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post #31 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-01-2011, 10:57 PM
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See the gap between the bushing and the bar? Thats a fail as far as performance upgrade goes.

If this is a case of the bushing being too big on the outside then there ain't enough smushing going on.

Seriously this is a sign of someone not knowing what they are doing, fine it's his car he can hose it up if he wants to but unsuspecting readers should be warned that this is not the proper part! The fact that it was stickied makes me wonder if that person even had a clue or if they were duped by some pretty pictures. Thanks for the pictures by the way they clearly show what I mean.

Oh check out where it looks like the paint has been worn off the frame in the first picture, I would bet the original bushing was rubbing there and that is the source of the squeak.
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post #32 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-01-2011, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
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Why would anyone knowingly use a high performance suspension bushing that was too big? The whole point of installing the urethane bushing is to reduce the amount of give in the suspension so that the bar works like it is supposed to without the bar moving around until it crushes the rubber part to the point where the bar is then "bound." Using a loose bushing defeats the whole purpose. The bar will move around until it hits the urethane bushing. Talk about wasting your time and money to at best get the same result that you would have if you had done nothing.

I would have to guess using a bushing that was too big would be almost worse then just leaving it stock, except that since it is so loose on the bar there is no need to lube the thing at all because if it doesn't touch the bar it can't squeak. In which case adding the grease zerk is also a waste of time and money.

With bad information like this why was this thread made a sticky? I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't know better that actually uses this bad information about which bushing to use. To anyone thinking of doing this GET THE RIGHT BUSHING THAT FITS THE BAR NOT ONE THAT IS LOOSE.
It has worked just fine for 12K miles so far. The bar is at a slight bend where the bushing touches, so the 1mm (you do know how small 1mm is right) allows it not to bind. It doesn't squeak, and has not effected handling at all.

That said, I used the knowledge available at the time to do it, and had nothing to do with the stickey, and do not see any reason to change it now.

Jim

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Last edited by JimVonBaden; 12-01-2011 at 11:35 PM.
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post #33 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-02-2011, 08:52 PM
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It has worked just fine for 12K miles so far. The bar is at a slight bend where the bushing touches, so the 1mm (you do know how small 1mm is right) allows it not to bind. It doesn't squeak, and has not effected handling at all.

That said, I used the knowledge available at the time to do it, and had nothing to do with the stickey, and do not see any reason to change it now.

Jim
I suppose if you don't drive your car in a manor that would make the roll bars actually do their job then yeah it would work just fine for 12k miles. Saying "has not effected handling at all" shows you don't really drive your car in that manor because even inexperienced drivers can usually tell that handling changes, for the better, when you install poly bushings. They tighten things up and make the ride more firm, even plain jane passengers can tell.

Anyone that looks at YOUR pictures can tell there is a gap between the bar and the bushing. As for this one, "you do know how small 1mm is right" you don't even need a set of calipers or mics to see that the bushing is too big! But to answer your question it's about .040 inches and if that gap is only .040 in then you must have no idea on size [Mod Snip]

FYI you want the bushing to "bind" on the bar and by bind I mean you don't want the bushing to be a loose fit because you don't want the bar to move that's the whole point of installing uprated bushings. That one comment alone proves you don't really know what your doing with these bushings and people should not blindly follow you like sheep.

At one time or another anyone that works on cars has gotten the wrong parts for the task from their part supplier, the difference between installers is their knowledge and ability to determine that they got the wrong parts and then correcting the matter. From your comments about firey crash, although I have only seen you make that comment, I would guess others have already pointed out your error in parts selection. The fact that you haven't gone ahead and gotten the right parts and installed them says either you don't truly understand the concept behind harder bushings or you have an ego problem that prevents you from saying, even to yourself, I got the wrong parts I should change them.

To everyone else reading this thread do yourself a favor and don't use the bushing Jim did, get the right one and install them or have someone who knows what they are doing install them.

Last edited by Bogie; 12-02-2011 at 11:11 PM. Reason: Comment not conducive to technical discussion
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post #34 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-03-2011, 12:47 AM Thread Starter
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Do us all a favor and supply the RIGHT part number since it seems to bother you so much!

The post was about the process, if you don't want to use the part number I used, don't.

No need to get all pissy and insulting about it.

Jim

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post #35 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-03-2011, 12:47 PM
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Do us all a favor and supply the RIGHT part number since it seems to bother you so much!

The post was about the process, if you don't want to use the part number I used, don't.

No need to get all pissy and insulting about it.

Jim
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post #36 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-03-2011, 02:08 PM
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Do us all a favor and supply the RIGHT part number since it seems to bother you so much!

The post was about the process, if you don't want to use the part number I used, don't.

No need to get all pissy and insulting about it.

