UPDATED 12/31/19 GM Issues a Recall of the Passenger Presence Sensor! - Page 26 - Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum
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post #376 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by skersfan View Post
Robo did a great job on this, and will help a lot of people who have spent a lot of money on fixing their cars. But it will have an affect on those of us in California. I just checked with DMV, any car with an open Safety Recall, can not be registered in the state of California. Meaning if you sell your car to a California resident and he tries to register it, it will not be allowed until they receive a (Orange clearance Card) from the dealership, stating the recall has been done. If GM drags their feet on developing a repair/replacement for a year or so, could be a problem for some.

I plan on selling my Mallett this spring/summer, so it eliminates residents of California somewhat.

I am not sure if reregistering is affected, as I just got my Skpel stuff back, before the letter hit. I have to register the Mallett in the next month. If they reject it, I will let you know.
I can't find any info on the CA DMV site that supports this for a "safety" recall. For "emissions" recalls yes, but not safety.

However, I did find some proposed bills and some "expert" opinions and basically they all said the same thing, if there is a reasonable excuse for why it hasn't been done...specifically a lack of parts availability...you can get a temporary registration from the DMV. It is a Federal law that car dealers cannot sell a car with an incomplete recall but again, there are provisions I'm sure. When I bought my car it was sold without the ignition switch recall being completed. At the time, it would take 2 months to get the parts. Thus my dealer was allowed to sell it, I could register it, and no one said boo about it. There was a Mercedes dealership that had a Sky and wouldn't sell it to ME without the recall being fixed and when they found out it would take two months, they decided to sell it at auction rather than to me...which I found odd since they would still be "selling" it.

Contact your local DMV office but I have a feeling you can still sell and register your cars with incomplete recalls so long as there is a reasonable excuse for it.

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Originally Posted by skersfan View Post
I really do not think either are accurate, too many wrecked cars with no deployment of the passenger air bag. I would guess now I have looked at 2000 wrecked Skys and Solstice. Only two had passenger air bag deployed, possibly 3. Numbers just do not jive in my opinion. Hoosier has looked at far more than me. He has seen 2 or 3 deployed, and most likely the same vehicle. I have said many times and will continue to say it. Do not trust it, drive like it is not there. GM is not going to admit to it not working, ever.
Like I mentioned on the phone, the absence of data is not justify the speculation of data.

Questions like "How many of those wrecked cars had passengers?" and "Was the Passenger Sensing System (PSS) mat functioning?" play a role because THOSE accidents can't be included. The first shouldn't have a passenger airbag deployed and the second is attributed to a known fault that is FINALLY being addressed.

In the few reports I could find on accidents involving a fatality and a Kappa, there were 8 total and of those 2 had passengers. In those 2 accidents, 1 was a roll over and the other was the Kappa striking a pedestrian (who was the fatality) and no occupants of the Kappa were injured. In both cases, there was no airbag deployment nor should there have been.

The fact is, you should never drive your car with the expectation of the air bag saving you. That's just foolish and I don't believe anyone does unless it is an excuse for not wearing a seatbelt...which, in turn, is even more foolish considering the data we now have on the overall odds of surviving a crash with a seatbelt and without. You should drive a car with the mindset of avoiding accidents at all costs and hoping that if you fail that, that the car's safety devices...ALL of it's safety devices, keep you from being injured or killed. Even with an airbag system that is fully functional, there can be accidents that find that one set of circumstances (roll over comes to mind) that just won't trigger the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnWR View Post
If the airbag telltale has indicated that the airbag was active when it really wasn't, changing the sensor will not fix the problem. I have done a lot of experimenting with the sensor and how it affects airbag operation, and can tell you absolutely that the sensor does not determine whether the telltale indicates ON or OFF. The airbag SDM (Sensing and Diagnostics Module) does that, and it is not part of the seat sensor. The seat sensor does have the outputs that actually operate the lights, but they do it strictly based on what the SDM commands.

The only way that a failed seat sensor would result in a failure to deploy the airbag without prior warning would be if it happened to fail moments before the impact that would have triggered an airbag deployment.
My research into the matter dovetails with your technical observations JohnWR. I believe though what you are saying is the SDM has the final word as to whether the passenger airbag is armed or not and while the seat sensor doesn't do that directly, it is one of the variables that sends info to the SDM to make that decision. Thus what you're saying above when you state "If the airbag telltale has indicated that the airbag was active when it really wasn't, changing the sensor will not fix the problem" is that if the sensor was the issue, the SDM would accurately say yes or no and the system would be functioning based on that SDM decision but if the light was showing "On" yet the system wouldn't deploy the airbag in the case of an accident, then there is a problem somewhere else in the system, correct? The reasoning here being if the seat sensor was at fault, the SDM would report correctly the condition of the airbag system where in the above scenario, the SDM is reporting an operating system when, in fact, the system is not operating as reported.


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post #377 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 07:43 PM
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I talked with a DMV representative this morning. Can't do much more than that. I think it will depend on whether the DMV is aware of the recall more than anything. I have a vehicle that is up for registration renewal this month I think.

When I registered the Mallett, last year at this time. I had to physically go to the local GM dealership and have the recall completed, they gave me an Orange card that had to be given to DMV. Now thinking back, I had the whole thing done thru Pass Auto. I did not take it to DMV or even enter the door. So possibly it is as someone stated only dealers that have to jump thru that hoop. Private individuals may not be in the same situation.
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post #378 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 07:56 PM
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I still think there are major issues with the system, not just the seat cushion. It depends on where the vehicle is hit in the front as to whether the air bags go off or not. I saw one that went under a truck it appeared. Demolished from just above the radiator to the humps, pretty sure whoever was driving it was dead. No air bag deployed. If you are above the sensors directly behind the hood bracket, they don't seem to go off from the ones I have looked at.

I spent about a year looking for my salvage car. Air bag deployment was an eliminating factor for me. But after awhile, looking at all of them as closely as the pictures would allow, it varied greatly in what set them off and what didn't. Below the bracket, the driver seat normally deploys if hit hard enough. Above it seemed seldom.

I drive the car with the opinion none of them work. You can trust them, but I wouldn't for any reason. I think there is a much deeper problem, but it is virtually impossible to prove it. So my common sense factor tells me all the information I need. I am not afraid to drive the car, I drive it as often as I can. I grew up driving high horsepower vehicles without air bags. Not terribly concerned about them working or not to be honest. Just hate to see the people spend money on seat cushions that GM should have been paying for. I replaced the one in my salvage vehicle, the light said it was out. Put the new/used form Hoosier and the light went out. Now I am safe? Don't think so. Depending on idiot lights was never a good idea.
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post #379 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 08:02 PM
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And the moral of the story...Don't drive behind a truck....
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post #380 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 09:34 PM
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I am going to say something very stupid here. I am 70 years old, and have never had an accident, never a dent, a scratch. And I most likely have driven more than just about anyone other than a trucker. I still drive between 200 and 300 miles five days a week. So many cross country trips while the kid was racing motocross I can't count them, and that was in a truck.

So the odds that you gave me Robo seem astronomical to me. Maybe I have just been lucky, and now have jinxed that.
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post #381 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by skersfan View Post
I drive the car with the opinion none of them work.
Hmmmmm I wonder what this means. How do you drive differently if it has working airbags?

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post #382 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 10:02 PM
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Hmmmmm this seems to be an odd statement.
Bob is 70...I am 72. We did not grow up with airbags...perhaps windbags. We think alike. If I can only talk him into whitewall tires.

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post #383 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 11:21 PM
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Has anyone gotten a notice for a 2007 model Sky that was built in 2006? I got one for my 2008 today, but there was no mention of the 2007. My 2007 was built in early 2006, so it is outside of the 10-year time limit, and we have been wondering how those will be handled.
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I'm curious to know as well, as mine was #785 off the line in '06.
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I have a 2007 with a build date of April 2006...got my letter today. But as was already mentioned they are sending them out to all Kappas and I'm very glad to hear GM is stepping up.
Ditto, got my letter today, Sky #364 . The light indicates that mine still works, but who knows.
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post #384 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 12:07 PM
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Ours was off the line on 12/16/2005. The SKY is registered in the county of our summer place and the mail forwarding expired about in the middle of all the reports of getting these letters. If we got a recall letter, I'll find out when we make a trip up soon. I'm curious too if the letter has come yet. I will report back as soon as I know.

Just the same, I'm with skersfan and MM on the trust of these mechanical devices called airbags. I grew up in adult life with a company that spent huge amounts of money on making everyone think "DRIVE DEFENSIVELY", including annual update training and driving with a safety officer. Topic one was using the seatbelt. The airbag was not even discussed as it was just coming in or relatively new. Remember airbags were optional in the beginning and two were a sales gimmick, in my recall.
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post #385 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 07:42 PM
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... Remember airbags were optional in the beginning and two were a sales gimmick, in my recall.
When airbags were first brought to market by Chrysler, they were originally there to protect unbelted occupants in head on collisions and didn't do much for those with seat belts on. Today folks with at least half a brain where their seatbelts and airbag technology has evolved and locations have changed. Front airbags still mostly help the few remaining idiots who don't buckle up, but side airbags help everyone.

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post #386 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 08:11 PM
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WEAR not WHERE...the spelling police with the other half of a brain...perhaps
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post #387 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 08:28 PM
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This is a classic post.

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post #388 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 10:37 PM
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This is a classic post.
Nothing has changed David.
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post #389 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 11:59 PM
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Davhamm,

I really do not think the system is one of the better ones. Only two air bags, that seem to work when they want to. I ask that you go to some of the salvage site photos, and look at the pictures closely. I think you will see front end crashes, some looking identical, one sets the air bag off, the other doesn't.

I am glad to have them, very much so. But would I bet my house on yours working in a head on crash, not a chance.

I wish I had saved the picture where the Solstice had went under a semi( it appeared), The car was flat just above the hood brackets it appeared, smashed all the way to the humps. No air bag deployed. The impact alone should have set it off. It was the worst non deployment I had see. Can not imagine the driver surviving the accident.

I know that you and Robo are number guys, that is fine, but we can't prove very much with the numbers provided, one way or another. Personally, I don't trust the system at all, really don't care about the seat cushion part. We know it is bad, and have for a long time. But I think there are much more serious variations on the air bags deploying in a front collision. Has it stopped me from owning three of these darned things? Not in the slightest. Love the car, the design overall, with some shortcomings. I just believe we are not getting the whole story, and I doubt we ever will.

My opinion, you guys have yours. All is fine.
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post #390 of 1055 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 11:13 AM
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I still want to see the dealers face when I bring in a spare passengers seat and ask to have it fixed also.

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