UPDATED 3/1/2018 GM Issues a Recall of the Passenger Presence Sensor! - Page 63 - Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum
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post #931 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kjelle69 View Post
......
How many will be killed because of GM's ****ty design of the PPS-sensor? It's so sad...
Short answer? None. So far at least.

Unless you know that someone was killed in that car you are pretty much ranting about nothing here. And if the driver's airbag wasn't deployed you are even more out in the weeds because the PPS has absolutely nothing to do with the driver side airbag deployment.

I have studied the reports about every single fatality in a Kappa-involved crash up through the end of last year (last year's data is not yet available) and there is no indication in any of those reports that anyone was killed because an airbag didn't deploy. I'll repeat that: No one has been killed in a Kappa because their airbag did not deploy when it should have.

Also, it is unlikely that GM had anything to do with the design of the PPS aside from issuing the specification and approving what Lear and IEE proposed.

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post #932 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 02:50 PM
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Maybe I got a bit too upset seeing this, but ranting.. I think not. I have no idea of whereas someone got killed in this specific accident, (Sincerely hope not!!), but looking at the damage it's sure enough to make considerable trauma to any person being in that vehicle. My point is that if the car is demolished in this extreme way, at least one of the airbags should have been deployed dont you think so?

Comforting to hear that noone has been killed due to faulty airbags, thanks for that @JohnWR.

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post #933 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JohnWR View Post
Short answer? None. So far at least.

Unless you know that someone was killed in that car you are pretty much ranting about nothing here. And if the driver's airbag wasn't deployed you are even more out in the weeds because the PPS has absolutely nothing to do with the driver side airbag deployment.

I have studied the reports about every single fatality in a Kappa-involved crash up through the end of last year (last year's data is not yet available) and there is no indication in any of those reports that anyone was killed because an airbag didn't deploy. I'll repeat that: No one has been killed in a Kappa because their airbag did not deploy when it should have.

Also, it is unlikely that GM had anything to do with the design of the PPS aside from issuing the specification and approving what Lear and IEE proposed.
I so wanted access to that kind of data but I couldn't find anything very comprehensive and nothing that showed whether or not a passenger was in the car, just if that airbag had deployed.

While Leer and IEE manufactured and assembled the parts, GM still would have had final sign off and approval of the part and there is still the remainder of the system to consider. All that eventually falls at GMs feet since it is their responsibility to test the system as a whole to ensure all the pieces of the system, regardless of their source, will work together in the environment and under the conditions they will see in that particular vehicle.

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Originally Posted by Kjelle69 View Post
Maybe I got a bit too upset seeing this, but ranting.. I think not. I have no idea of whereas someone got killed in this specific accident, (Sincerely hope not!!), but looking at the damage it's sure enough to make considerable trauma to any person being in that vehicle. My point is that if the car is demolished in this extreme way, at least one of the airbags should have been deployed dont you think so?

Comforting to hear that noone has been killed due to faulty airbags, thanks for that @JohnWR.
Believe it or not, that picture and this very debate is what prompted me to dig further into this problem. You'll note that car in the picture looks like it hit a tree or telephone pole...something very narrow...right in the center of the bumper. The sensors for detecting a crash are on the frame rails on either side of this impact and thus didn't register the full force of the impact like they would have with a brick wall or another car. Considering the driver airbag didn't go off either it tells me the airbag system wasn't instructed to deploy via the system's logic (as John mentioned, just a failed PPS mat wouldn't suppress the entire system...at least that is GM's official answer in the response to my petition).

This was the question that was brought up three years ago (damn it's been that long???)...was the airbag system in the Kappa adequate enough to rely on in every crash where we feel the air bags should deploy? As I stated then, to answer that question one had to know if there was a defective PPS mat in the car, if there was a passenger in the car, and what was the initial impact point during the crash? Most of the time I couldn't find that data so that led me to start investigating the reports of faulty PPS mats and...well the recall was the result of that.

Suffice to say not every crash that demolishes the car will deploy our airbags. Roll overs, side impacts, offset impacts, impacts like this one...all of those may leave a car looking destroyed but without an airbag deployment.
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post #934 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 04:06 PM
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No, I don't, and I don't know what convinces you they should have, or even that anyone suffered trauma. Yes, it looks like the front hit a pole of some kind, but it doesn't look like the damage went past the first structural member of the chassis, so the speed couldn't have been too great. It also looks like the back is badly damaged, so it is even possible that it was pushed into the pole instead of driving into it, requiring even less impact.

