Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum - Reply to Topic
Saturn Sky Performance Discussion Internal Engine | External Engine | Suspension | Exhaust | Upgrades and Aftermarket

Thread: Another Le5 Sky turbo add Reply to Thread
Title:
Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Saturn Sky Forums: Saturn Sky Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










  Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-04-2019 10:52 AM
Robotech
Quote:
Originally Posted by coothethird View Post
I see. So use a ported banjo bolt. With the appropriate threads, of course.
Bingo. I figured they had a name but no idea what they were called. When you find the bolt and banjo fitting that works, let me know. I will need to pick some up too. Cheaper than getting the OEM parts I'm sure.
06-03-2019 07:55 PM
coothethird I see. So use a ported banjo bolt. With the appropriate threads, of course.
06-03-2019 02:08 PM
Robotech Basically, look at where your overflow coolant tank line connects to the head on your LE5. If you remove that line at the head, you'll fine a hose barb that is screwed into the head (it has a small hex base you can put a wrench on...10mm??? Don't remember). If you were to remove that, you now have the hole where the LNF turbo's water return connects to using a banjo fitting with a hose barb that screws into the top of it for the overflow line. That's how the factory LNF is setup. I don't have pictures but if you do a google image search for LNF and look in that area of the engine, you'll see how its done. I'm going to try to use that setup on my new engine but it will come down to clearance for my return style fuel rail. That makes it a little tight up there.
06-01-2019 05:02 PM
coothethird Ok, I am finally going to start gaining more traction on this build. I am in the process of doing R&R on the clutch and waterpump (<may convert to electric), so it seems a good time to take other stuff apart too...

New parts(well, new to me):

-AEM wideband o2 controller (Re-found from another project, previously though lost in a move...)
-GFB G-Force III EBC (Scored this super cheap NIB, will see how it works out)
-42lb ev6 injectors (will work for now, until I decide to pull a Robo and blow her up... JK)
-Solo Cat-free downpipe
-OEM RL intercooler
-OEM RL charge pipes
-DDM turbo to airbox elbow

(Thanks to Skersfan for having some IC parts stashed away!)


Question about coolant (Water) hookup on the turbo:

- I have an LNF t-stat housing a pipe (it's off a Regal, so maybe it fits... lol). So the OEM water line should hook easily from T-stat housing to turbo. After re-reading Robotech's build, there was an edit about returning straight to the head (LNF style). Could someone elaborate on the fitting in the head? Maybe a picture of this fitting?
06-30-2018 03:24 AM
Robotech I believe they may be slightly smaller than 2.5 but you can get 2.5 pipes into them with some finessing.

Throttle body for the LE5 I think is closer to 2.75".

As for the eBoost2, there are some major differences such as boost level over time boost switching, number of boost groups, and the fact that the eBoost2 is a gauge rather than a box you have to mount somewhere. I have my eBoost2 in a pillar gauge pod. I paid less for my eBoost2 used than retail on the eBoost street.
06-29-2018 05:00 PM
coothethird Is the stock intercooler outlet 2.5"? Also, is the le5 throttle body 2.5"?

The reason I ask about the eboost2 is because I was looking at the eboost2 and eboost street that a friend has. The only boost control difference I could find was the rSP function.
06-29-2018 04:49 PM
Robotech
Quote:
Originally Posted by coothethird View Post
I guess it would make sense to get all the couplers together since I will need to put a cold side pipe together anyway. And some form of intake...
You kind of have to since your cold side pipe is going to be 2.75" to 3". The RL cold side pipes are 2.5" and trying to get those couplers around a bigger pipe is not easy. I'd go with a 3" pipe and you will want bigger couplers for that for sure. Nylon reinforced silicon couplers will work...these are the ones that look like they have little white dots on the end edges. This is the nylon molded into the silicon.

Quote:
Robotech, are you using the rSP function on your eboost 2?
No, I use the Boost Correction function (Cor)

http://www.pacperformance.com.au/Art...ns-Sept-14.pdf
page 30 in the manual.
06-28-2018 08:02 PM
coothethird Robotech, are you using the rSP function on your eboost 2?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
06-26-2018 05:03 PM
coothethird I guess it would make sense to get all the couplers together since I will need to put a cold side pipe together anyway. And some form of intake.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
06-26-2018 04:33 PM
coothethird I was informed that the stock couplers and clamps may need to be omitted and replaced with better aftermarket ones. Any suggestions on which ones would be better?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
06-22-2018 12:27 PM
Robotech
Quote:
Originally Posted by coothethird View Post
Thanks for the thorough response!
No problem, glad to play it forward. Tons of people were there for me when I was doing my build.

