UPDATED 3/1/2018 GM Issues a Recall of the Passenger Presence Sensor! - Page 27 - Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum
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post #391 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 10:28 AM
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Davhamm,...
I wish I had saved the picture where the Solstice had went under a semi( it appeared), The car was flat just above the hood brackets it appeared, smashed all the way to the humps. No air bag deployed. The impact alone should have set it off. It was the worst non deployment I had see. Can not imagine the driver surviving the accident.

I know that you and Robo are number guys, that is fine, but we can't prove very much with the numbers provided, one way or another. Personally, I don't trust the system at all,.
From your description of the accident, I would not expect any airbag system to go off, its all about the impact and the sensors. I am not an airbag guy at all, and in no way does anything I say here represent GM or even fact on the design, but most are parts are parts from other cars, so the "system" is probably very similiar to most/all GM cars of the time. The programing might be a bit different, but I know a lot of work goes into where the sensors are and what triggers an airbag. You may think an airbag not deploying when you think is the worst thing to happen, let me tell you one going off cause you hit a pot hole at 80MPH would be a lot worst.

This thread has people saying they drive the car like it doesn't have airbags or they don't trust they system. This just seems odd to me, does that mean you take more risks in cars with airbags?

A bit back to your roof shearing off accident, Energy would have been slowly dissipated as the car hood dragged on the truck then as the windshield header yielded etc. There was probably not much of a high G impact which is what sets of the sensor. The other problem looking at post accident cars, some will have been torn apart by the jaws of life, which can make a car look pretty messed up. I would put more confidence in your observations if there was signs on the dash, windshield or side window, of a passenger having been in the seat. But a perfectly clean passenger side makes me assume no one was there.

Personally, If I had my way. I would disengage the front airbags in all my cars. Personally don't think the risk is worth the benefit for people who wear their seatbelts. Side airbags, HUGE safety improvement, but thats just personal opinion. I wonder what this thread would be like if we had the Takata airbags -- people might be happy our passenger seat sensor doesn't work.

I am a GM Engineer.

I do not claim to be a GM representative, all of my postings are my own interpretation and personal opinions.

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post #392 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by christopher_2 View Post
I still want to see the dealers face when I bring in a spare passengers seat and ask to have it fixed also.
Unless you have a valid vehicle title to match the seat, you probably won't have much luck. Recalls are VIN-specific, and one each.

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post #393 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 11:32 AM
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Adding to what davhamm just posted: Looking at a car's condition will not tell you whether the airbag should have gone off. You need data about occupancy of the vehicle and injuries sustained by those occupants. Unless the occupants were injured or killed in a way that the airbag(s) would have prevented, lack of their deployment is not a "problem".

re: Robotech Yes, that is essentially what I was saying about the PPS and its relationship with the SDM except to say that the airbag not deploying in a crash would be due to a fault in the system only if it is a crash in which the airbag should have deployed. Most crashes should not result in deployment.

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post #394 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 12:37 PM
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I would like to blame all this on the Insurance Companies...
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post #395 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 02:47 PM
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I got my letter the other day. Didn't read too closely, but I was glad to see it. I've got the ignition recall for the dealership to do as well.

This Sky's not perfect, but it's perfect...for me
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post #396 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 07:36 PM
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Davhamm,

No, I drive it the same as any of my vehicles, maybe a little harder.

Just got rid of two that I have driven for 15 years with out air bags. 87 Ford Van and a 87 Pathfinder. Was never concerned about the lack of air bags. 287K on the Nissan, 300K on the Van.

Like said, everyone has their opinion, I have mine. Neither you are John are going to change it. Just looked at way too many of them to believe the system works right. I went from thinking the passenger air bag sensor was the problem, but now just feel the whole system is questionable.

I am over this topic, just glad that people that have spent money on replacing the sensor at the dealership, will get their money back. I bought a used one from Hoosier, don't have any seatbelt light problems at this point. I wonder if they will replace the salvage title one.
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post #397 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 01:14 AM
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Extra, Extra, Read all about it!

http://www.autonews.com/article/2017...ed-a-gm-recall

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post #398 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 01:44 AM Thread Starter
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Hahaha...thanks Jim! I even managed to get a little love out to @[email protected]! The forums got a mention too...
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post #399 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jgassor View Post

Very cool, thanks for posting the link... and Troy, you're famous now, lol!

Here is the article copied to a Word document just in case Automotive news blocks or pulls the story:
Attached Files
File Type: doc Sky Recall Story from Automotive News.doc (349.5 KB, 44 views)

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post #400 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 10:29 AM
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As usual, thanks for all your hard work and persistance.



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post #401 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 10:49 AM
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GM must hate you...but we Luv ya.
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post #402 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 02:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by marlboromike View Post
GM must hate you...but we Luv ya.
LOL...maybe, but it would be nice if this sparked a culture change within GM to expand their research into problems like this beyond just the Warranty Database information. I firmly believe that this problem was the result of two things.

The first is Old GM wanting to ignore recall type issues. My reasoning is look at the ignition switch recall. That problem was far more dangerous than ours, allegedly resulted in over 170 deaths, affected a LOT more cars, and even it was swept under the rug. If something like that was ignored then it is no surprise our 91,000 problem units which resulted in no reported deaths or injuries certainly would be too.

But, assuming NEW GM with it's watchdogs is beyond all that, the second issue is relying on that Warranty Database as the end all be all metric for discovering potential problems. Here GM had a part that, by 2010, was being recalled in another car GM manufactured, a car which had parts and technology from it put into the Kappa, and was being recalled in other "non-identical" designs by other manufacturers around the world. That information alone should have sparked someone to say "Hey, maybe these sensor mats in general might have a problem we need to address."

I love the quote from GM in that article: "These issues with the sensor mats are not new, they're not unique to these vehicles, and they're not unique to GM." Now, the reason I love this quote is because when you look at GM's reasoning for NOT investigating the Kappa further when the CTS had the recall was because they claimed the IEE mat in the CTS was unique to that car, no other car in GM's production used that mat and thus the issue didn't affect any other car GM produced. NOW they come back and claim "Well, these issue's aren't new and it's not just limited to us."

Had these factors been taken into consideration and had they sparked GM to investigate further the Kappa mats due to the complaints they were getting on the mats, I firmly believe by 2011 or 2012 GM would have discovered this issue and initiated the recall then.

I hope GM and the VERY understaffed NHTSA learns from this and that the NHTSA watchdogs that monitor GM be sure to expand their potential problem investigations beyond just the Warranty Repair system.

I firmly believe that NHTSA's Office of Defect Investigation (ODI...I think that's what ODI stands for) needs a bigger budget, a bigger staff, and needs the ability to analyze potential problems much like NSWC Corona does for Navy systems. Let's face it, this is the whole reason why NSWC Corona exists. We analyze systems for the Navy independent of manufacturers and the Navy institutions that are pushing for these systems. It is set up this way because it is believed that if left up to those who build or want the system, potential problems may be covered up or ignored due to the conflict of interest. A properly funded and staffed independent assessment agency would be able to uncover stuff like this.


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post #403 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 02:30 PM
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I repeat myself...this is the insurance companies fault. All the cars have these PPS. Why? Because when there was an accident, all the airbags deployed. The insurance companies did not want to pay for an airbag when there were no passengers in the vehicle. That is why this came to be.
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post #404 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marlboromike View Post
I repeat myself...this is the insurance companies fault. All the cars have these PPS. Why? Because when there was an accident, all the airbags deployed. The insurance companies did not want to pay for an airbag when there were no passengers in the vehicle. That is why this came to be.
Hmmmm. I thought it was because an airbag could cause serious injury or even death to a child in the passenger seat. Hence the 40 lb weight limit.


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post #405 of 984 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rusty Boltz View Post
Hmmmm. I thought it was because an airbag could cause serious injury or even death to a child in the passenger seat. Hence the 40 lb weight limit.
^ this...Heck, even small adults can be injured by an airbag inflating at full force. Hence why the cutoff weight is 115 lbs. Or at least this is how it was explained to me.


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