Jim
I'm not sure what I did to be called "pissy and insulting" I simply stated my opinion backed up with facts, I guess you have a problem accepting that too. You know Jim most people will be wrong at some point in their life and my dad always told me "a real man can admit when he's wrong" it's really not that hard to do, you might want to try it sometime.

I don't think I was being "pissy" and Bogie edited out a joke that he thought was insulting, which by the way I was cool with he's got a job to do and I have no intention of making that harder for him especially over a joke. If anything you were the one being "pissy" and "insulting" by acting like I didn't know what a millimeter was, and now with your last post you are also the one to start calling people names.

As for the right part I did some searching and found the following thread that has some good information, the pictures look familiar.
Suspension creaking in colder weather?? - Pontiac Solstice Forum

So it looks like at this time there is no direct drop in correct poly bushing for this application, I will have to do some more looking to see if I can find an undersized bushing that can be reamed to the correct size. If I find out you can bet I will post about it here.
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post #37 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-03-2011, 03:42 PM
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I have had some inquiries in PM and figure if a few have questions, then there are others that have the same question but just didn't ask. So here goes:

The simple fact a thread is sticky'd does NOT constitute Skyroadster's endorsement of the thread. All the "buyer beware" metaphors that apply to non-stick threads apply to stick threads.

The exchange of information is what the forum is all about. An OP provides some info on how to accomplish a task. Other members provide their inputs to the process. That's the way it's supposed to work.

If someone has a technical issue with a procedure or part, and truly desires to help the community, then please present the info in a manner that HELPS the community. Calling members names and arguing about stuff not germane to the TECHNICAL issue only undermines the help. It undermines the counter argument. Members will dismiss the counter argument as just an excuse to flame a member. Are you here to take pot shots at members? Are are you here to help the membership as a whole?

There is concern amongst some members that the bushing in the OP effort is sized incorrectly and will result in bad performance...or worse. I'm not a suspension expert, so I cannot provide any kind of expert commentary on the veracity of either side's claim. All I know is some members, who otherwise appear to be knowledgeable and informed, have expressed concern. But that's the beauty of this forum. They are free to express that concern and add to the tech knowledge of the community. So all members can read/hear about it.

As for the stick: The process is nicely described with pics and guidance. It adds value. And now that "experts" have added their concerns, the guidance is improved. Better value! Let's keep it stuck. Buyer Beware!

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post #38 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-05-2011, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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I'm not sure what I did to be called "pissy and insulting" I simply stated my opinion backed up with facts, I guess you have a problem accepting that too. You know Jim most people will be wrong at some point in their life and my dad always told me "a real man can admit when he's wrong" it's really not that hard to do, you might want to try it sometime.

I don't think I was being "pissy" and Bogie edited out a joke that he thought was insulting, which by the way I was cool with he's got a job to do and I have no intention of making that harder for him especially over a joke. If anything you were the one being "pissy" and "insulting" by acting like I didn't know what a millimeter was, and now with your last post you are also the one to start calling people names.

As for the right part I did some searching and found the following thread that has some good information, the pictures look familiar.
Suspension creaking in colder weather?? - Pontiac Solstice Forum

So it looks like at this time there is no direct drop in correct poly bushing for this application, I will have to do some more looking to see if I can find an undersized bushing that can be reamed to the correct size. If I find out you can bet I will post about it here.
If you don't see it, well you don't.

I admitted that the part may not be the exact fit, and reiterated that it works fine. I also asked you to provide the right part, and you could not. "Reaming" an undersized part is no more precise than the 1mm extra in diameter one that I used. I could result in serious binding.

Like I said, if you do not want to do it, don't. It has worked fine for me and several others.

FYI The pictures look familiar because ellf used mine. Now you have all the information you need to do it right!

Jim

PS I drive my car plenty hard. If this caused handling issues I would have noticed.

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post #39 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-05-2011, 10:10 PM
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I'd like to say thanks to the OP, AND thanks to those that warned about the correct parts. The discussion prompted me to read up on sway bars and realize a lack of them (or weak OEM bars, I haven't gone under to check yet) are probably part of why my expy sways all over the place, but the wifes Tundra corners more like a sporty sedan than a truck

I have mixed thoughts on the thread and the arguement...

The OP solved his problem (squeaks) and hasn't noticed a difference in handling. That makes the thread a success in mine and likely most peoples minds. It's a good how to thread. Only the limited bushing selections available keeps this mod from ALSO being a performance increase! *

Most likely the bushing gap is not letting the bar shift or flex any more than the stock crap rubber bushing. If you look at the before picks, even the crappy rubber bushing has a heck of a gap there with grease crammed in.

I'm thinking he prob hasn't seen any noticeable performance decrease, but short of letting the Stig run laps in each configuration, we will never know for sure
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post #40 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-06-2011, 01:18 AM
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Here's some added "value" from an expert...

The bushing is the wrong size.
The clamp is the wrong type clamp.
The grease fitting protrudes too far into the clamp.
These three things WILL absolutely effect the operation of the bar.

A bushing that is too loose is actually worse than one that's too tight. Here's the facts behind that statement... For an (anti)sway bar to work properly it has to be held firmly at the bushings/mounts. Without those points held in place, the entire bar just moves up and down and doesn't transfer any of the force to the other side. What's happening, whether the OP wants to admit it or not, is when the one end of the bar goes up, it then moves in the loose bushing until it hits the side, then on the other side of the car the bar will push the other direction in that bushing, again, until it hits it's side of the loose bushing. After all that movement, THEN the other side's arm of the bar will finally start to push on the other suspension arm. If the bushing is too tight, it's actually better because there is such a small amount of rotation at those points binding is not really a big issue when you're talking about performance of the bar. This also will give you an idea of how much of an issue a loose fitting bushing will be. A small amount of play at the bushing point is a big deal because of the small amount of movement at those points compared to the large movement at the arm ends.

Clamps- Urethane bushings are not supposed to be used in rubber bushing clamps. Those clamps are wrong for those bushings. That Urethane bushing should be in a flat bar type of clamp, not a dished one like rubber bushings use.

Grease fitting- that grease fitting IS extending too far into the center of the clamp. The only thing keeping it from hitting is the fact the clamp is dished.

Soooo, I'm not saying the OP's post has no value, but I am saying there is a lot of misinformation in it for a supposedly informative and educational thread. The OP may not be able to tell it's not working as well as it should, or was originally designed, but that doesn't mean it isn't. And no, I haven't done any research to find the correct sizes for an NA Kappa, but it's not that hard to do. As another member mentioned, all you have to do is measure your bar and then find the proper bushing by size. I've put Urethane bushings on hundreds of cars, and probably half a dozen Kappa's. It is possible to do the install properly. I would have to say this particular car has not had a proper install. Which comes around to my statement that for an install thread, it's best if it's actually a proper install than is being shown.


OK, I just looked at my Summit orders and found the last set I bought. '08 Sky Redline, stock FE3 bars front and back. Front bar was 33.3mm, the proper Energy Suspension bushing set was this one...

Energy Suspension 9-5167R - Energy Suspension Sway Bar Bushings - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Rear bar was 25.4mm, this is the proper Urethane bushing kit...

Energy Suspension 9-5129R - Energy Suspension Sway Bar Bushings - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Using a 33mm bushing for a 33.3mm bar is the right sizing. Using a 25mm bushing for a 25.4mm bar is also the correct sizing.

On my car I have Z0K bars, the front is the same diameter but the rear is 27.2mm. This is the proper bushing kit...

Energy Suspension 9-5162R - Energy Suspension Sway Bar Bushings - Overview - SummitRacing.com

FE2 LE5's show fronts as 27.2mm and rears as 24.2mm. I believe these are the proper bushings for those cars...

Front-
Energy Suspension 9-5162R - Energy Suspension Sway Bar Bushings - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Rear-
Energy Suspension 9-5160G - Energy Suspension Sway Bar Bushings - Overview - SummitRacing.com

I'm not positive on the LE5/FE2 cars, but I can guarantee the numbers I've posted here are correct for FE3 and Z0K bars. Perfect fit, perfect operation and no squeaking. Using a bushing that's .2mm or .3mm tighter is better than .7mm or 1.0mm too loose. And don't forget to use the clamps they come with, they're meant for those particular bushings. The stock clamps are for rubber bushings.

Last edited by gmtech16450yz; 12-06-2011 at 02:39 AM. Reason: Added links to proper bushing kits.
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post #41 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-06-2011, 07:20 AM
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Dude!

$40 and the squeak is gone and I don't need to do any drilling or anything?!?

I am so there!

---

Grr... Why is the smaller, non nippled bushing $5 more???

Last edited by Nova-Exarch; 12-06-2011 at 07:50 AM.
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post #42 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-06-2011, 09:08 AM
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OK, I just looked at my Summit orders and found the last set I bought. [...]
I've stayed out of this so far, but I have to respectfully disagree with your choice for the front LNF bar bushing, or at least throw in a caveat... the 9-5167 busing and bracket is shorter than the stock bushing and pulls the bar closer to the mounting crossmember by about 3/16-1/4". This could 'pre-load' the sway bar and have equally untoward effects.

As far as I know, no-one has found the perfectly-sized replacement for the fronts on our cars.

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post #43 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-06-2011, 10:28 AM
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I've stayed out of this so far, but I have to respectfully disagree with your choice for the front LNF bar bushing, or at least throw in a caveat... the 9-5167 busing and bracket is shorter than the stock bushing and pulls the bar closer to the mounting crossmember by about 3/16-1/4". This could 'pre-load' the sway bar and have equally untoward effects.

As far as I know, no-one has found the perfectly-sized replacement for the fronts on our cars.
It's all about Physics Tomato. If you look at and understand the physics behind the movements of the bar, the 3/16-1/4 inch difference in mounting positions will have virtually no effect on the operation, aside from possible clearance issues, of which there are none. You're moving BOTH pivot points ever so slightly around the arc of arm movement, until you go at least a couple of inches at that point it will have little to no effect.

The opposite argument actually has more merit... By moving the bar closer to the mounting surface, you're strengthening the holding power and reducing the possible flexing of the clamps by in effect reducing the leverage on the point the bar is held at. The whole point is to keep those two points as solid as possible, reducing the distance between the bar and mounting point could only help this, not hurt it. Again, this is assuming there are no clearance issues, which I can guarantee there isn't.

It's all about physics. 1mm slop in the bushings, big deal. Moving the mount 3/16 of an inch closer to the frame, not a big deal or actually an advantage.
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post #44 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-06-2011, 11:25 AM
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It's all about Physics Tomato. If you look at and understand the physics behind the movements of the bar, the 3/16-1/4 inch difference in mounting positions will have virtually no effect on the operation, aside from possible clearance issues, of which there are none. You're moving BOTH pivot points ever so slightly around the arc of arm movement, until you go at least a couple of inches at that point it will have little to no effect.
Wellllll.... if it WAS around the arc of arm movement, then that's fine, since there would then be no preload. HOWEVER, the arc center is actually where the old mount position would be. You are now moving the mount point AWAY from that arc center in a direction off the arc. You would only be able to move it "around the arc of arm movement" if you were also moving the bolt holes - which you're not.

Actually, it's all about geometry This is a rough diagram I just drew (exaggerated, I know) of what I mean. The bushing mount point is on the left, the suspension mount point on the right. The red arc showing what happens if the mount point is moved toward the crossmember... preload in the form of added tension between the bushing and the suspension mount. At the very least, the bushing will wear out very quickly.
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Last edited by TomatoSoup; 12-06-2011 at 11:42 AM.
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post #45 of 110 (permalink) Old 12-06-2011, 11:59 AM
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So if anyone is wondering why I hardly ever post on here, this is why.

I actually heard about this thread on another forum and came here to read it. I posted my thoughts because there were several people posting in this asking for the correct information and they weren't getting it. My post had correct information and facts. Information and facts gleaned from over 35 years of actually working on things like this. I designed my own sway bar setup for a car I autocrossed in the '80's, that was one of my first learning experiences/experiments with swaybars in particular. I tried some things that I'd learned from my time working on a race team at the Indy 500, some worked, some didn't. One of the things I learned from that first setup was what happens when your sway bars are TOO stiff, understeer! These things I learned through training, experience and of course trial and error.

What I posted here is factual information. I just don't understand why some people just want to argue things like this with me. I don't know everything, no one does. But I do know a sh!tload about stuff like this. My life since the minute I was born was and is surrounded by cars and either watching my Dad working on them or doing it myself. I know cars. Sorry Tomato, but your theory doesn't hold water in reality. I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THE 3/16 OF AN INCH HAS NO EFFECT IN THIS SITUATION. It will NOT wear out "very" quickly. You can argue all you want, but it will not change the reality of the situation.

For those that take my advice and use the part numbers I've posted, if they wear out "very quickly" send them to me and I'll pay twice what you paid for them.


Oh, BTW, it is absolutely about physics. Geometry is a part of physics. You can't understand physics if you don't first understand geometry. The reason I said physics is because this situation is all about FORCE. My point was you have to understand where the lines of force are in this situation. Geometry obviously is a factor, but it's the force we're concerned with here. You can change the geometry and not have a meaningful amount of force change. Here's a VERY simple analogy. Put your elbow on the table like you're going to arm wrestle. Now slide your elbow across the table an inch or even two. Your arm (sway bar) still has the same angle, we aren't changing that in the actual sway bar situation, you're just moving the point at which it touches the table (frame). Until you go to an extreme amount of movement across the table, that inch or so makes little to no difference in the forces placed on your arm. Now go one step further, pick your elbow up off the table just a 1/4 of an inch. That absolutely will have an effect on the force your arm is taking. THAT'S what I'm talking about with the bushing slop vs. actual bushing location.

Last edited by gmtech16450yz; 12-06-2011 at 12:13 PM.
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