Quote:
Is a stock (gxp/redline) hot side charge pipe worth using? Or should I just get/make a better one while sorting out the cold side pipe?
Honestly, it's fine. If you're looking to save a few bucks this is DEFINITELY one place to do it. Doesn't look pretty but performance wise it's not going to hurt anything really. You may make about the same power as a stock Redline and updating these on that car doesn't do anything much power wise either.

Quote:
Do you use your wideband for any data output? Or any data logging? I will probably get a cheap ish one unless there are other reasons to get an aem.
Oh...ABSO-F'ING-LUTELY! I have the output from the AEM gauge running through my dash, up my center console, and out the side of it behind my passenger seat with a couple plugs on the wires. When I bring in my HP Tuners, it has a matching set of leads on it's box that plug into these. I wired it so you can't reverse the leads. Plug in it's OBDII port, connect the two wires, and now I have real time AFR logging with the rest of the tune. If you're tuning yourself, it's the only way to do it. RPM's turner used my setup when tuning my car and even he commented how nice it was to work on a setup like this where you can see the AFR real time with the rest of the data.

Some things, like the hot side pipe and intake (mine is about $100 intake built from parts off eBay and PepBoys...LOL) but other things, like the AEM WB, are worth spending the coin.

Quote:
I was definitely looking at an electronic boost controller. Again, I will probably get a cheap ish one.
IF you're going to go cheap here, just go with a mechanical and a $30 boost gauge. Unless the controller has the ability to compensate for boost drop over RPM, it's not worth it. Save your coin for either the AEM controller (About $350 but not as good as the eBoost2) or TrueBoost eBoost2 ($500). Again, not a place to cheap out on unless you get INCREADIBLY lucky like I did and find someone selling a used eBoost2 for $200...LOL

Quote:
I think a return fuel system with boost reference is also a good idea. I'm looking at getting a used rail, so I can modify/weld on it and have it ready.
That would work OR you can just get the rail from RPM that's already modified for it...I went with modifying a DDM rail only because RPM didn't offer theirs at that time. When it comes to things like fuel, unless you're REALLY good at welding I would just prefer the confidence of getting it from someone who's done it before. My DDM based rail was all screw together with no welding required and I still had a few issues. (All my doing, of course. LOL)

Quote:
Another question, I have seen a "hi-boost" engine kit. Are these worth doing?
I run 15 psi on the K04 and the 2007 LE5 with no such kit. I'm already over the limits of the K04 so if I want more power, my next upgrade would be a bigger turbo. Spin the K04 much more than 15 psi on the 2.4 and you're going to be generating a lot of heat without much more power. I'm already seeing it. Like I said...I make my max power at 4600 rpm...we have a 7K redline. By 7k I'm not making much power even though I'm still seeing 15psi. Unless you have a boost controller that can compensate for boost drop over RPM (and really the eBoost2 is the only one I could find that did it) you may see boost drop off over RPM at lower boost levels.

THAT said, the "high-boost" engine kits ARE required if you go with a bigger turbo and higher boost levels. Our engines have 10.4:1 compression while the LNFs are 9.2:1. If you run higher boost on the LE5 with that high of compression, you stand a good chance of blowing a head gasket or damaging the engine (I still wonder though if E85 would be able to let you run higher compression and more boost since it is supposed to like high compression and be more efficient with that...but I'm sure someone out there knows this...LOL). Thus if you go with a turbo that flows more air and higher levels of boost, you need to reduce compression (especially if you're not on E85 or another blend I'm sure). These "High-Boost" engine kits have a thicker head gasket and slightly longer timing chain which can be installed to lower compression without rebuilding the entire engine and replacing the pistons.