Airbags rightly require quite a significant deceleration to deploy, and it seems very likely to me that this car did not experience that much deceleration. It is likely that the seat belt pre-tensioners fired, as that will occur at a much lower level than airbag deployment, and with impacts that are not head-on. You might ask your friend about the belts, including whether they were cut.

Frankly, looking at this car or any other that has been damaged, it is pure speculation about what did, didn't, or should have happened unless you know precisely how the crash occurred, and how the occupants fared.

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rant verb
\ˈrant \
ranted; ranting; rants
Definition of rant (Entry 1 of 2)
intransitive verb

1 : to talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner
2 : to scold vehemently
transitive verb

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post #935 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 04:23 PM
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With regard to fatalities, the data is pretty comprehensive. There have been no fatalities. As far as injuries are concerned there isn't anything readily available. Realistically, since the airbag is supposed to be the last ditch I-may-kill-you-but-without-me-you-are-going-to-die-anyway line of defense, that suggests to me that airbags are deploying when they really really need to.

Yes, GM is ultimately responsible for the sensor and the system, but you have to admit that there is no evidence that the system doesn't function exactly as it should, with the obvious exception of the sensor's susceptibility to damage. And even the sensor isn't complete crap, as I happen to have one that has seen more use than most (105k miles, a third while occupied) and is still functioning. My only point was that it probably isn't GM's design.
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post #936 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 04:39 PM
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Ok, maybe it could be classified as ranting. Sorry for that. I blame it on my shortcomings of the language and my situation of "upsettness" :-/
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post #937 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 04:49 PM
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Sorry but I just have to make a joke about this altough it's a very serious topic. I really hope you can forgive me.

Glossary:

English Swedish
Crash = Smell
Speed = Fart


Directly translated:

Det är inte farten som dödar, det är smellen.

It's not the fart(speed) that kills you, it's the smell(Crash).

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post #938 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Robotech View Post
Suffice to say not every crash that demolishes the car will deploy our airbags. Roll overs, side impacts, offset impacts, impacts like this one...all of those may leave a car looking destroyed but without an airbag deployment.
Oh good. So we can die from a head on crash into a light pole because GM was too cheap to add a third sensor in the centre of the car?
It just gets better, doesn't it?

Actually, given that the sensor(s) are supposed to activate air bags when the car decelerates at 7 Gs or more, GM could have saved money and put one centrally located sensor at the front in the crush zone. Might prevent us from dying in a 7G crash into a light pole that acts as a sort of soft landing device and keeps the deceleration just below the threshold?

All this reminds me of racing drivers like Masten Gregory that were famous for not using belts because they wanted to be able to stand up in the car that was about to crash and bail out....he figured that he'd be more likely to die being crushed inside a swiftly shrinking metal box than skidding across the tarmac on his butt.

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post #939 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 07:57 PM
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My car had the bandaid applied in April. It has been driven a grand total of 431 miles since then. Only Robo has sat in the passenger seat since it was done. It failed last week. I am now blaming him for the demise of my safety system.

Duct tape is not the answer for this problem. A cheap way out, and now my guess is that there aren't any seat cusions available and will never be. Before long the state of California will not license this car because of an outstanding safety recall. Bahh BAhhh Bahhh. Maybe we could loan them another gazillion dollars to take to Mexico and have them fixed there.
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post #940 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kjelle69 View Post
Ok, maybe it could be classified as ranting. Sorry for that. I blame it on my shortcomings of the language and my situation of "upsettness" :-/
I was a bit harsh also due to my upsettness at your upsettness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjelle69 View Post
Sorry but I just have to make a joke about this altough it's a very serious topic. I really hope you can forgive me.

Glossary:

English Swedish
Crash = Smell
Speed = Fart


Directly translated:

Det är inte farten som dödar, det är smellen.

It's not the fart(speed) that kills you, it's the smell(Crash).
That is great, I love it! True, too.

