P0299 - Turbo Needs Replaced? - Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum
Technical Saturn Sky Discussion Technical and performance aspects of the Saturn Sky Roadster. Sky Problems | Solutions | Repairs | Recalls | Tech Bulletins | Tech Tips | In the Manual Basic Tech Advertisement

User Tag List

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-11-2019, 09:07 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: York Haven, PA
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
P0299 - Turbo Needs Replaced?

So, recently I had my 2008 Sky Redline on a road trip from VA to PA doing mostly highway driving with a lot of weaving through traffic and it was a nice 95 degrees out all day. So, about 4 hours into the drive I lost almost all boost, 1-2 psi at most and so I drove slower and stopped off at the next rest stop. I read the code (check engine light wasn't on yet) and it was P0299 pending. Later in the rest of the hour drive home I had low boost and the check engine light eventually came on for P0299. This is the first thing that has failed on the car (other than issues with the top) so this is uncharted territory for me.

So, I took my car to the local Chevy dealer that I normally go to (Thornton Cheverolet, Manchester, PA) and they declared that I have a bad turbo and also need a new exhaust manifold, oil lines, and return hoses. So, this sounded bad to me, but if I'm going to pay $4k at this point then a buddy and me are just going to do the RPM Motorsports stage 3 upgrade. So, they put my car back together and gave her back.. and since then I've driven her for a few days and she's driving like normal, 14psi normally, no smoke, no weird sounds..

So, is there a chance that I just overheated the turbo on the drive in hot weather and everything is okay now? Is the turbo going to fail imminently? Should I get a 2nd opinion?
Forcefedsc2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-11-2019, 01:22 PM
Super Moderator
 
Robotech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 10,843
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1760 Post(s)
Garage
So a few observations...

I will say you were smart in not letting that dealership work on the car. If the turbo is bad, then why change out oil lines and water lines? If oil got in the water (or water in the oil) then there are bigger issues. If there is no water in the oil (or visa versa) then there is no need to change out those lines UNLESS one is damaged. Even then, you only need to change that ONE line. The chances of all four going bad all at once would be so astronomically improbable you have a better shot of winning the lottery...twice.

Exhaust manifolds can crack and they can cause issues with the turbo. I would have had them show you where the crack is before they change anything. If the crack is in the divider inside the manifold where the turbo bolts on to the manifold, this is totally normal, affects nothing, and I have yet to see an LNF exhaust manifold that is used without the crack.

Obviously a bad turbo can cause low boost especialy the levels you're talking about, but when a turbo goes "bad", it's done. Bolting it back up isn't going to make it work again. The bearings inside get sloppy, air leaks past them, and you have almost no boost, usually oil somewhere it shouldn't be, and usually smoke in the exhaust.

Now that I've covered the major issues they said were wrong but probably weren't, let me hypothisize what really happened.

That error code and your symptoms give a strong indication that you had a boost leak somewhere. The Engine Control Module (ECM) has two sensors that can detect boost. These are Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensors. One is located on the pipe that runs from the intercooler to the throttle body on the driver's side of the engine bay. The other is located on top of the intake manifold. Only these two sensors would be able to tell the ECM that the pressure level they are reading is lower than what the ECM knows it should be. If the ECM is getting a pressure reading less from these sensors (and really it's the one in the intake manifold the ECM is listening too...the other one is also a temp sensor and the ECM only reads the temp off that one) than what it expects, then it sets that code you saw.

Now, the only place in your system where you will see boost starts at the turbo (naturally), goes through the hot side charge pipe (silver pipe on the passenger's side of the engine bay), to the intercooler, then through the hot side charge pipe (where your first MAP sensor is), to the throttle body, into the intake manifold, and finally the cylinders themselves. If you have a leak ANYWHERE in those areas, you will loose boost.

We already covered how a turbo can leak and not make boost so I'll skip that. Also, a leak in the throttle body or intake manifold would be extremely unlikely. I haven't heard of one developing in those locations yet.