IF I stay LE5 I will probably just build up the engine with forged pistons designed to operate at 9.2:1 compression. If you don't want that expense and still want more power, the "high-Boost" engine kit would be for you. This is also where the argument can be made with sticking with the stock Redline/GXP hot side pipe. If you are wanting more power than what this current build will give, you'll need a different turbo. If you go with a different turbo, the stock Redline/GXP hot pipe may not work and the new turbo may have a new hot pipe designed for use with it in our cars. If you custom built/bought a hot pipe, then that money would eventually be wasted anyway.
06-21-2018 08:07 PM
coothethird Thanks for the thorough response!

Is a stock (gxp/redline) hot side charge pipe worth using? Or should I just get/make a better one while sorting out the cold side pipe?

Do you use your wideband for any data output? Or any data logging? I will probably get a cheap ish one unless there are other reasons to get an aem.

I was definitely looking at an electronic boost controller. Again, I will probably get a cheap ish one.

I think a return fuel system with boost reference is also a good idea. I'm looking at getting a used rail, so I can modify/weld on it and have it ready.

Another question, I have seen a "hi-boost" engine kit. Are these worth doing?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
06-20-2018 11:03 AM
Robotech
Quote:
Originally Posted by coothethird View Post
(1) I would like to rebuild the turbo, or have it rebuilt. I thought about buying a new cartridge and swapping it with the old one. Any advice on a cost effective rebuild or rebuild service would be appreciated.
DDM and RPM Motorsports both offer rebuild services. I believe both also offer the option of increasing the size of the compressor wheel...a so called "big wheel" option. It's $500-700 last time I looked. The turbo is a Borg Warner K04 and is fairly common so you may find a shop local...if you trust them...to rebuild it. Since time isn't critical though I'd send it off to one of our vendors. I have a RPM Motorsports Big Wheel K04 they rebuilt for me...love it and no issues. (Just check your water plugs to make sure they were tightened when it was rebuilt.)

Quote:
(2) Charge pipes. Is it worth it to buy these pre-made? (RPM for example, $450). Or could I achieve a quality result using a diy intercooler tube kits? Is there an optimal place to put the maf? It seems most of the mafs are right before the throttle body.
For charge pipes and intake, only the stock Redline "hot side" charge pipe (this is the pipe on the turbo going to the IC) is the same between both builds. For the intake and the "cold side" charge pipe you need something else other than the Redline charge pipes. On the intake, the differences are the MAF port and the PVC port that runs to the head. On the LE5, you don't need either and so if you USE a stock redline intake, you're going to have to block both those off.

On the "cold side" charge pipe, unless you're good at welding metal tubing, buy a charge pipe. I want to say DDM is aluminum and RPM uses steel but either will work. Just be sure your pipe on the cold side is between 2.75" and 3". Any smaller or larger and your stock LE5 MAF (which will go in this pipe...so you will need a GM MAF bung of the proper tube diameter if you're going to weld this yourself) tables will be WAY off. Martin's tuner HIGHLY suggests not to use anything smaller than a 2.75" pipe here since it will make it easier for you to run off your MAF table.

Quote:
(3) turbo cat/downpipe. I do not need or want a cat, but would run a gutted cat for the time being. What is the most cost effective way to connect the turbo bits to the stock exhaust?
Most cost effective is to find someone with a Redline who has upgraded their stock cat and buy it from them then gut it. It's this or have a muffler shop get the flanges and weld something up but really, probably cost more than buying a stock cat from someone.

Quote:
(4) Stock redline oil lines. I am planning to drill/tap the oil pan (I think that's the stock RL drain to location) so that I can just use the factory drain line. Any reason this is a stupid idea?
Not a stupid idea and really, I kind of wish I had done it. The ONLY drawback to this is that you must be VERY careful when you do it. RPM Motorsports does it this way and after they drill a very small pilot hole, they open it up with a larger drill bit PACKED with grease...not coated...PACKED...and they go VERY SLOWLY. What this does it the aluminum shavings that are coming off your block are caught by the grease in the drill bit. I believe they clean this and repack the bit as necessary as they go. This keeps the shavings out of your oil pan and THAT is the danger here. If you get shavings in there and they go through the oil system, you can have an oil passage blocked, have reduced oiling to part of the engine and have a catastrophic engine failure.

Also, you cannot take the oil pan off the engine while the engine is in the car. You have to remove the engine to remove the oil pan. So unless you're wanting to pull the engine, RPM's method or the DDM kit that sends the oil return line to the front of the engine and into the water pump timing cover are your oil return options.

Quote:
(5) Bolts/fasteners. I do not want to pay the premium price for factory bolts. Any reason that I couldn't just use hardware store fasteners for the brackets? Any special fasteners for the plastic parts?
Not really anything special but really, there are very few nuts and bolts you HAVE to add. The ones on the intercooler brackets to the bumper are nothing special so as long as thread pitch and length are the same you're good. I WOULD, however, STRONGLY suggest to use OEM speed nuts where they are called for. Makes like SO much easier than trying to use regular nuts.

The downpipe to exhaust bolts/studs may break when you remove them because...well...they do that. You can replace them with standard bolts of the same thread pitch as stock IF you're using an OEM cat for your downpipe. If you go aftermarket, you will need bolts AND nuts but they will provide that with the aftermarket cat. The nuts that hold the downpipe to the turbo...THOSE I'd only buy as OEM.

Quote:
(6) Intercooler. What is the most cost effective one to use?
If you can pick up a OEM intercooler used that is in good condition, this is going to be your cheapest option. The eBay ones will require a lot more work to route the charge pipes properly in our cars. the OEM and aftermarket intercoolers for our cars are made to route these charge pipes properly. I think you can pick up the used OEM intercoolers for not much more than you'd pay for the eBay ones and come out ahead money wise since you don't have to build the pipes.

Quote:
(7) fuel system. I am planning on getting some 42 or 60 lb injectors. Still haven't decided which. Any need to change the stock pump, lines, etc?
You're fuel system isn't about going turbo but rather how big will you go in the future. For 7 psi on the LE5 with a K04 turbo you're going to be around 200-220 whp (guessing here as never dynoed when I was at that level) and the 42lb injectors will work fine. If you want to be around 10-12 psi and about 250 whp I would go 60 lb injectors.

FOR ME, my original target was much higher than that. I currently am at about 265 whp on 15 psi and without changing the head gasket, I wouldn't go any more than that. With that, I have 60lb injectors with the RPM in tank fuel pump (greater flow) feeding a modified DDM fuel rail that has been converted to make my fuel system a boost reference return style fuel system incorporating a fuel regulator on the rail that will raise and lower fuel pressure based on intake manifold pressure.

What does that mean and why did I do it? Simple, injectors are rated by how much fuel they flow for a given fuel pressure. HOWEVER, this fuel pressure number ISN'T the fuel pressure of the fuel in the rail but rather the pressure difference between the pressure of the fuel in the rail and the pressure of the chamber they're spraying into. SO, if you have a fuel pressure in the rail of 40psi, and a pressure in the manifold of 0 psi (no boost, no vacuum) then a 60lb injector flows at 60lbs of fuel per minute.

HOWEVER, your intake manifold when you're boosted is not at 0 psi very often. It's either below that (when you're off boost) or above that (when you make boost). So if you're at WOT and say at 10 psi, the pressure that the injectors are now flowing at isn't 40 psi. It's the 40 psi of fuel pressure minus the 10 psi of pressure in the manifold (your boost) and thus your injectors are flowing LESS than 60 lbs/min and thus must be spraying longer to get the same amount of fuel into the manifold.

With a boost reference return system like I have, the fuel regulator also sees what pressure the intake manifold is at and increases or decreases pressure accordingly. Thus, when my system sees 10 psi of boost, the regulator adds 10 psi more pressure to the fuel system. Thus my 60 lbs injectors would flow at 60 lbs/min regardless of how much boost I run because at 10 psi of manifold pressure my fuel pressure is now 50 psi rather than 40 psi and thus the pressure difference remains at 40 psi. (not my real numbers, btw...just for example).

Right now I run about 50 psi of pressure at 0 psi manifold pressure. The other thing this helps with is idle. The bigger injectors are a bit tougher to dial in at idle with the stock system because at idle, you're manifold is under vacuum. This means that 40 psi of pressure difference we talked about before could be 55-65 psi now. With greater pressure, the injectors flow MORE fuel than 60 lb/min and thus it's a bit tougher for the ECM to adjust fueling with the larger injectors. With my system, the fuel pressure at idle is LESS than my 50 psi and thus the ECM doesn't work as hard to maintain a smooth idle.

At my settings, at WOT the injectors are still "on" 70% of the time. When an injector is running at 90% of the time we say they are "maxed" and the user should be using a larger injector. My injectors and system will probably support close to 315 whp which was more inline with my original goal of 400 whp in stages. What I have now is about the furthest you can go on the LE5 with the K04 turbo. She just runs out of breath too soon. I make my max power at only 4600 RPMs.

Believe me, if you've read my build thread then you know I built my system for dirt cheap to start with. Some things you've left off...

A boost controller. Without one you're stuck at 5-6 psi max which is what the factory wastegate spring on the K04 will allow. Mechanical will get you higher but boost WILL drop off with RPM with the K04. I fought this for a LONG time and only with going with an eBoost2 Electronic Boost Controller (about $500 retail but I got mine used because I ball on a budget...homie...LOL) which will compensate for this did I finally fix it (didn't up my WHP max though because of the aforementioned breathing issue with the K04).

Tuning. You HAVE to tune this thing to make it work. This will probably be one of the larger expenses of the whole build. Again, I got lucky here and had friends with HPTuners and knew a bit how to get it in the ball park. This is going to be a $400+ expense depending on which route you go. HOWEVER, make SURE if you buy a tune from somewhere that you buy one where they scan and tune your car rather than a "canned" tune they just put on and say good enough. These LE5 turbo builds are quirky from what I've seen and you want a tune for YOUR setup in YOUR conditions using gas local to you.

Finally but most importantly, a Wide Band O2. We LE5 guys aren't blessed with a Wide Band (WB) O2 from the factory like those LNF (Redline/GXP) guys...jerks (LOL)...so we have to add one to get a proper air/fuel ratio(AFR) reading. You CAN do this build without one but if your wide open throttle (WOT) tuning is off and you're running super lean, you won't really know it without a WB. They're not cheap and you need a gauge pod (which means you can put in a boost gauge...and who wouldn't want to see the boost they added to their LE5, right?) but it is good insurance to make sure you don't make the engine go boom. I have the AEM wide band with gauge and it runs around $300. Well worth it in my opinion.

To me, having that O2 is why my engine is still running strong. I put the turbo on at about 77K miles and have 125K on it now without any major engine issues. All my issues have been little thing with the parts I've added.

Feel free to post more questions here as they come up and good luck with your build.
06-20-2018 09:03 AM
coothethird
Another Le5 Sky turbo add

Hello,

I have started gathering parts to add a turbo to my otherwise stock 2007 sky base (manual). After looking at Robotech's build, I decided I wanted to try it. I have ordered the following:

Used from stock redline:
Turbo
Manifold
Heat shields
Water lines (in and out)
Oil lines (in and out)
Thermostat housing
New:
Bumper braces (left and right)
Facia (plastic tray thing)
Intercooler brackets (left and right)
Front bumper grill air housing

Now come the questions...

(1) I would like to rebuild the turbo, or have it rebuilt. I thought about buying a new cartridge and swapping it with the old one. Any advice on a cost effective rebuild or rebuild service would be appreciated.

(2) Charge pipes. Is it worth it to buy these pre-made? (RPM for example, $450). Or could I achieve a quality result using a diy intercooler tube kits? Is there an optimal place to put the maf? It seems most of the mafs are right before the throttle body.

(3) turbo cat/downpipe. I do not need or want a cat, but would run a gutted cat for the time being. What is the most cost effective way to connect the turbo bits to the stock exhaust?

(4) Stock redline oil lines. I am planning to drill/tap the oil pan (I think that's the stock RL drain to location) so that I can just use the factory drain line. Any reason this is a stupid idea?

(5) Bolts/fasteners. I do not want to pay the premium price for factory bolts. Any reason that I couldn't just use hardware store fasteners for the brackets? Any special fasteners for the plastic parts?

(6) Intercooler. What is the most cost effective one to use?

(7) fuel system. I am planning on getting some 42 or 60 lb injectors. Still haven't decided which. Any need to change the stock pump, lines, etc?



I'm sure there will be more questions coming soon.

Thanks!
Tom

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome