's fail safe setting which will release the ECM's ability to control boost to the actuator spring only." I don't think there are any values that can be changed with this other than error code reporting.

All this, also, would be a modifier. The value for Y in our cases...the amount of boost...is determined to be a certain pulse width of the solenoid as calculated by the ECM as to what is necessary to maintain a particular boost level. That's your base value in the tune. The Z or W value is a value that modifies the value of Y to achieve a desired result under a particular set of conditions. Z or W will not be applied as a modifier if X doesn't happen.

This is how Knock Retard (KR) works. It's exactly how KR works. KR is the modifier. If the knock sensor see's knock it calculates how strong it is (this is the new X) and then modifies the base spark value (the new Y) by reducing it a certain percentage expressed as KR (our Z). So KR is the percentage the base spark will be reduced when knock is detected. You can reprogram how aggressive KR kicks in and how long it takes to go away (decay) in a tune but it will always want to kick in and it will always have a decay...even though it is possible to basically 0 these out (almost no kicking in and it immediately goes away...very bad to set it up this way...just sayin'. Don't try this at home.)
This is definitely the perfect answer! It is also absolutely correct! There are hundreds of tables in the ECU. It's likely that this code throws the ECU paramaters into utilizing different tables and modifiers for how it runs. Regardless, it corrected the wierd issue I was having with my spark advance problems. Trifecta believes that this means the MAP sensor was probably malfunctioning for a while (causing the wierdness I've widely posted about) but it wasn't bad enough to throw a code. This would explain why the CEL caused it to stop hesitating above 5000 rpms at WOT.
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