I have no problem joking about it, especially since nearly all of the Kappa deaths were the driver's fault. Usually it seems to have been for thinking he was a better driver than he actually was.
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Oh good. So we can die from a head on crash into a light pole because GM was too cheap to add a third sensor in the centre of the car?
It just gets better, doesn't it?

Actually, given that the sensor(s) are supposed to activate air bags when the car decelerates at 7 Gs or more, GM could have saved money and put one centrally located sensor at the front in the crush zone. Might prevent us from dying in a 7G crash into a light pole that acts as a sort of soft landing device and keeps the deceleration just below the threshold?..........
It has nothing to do with cheap, and everything to do with appropriate operation of the system. Why would you care if part of the crumple zone decelerates at an unsafe rate? You aren't sitting there, and it would trigger the system too soon, actually reducing its effectiveness.

Theoretically, yes but:
>The airbags are supplemental protection, not primary, so the simple fact of non-deployment is not necessarily fatal.
>The sensor is attached to the same structure that your body is, so it will detect an acceleration that is dangerous to you and trigger airbag deployment accordingly.
>Airbags are nearly as likely to kill or injure you as not, especially if you are a driver who is 5'-3" or less in height, or if you have the passenger seat at an equivalent location.
I'm pretty happy with the setup, as I don't care for the idea of unnecessary airbag deployments since in-car explosions aren't fun, and replacing all that crap is too expensive to have it go off when it doesn't have to.

The car actually does have three sensors as the SDM, located between the seats, has internal sensors that it monitors along with the external ones on the frame rails.
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post #941 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 08:12 PM
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My car had the bandaid applied in April. It has been driven a grand total of 431 miles since then. Only Robo has sat in the passenger seat since it was done. It failed last week. I am now blaming him for the demise of my safety system.

Duct tape is not the answer for this problem. A cheap way out, and now my guess is that there aren't any seat cusions available and will never be. Before long the state of California will not license this car because of an outstanding safety recall. Bahh BAhhh Bahhh. Maybe we could loan them another gazillion dollars to take to Mexico and have them fixed there.
Technically you have had the recall satisfied, so you have no worries on that front.

If you do turn out to be correct about no PPS coming I will send you an emulator that will give you full manual control of the passenger airbag, so all will not be lost.
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post #942 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skersfan View Post
My car had the bandaid applied in April. It has been driven a grand total of 431 miles since then. Only Robo has sat in the passenger seat since it was done. It failed last week. I am now blaming him for the demise of my safety system.
Hey Bob, I could swear I saw the 'Queen Bee' riding in the passenger seat back in late October, .
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post #943 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 08:50 PM
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Thanks JohnWR, I appreciate all you have done on this, but this tape deal was never going to be a fix for broken cushion. And I would guess my car gets better treatment than most. The only good thing about it is the fact that I really don't care anymore. Still trying to get the tune figured out.

Also I can tell the grand kids they can ride in the car. I wouldn't let them because of the stupid assed seat situation. I now realize it didn't make a bit of difference. Junk on top of junk does not fix things.

My guess is, I have not taken it in yet. That when I do, it will open the need for the cushion, and therefore the recall has not been completed, or would reopen. Tape is not going to be the answer the second time. There bet was most will make it thru the year of warranty. Once that time frame is gone, so is their obligation as I read it. Personally I really don't care about it, but don't want the car taken off the road beause they didn't fix it properly. As stated by others, seldom anyone in the passenger seat.

I think more damage must have been done to it by pulling it apart and fixing it than it had, but who knows. Will try to get it to the dealership this coming week.
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post #944 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 08:53 PM
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Yea I forgot about the Palm Springs run, but his arse is bigger! So he did it!!!! I guess technically she has more miles on the seat than he does. I will let them fight it out!!!!!

I owe you an email, have not forgotten about the New York deal.
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post #945 of 979 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 10:54 PM
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No, tape was not a fix for a broken sensor, it was hoped to be a prevention for an un-broken one, and no, it will not be attempted as the fix the second time around.

I think that you are wrong about the recall status. They did the prescribed work and satisfied the recall. What you have now should be a warranty claim.

The offer for a solution is open if you need it later. Take your time deciding, I'm not ready to send anything out for a while anyway.

Of course, GM may yet disappoint you and supply the needed parts for the repair.

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