The pipes themselves would have to be physically punctured to leak and I've NEVER seen that happen outside the car being involved in a major accident. However, the silicone couplers that attach the pipes to the turbo, intercooler and throttle body...THOSE are usually your number one location for a leak. The clamps that hold them on (especially the OEM ones) if they are not tightened enough can come off or allow air to slip by causing a leak. If you heard a POP of some sort when you lost boost, chances are it was one of these couplers. Each coupler has two clamps (obviously) and there are four couplers so there are 8 places you could have an issue.

The OEM intercoolers CAN develope leaks but this isn't super common (but common enough) and happens almost exclusively to cars who have turned up the boost to make more power (even with the tune from GM Performance Parts or GMPP). Again, once the intercooler starts to leak, it leaks. At 14 psi, you are WAY under those boost levels known to cause the intercooler to fail. Factory stock boost levels usually only get to the 18 psi range. Tuned cars will see 20-25 psi and it is at these levels where we have seen some OEM intercoolers fail.

There is, however, one other component that can cause this error. This is your waste gate actuator solenoid. This solenoid is bolted to the front of the turbo and has three vacuum lines attached to it. The ECM controls this solenoid to regulate your boost levels. IF this solenoid fails, your boost levels will drop. HOWEVER, they will NOT go to 1-2 psi. They will drop to 4-6 psi. The spring in the actuator this solenoid controls will mechanically control boost pressure up to this level. To go above this level, the ECM needs to control the solenoid. This is why when the solenoid fails, it releases control of the actuator (defaults to open on failure) to only the mechanical spring pressure. Thus, in your case because you dropped to a boost level below that regulated by the actuator, I don't think this solenoid was your issue...along with the fact that once it fails, it fails. It wouldn't start working and regulating boost pressure again.

So the big clue as to what I think happened is this:

Quote:
So, they put my car back together and gave her back.. and since then I've driven her for a few days and she's driving like normal
This sounds to me like the took the car apart to diagnose the issue and when they put it back together, the problem was gone. This would lead me to believe one of your couplers developed a leak and when they put everything back together, they fixed the leak.

If the problem comes back again, go around and check the tightness on all those hose clamps for the charge pipes. Chances are you'll find one not seated or a little loose. You can crank those things down SUPER tight without harming anything. Usually I'll tighten them until you can't tighten them further.


V.A.L. (#1108)
2007 2.4 Base
MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car
**Sold**

Max (#1547)
2007 TURBO 2.4
Too much to list here. See my Garage for details.

Last edited by Robotech; 10-11-2019 at 06:17 PM.
Robotech is offline  
post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-11-2019, 05:39 PM
Member
 
BlueRL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: In a light house on the south Texas coast
Posts: 703
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 288 Post(s)
Garage
This is an awesome diagnoastic that I will save for the future. Someday I will need it. Thank You.

On this subject, I have a question. I havent been driving mine for 7 months and just got it back on the road. Maybe my memory is failing, but I am only 83 so dont really suspect that .....LOL. But I dont remember being able to hear the turbo whine except at high speeds. Now I hear it all the time. Is this a portent of evil to come?????

Jim Isbell....2008 Sky Redline

"I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees" Gen Emiliano Zapata
BlueRL is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-11-2019, 06:06 PM
Senior Member
 
TomatoSoup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 3,868
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 508 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRL View Post
On this subject, I have a question. I havent been driving mine for 7 months and just got it back on the road. Maybe my memory is failing, but I am only 83 so dont really suspect that .....LOL. But I dont remember being able to hear the turbo whine except at high speeds. Now I hear it all the time. Is this a portent of evil to come?????
I cannot hear any turbo whine from the in my car, so if your sound IS from the turbo, that's probably not good.

BUT. Are you sure it's coming from the turbo and not just a radio ground (or other) issue causing a whine from your speakers? You'll probably have to pull the radio an/or Monsoon fuse(es) to be sure they are off, to verify.

Owner of "Campbelle", a Brazen 2008 GXP ... with mods piling up...
TomatoSoup is offline  
post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-11-2019, 06:11 PM
Member
 
BlueRL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: In a light house on the south Texas coast
Posts: 703
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 288 Post(s)
Garage
Now you have me there. When I heard it this morning I thought it WAS from the radio. But the radio was off. If being off wont kill it then maybe it is from the speakers.

Jim Isbell....2008 Sky Redline

"I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees" Gen Emiliano Zapata
BlueRL is offline  
post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-11-2019, 06:20 PM
Super Moderator
 
Robotech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 10,843
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1760 Post(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRL View Post
This is an awesome diagnoastic that I will save for the future. Someday I will need it. Thank You.

On this subject, I have a question. I havent been driving mine for 7 months and just got it back on the road. Maybe my memory is failing, but I am only 83 so dont really suspect that .....LOL. But I dont remember being able to hear the turbo whine except at high speeds. Now I hear it all the time. Is this a portent of evil to come?????
To my knowledge, you should only hear turbo whine when you're building boost. It may not be turbo whine you're hearing or it could be a precursor of something to come in the turbo.


V.A.L. (#1108)
2007 2.4 Base
MagnaFlow dual outlet, quad tip exhaust test car
**Sold**

Max (#1547)
2007 TURBO 2.4
Too much to list here. See my Garage for details.
Robotech is offline  
post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-12-2019, 10:15 AM
Senior Member
 
TomatoSoup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 3,868
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 508 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRL View Post
Now you have me there. When I heard it this morning I thought it WAS from the radio. But the radio was off. If being off wont kill it then maybe it is from the speakers.
No the radio/Monsoon amps are never really 'off' (that's where your chimes/warnings come from). You'll need to pull fuses. I know the Radio fuse is in the BCM in the footwell. The Monsoon is too, probably.

Owner of "Campbelle", a Brazen 2008 GXP ... with mods piling up...
TomatoSoup is offline  
post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-12-2019, 10:19 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 308
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
You can get a new LDK block with LNF head and brand new KO4 turbo from ZZP for like $3000....why pay a dealership $4k just to replace the turbo???? If you really want to go big or go home, you can spend $4k with them and get the EFR turbo too. I wouldn't let the dealer touch your car to be honest. Dealers are good for warranty work only...and hard stuff I don't want to do like WP on these cars...LOL That's it. I would do an entire motor on my own....but not the WP..... Does that make sense??? LOL
The_Ghost is offline  
post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-12-2019, 12:31 PM
Member
 
BlueRL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: In a light house on the south Texas coast
Posts: 703
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 288 Post(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomatoSoup View Post
No the radio/Monsoon amps are never really 'off' (that's where your chimes/warnings come from). You'll need to pull fuses. I know the Radio fuse is in the BCM in the footwell. The Monsoon is too, probably.
Thanks for that info. It was probably not the turbo. It sounded like ignition whine in the radio but since the radio was off I jumped to the worst conclusion.

Jim Isbell....2008 Sky Redline

"I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees" Gen Emiliano Zapata
BlueRL is offline  
post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-13-2019, 01:59 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: York Haven, PA
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robotech View Post
So a few observations...

I will say you were smart in not letting that dealership work on the car. If the turbo is bad, then why change out oil lines and water lines? If oil got in the water (or water in the oil) then there are bigger issues. If there is no water in the oil (or visa versa) then there is no need to change out those lines UNLESS one is damaged. Even then, you only need to change that ONE line. The chances of all four going bad all at once would be so astronomically improbable you have a better shot of winning the lottery...twice.

Exhaust manifolds can crack and they can cause issues with the turbo. I would have had them show you where the crack is before they change anything. If the crack is in the divider inside the manifold where the turbo bolts on to the manifold, this is totally normal, affects nothing, and I have yet to see an LNF exhaust manifold that is used without the crack.

Obviously a bad turbo can cause low boost especialy the levels you're talking about, but when a turbo goes "bad", it's done. Bolting it back up isn't going to make it work again. The bearings inside get sloppy, air leaks past them, and you have almost no boost, usually oil somewhere it shouldn't be, and usually smoke in the exhaust.

Now that I've covered the major issues they said were wrong but probably weren't, let me hypothisize what really happened.

That error code and your symptoms give a strong indication that you had a boost leak somewhere. The Engine Control Module (ECM) has two sensors that can detect boost. These are Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensors. One is located on the pipe that runs from the intercooler to the throttle body on the driver's side of the engine bay. The other is located on top of the intake manifold. Only these two sensors would be able to tell the ECM that the pressure level they are reading is lower than what the ECM knows it should be. If the ECM is getting a pressure reading less from these sensors (and really it's the one in the intake manifold the ECM is listening too...the other one is also a temp sensor and the ECM only reads the temp off that one) than what it expects, then it sets that code you saw.

Now, the only place in your system where you will see boost starts at the turbo (naturally), goes through the hot side charge pipe (silver pipe on the passenger's side of the engine bay), to the intercooler, then through the hot side charge pipe (where your first MAP sensor is), to the throttle body, into the intake manifold, and finally the cylinders themselves. If you have a leak ANYWHERE in those areas, you will loose boost.

We already covered how a turbo can leak and not make boost so I'll skip that. Also, a leak in the throttle body or intake manifold would be extremely unlikely. I haven't heard of one developing in those locations yet.

The pipes themselves would have to be physically punctured to leak and I've NEVER seen that happen outside the car being involved in a major accident. However, the silicone couplers that attach the pipes to the turbo, intercooler and throttle body...THOSE are usually your number one location for a leak. The clamps that hold them on (especially the OEM ones) if they are not tightened enough can come off or allow air to slip by causing a leak. If you heard a POP of some sort when you lost boost, chances are it was one of these couplers. Each coupler has two clamps (obviously) and there are four couplers so there are 8 places you could have an issue.

The OEM intercoolers CAN develope leaks but this isn't super common (but common enough) and happens almost exclusively to cars who have turned up the boost to make more power (even with the tune from GM Performance Parts or GMPP). Again, once the intercooler starts to leak, it leaks. At 14 psi, you are WAY under those boost levels known to cause the intercooler to fail. Factory stock boost levels usually only get to the 18 psi range. Tuned cars will see 20-25 psi and it is at these levels where we have seen some OEM intercoolers fail.

There is, however, one other component that can cause this error. This is your waste gate actuator solenoid. This solenoid is bolted to the front of the turbo and has three vacuum lines attached to it. The ECM controls this solenoid to regulate your boost levels. IF this solenoid fails, your boost levels will drop. HOWEVER, they will NOT go to 1-2 psi. They will drop to 4-6 psi. The spring in the actuator this solenoid controls will mechanically control boost pressure up to this level. To go above this level, the ECM needs to control the solenoid. This is why when the solenoid fails, it releases control of the actuator (defaults to open on failure) to only the mechanical spring pressure. Thus, in your case because you dropped to a boost level below that regulated by the actuator, I don't think this solenoid was your issue...along with the fact that once it fails, it fails. It wouldn't start working and regulating boost pressure again.

So the big clue as to what I think happened is this:

Quote:
So, they put my car back together and gave her back.. and since then I've driven her for a few days and she's driving like normal
This sounds to me like the took the car apart to diagnose the issue and when they put it back together, the problem was gone. This would lead me to believe one of your couplers developed a leak and when they put everything back together, they fixed the leak.

If the problem comes back again, go around and check the tightness on all those hose clamps for the charge pipes. Chances are you'll find one not seated or a little loose. You can crank those things down SUPER tight without harming anything. Usually I'll tighten them until you can't tighten them further.
Thanks! This may be the best post I ever seen. I have no additional info at this time but I'll follow up when I do.
Forcefedsc2 is offline  
Reply

  Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum > Saturn Sky Discussion > Technical Saturn Sky Discussion

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome