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  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-24-2009 01:01 PM
DS9Yanks The compLAINdoc is in. Why do you keep coming here if you hate everything about this car?! Don't have anything better to do with your life?
06-20-2009 07:10 PM
Lil'Oggi

Unsubscribing this thread.
06-20-2009 10:56 AM
compdoc777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spag View Post
The entire situation is more complicated than how you have presented it.
I think it is quite simple you can't put square pegs in round holes and that is what GM was trying to do.

I don't care who makes the car or who drives it. Its the people at the top making the financial descisions that caused the failure.
06-20-2009 10:10 AM
Spag
Quote:
Originally Posted by snaponbob View Post
As for the "flaming" assertion .... bull. The people at Wilmington built the car. They didn't design it, nor did they create the assembly methodology. Cars are only as good as the design and components. What is often not recognized is the assembly line and how it is used is "designed" as well. If the design of the car, choice of components, and the design of the assembly line/methods don't mesh well, you have water leak, diff issue, crappy door handles, sagging seats, etc. A lot of the responsibility for these problems can't be put on the assembly line workers, so if people are critical of some issues with Kappas there is no reason to assume that they are pointed at line workers at Wilmington.
We are actually in agreement here. The anti-flaming comment was made as a request for us to be respectful towards those who have assembled our cars. They have made significant efforts to welcome the members of this forum, they have shown us the pride that they have in their work and they have been very responsive to any issues that we have brought to them.
06-20-2009 09:48 AM
snaponbob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spag View Post
The entire situation is more complicated than how you have presented it.

Speculation such as this does not really serve any purpose - and "shouting out" the same information again without any substantiation does not increase its validity.

Also - not to single anyone out with this - but this is not a good subject for a flame war... We need to be considerate of the many wonderful people who have welcomed us to MECCA year after year.
I know a few people at the Fairfax plant. A couple are "in the loop" when the efficiency of a plant comes into question. Simply put, the way GM is structured a production level of 30-40,000 units per year is not profitable at lower price points. Corvette makes enough money to justify its existence because the costs are covered in the higher pricing. Kappa were at least as labor intensive that the number of hands and hours killed the profits. Kappas were always "halo" cars and as such served their purpose, were due to "go away" after the 2010 model run, and even if there was going to be a Kappa II there was no guarantee where it would have been built so Wilmington's "life after Kappa" was always a question.

As for the "flaming" assertion .... bull. The people at Wilmington built the car. They didn't design it, nor did they create the assembly methodology. Cars are only as good as the design and components. What is often not recognized is the assembly line and how it is used is "designed" as well. If the design of the car, choice of components, and the design of the assembly line/methods don't mesh well, you have water leak, diff issue, crappy door handles, sagging seats, etc. A lot of the responsibility for these problems can't be put on the assembly line workers, so if people are critical of some issues with Kappas there is no reason to assume that they are pointed at line workers at Wilmington.

Bottom line, a low production, high content, labor intensive, and modestly priced car being built at a high cost facility with expensive labor is the perfect storm for no profits, ESPECIALLY with a fairly high warranty claim rate. My assertion of "poorly built" is not too far off target because it was almost predictable (reread first two paragraphs for reference) given all that was involved. As a former manager once shared with me, "you are perfectly positioned for the results you have obtained".
06-20-2009 12:45 AM
Spag
Quote:
Originally Posted by compdoc777
I just read. But honestly kappa is dead. Why? Because it was loosing money for GM. Since Penske owns the "Saturn and did not continue producing the popular cars the Sky or Pontiacs Solstice. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out WHY! They were LOOSING MONEY. Beyond what has been written in several articals who probably have more credabilty than anyone on this site.
The entire situation is more complicated than how you have presented it.

Speculation such as this does not really serve any purpose - and "shouting out" the same information again without any substantiation does not increase its validity.

Also - not to single anyone out with this - but this is not a good subject for a flame war... We need to be considerate of the many wonderful people who have welcomed us to MECCA year after year.
06-19-2009 11:57 PM
JustMike
Quote:
Originally Posted by compdoc777 View Post
I just read. But honestly kappa is dead. Why? Because it was loosing money for GM. Since Penske owns the "Saturn and did not continue producing the popular cars the Sky or Pontiacs Solstice. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out WHY! They were LOOSING MONEY. Beyond what has been written in several articals who probably have more credabilty than anyone on this site.

I would think it would be to assume it's TRUE!

GM=Failed.

Saturn=Failed.

Both Facts that cannot be disputed.

The grey area between? Who gives a crap!
Dude ... think what you want ... Just don't quote Internet gossip like it is gospel ... what can not be disputed is that GM is in bankruptcy ... everything else is pure speculation on my part and yours ... at least that is how I see it form the cheep seats ...
06-19-2009 11:30 PM
compdoc777
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMike View Post
So again just a statement that "GMI has been told that when the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky came to the market, GM was losing around $10,000 per unit built" .. Told by who? .
I just read. But honestly kappa is dead. Why? Because it was loosing money for GM. Since Penske owns the "Saturn and did not continue producing the popular cars the Sky or Pontiacs Solstice. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out WHY! They were LOOSING MONEY. Beyond what has been written in several articals who probably have more credabilty than anyone on this site.

I would think it would be to assume it's TRUE!

GM=Failed.

Saturn=Failed.

Both Facts that cannot be disputed.

The grey area between? Who gives a crap!
06-19-2009 05:34 PM
SkyVue2
French transmission?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sky in pdx View Post
Only goes in reverse!
That's agood one, but no.






The 5-spd automatic is produced by GM's Strasbourg facility.
06-19-2009 05:18 PM
JustMike
Quote:
Originally Posted by compdoc777 View Post
Let me google that for you
So again just a statement that "GMI has been told that when the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky came to the market, GM was losing around $10,000 per unit built" .. Told by who? Where are the numbers that back up that claim? I'm not saying that they are right and I'm not saying that they are wrong. I'm just saying it does not add up to me is all. At the peak they were running the plant at almost 24X7 to make Kappas ... if really bad business people would not have added two shifts and kept producing cars that lost 10K ... now if you want to talk about a snap shot in time like near the end where demand was low and they were trying to run the line at 4 cars an hour I could see that.

Oh and for the record both you and I know that you can google lots of stuff that is not true.
06-19-2009 05:12 PM
sky in pdx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil'Oggi View Post
French transmission?????????????????
Only goes in reverse!
06-19-2009 05:10 PM
ChgoBlues
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbeardsley View Post
This $10K loss concept has all come from one post at GMInsider.com.
All the other internet "info" on this has used this as their "source".

Unfortunately, the original article on GMInsider never said how or from where that number came from. It just stated this as a "known fact".

At the time, they were the only ones who "knew" it. Now everyone "knows" it because it has been repeated so many times.

I'm not saying that it isn't true (it certainly COULD be true), but I've never seen it attributed to any kind of reliable source.
Exactly. And GMInsider is nothing more than a forum like this. It is not an official GM site. So it's still hearsay until you can cite an official GM source...
06-19-2009 05:00 PM
mbeardsley This $10K loss concept has all come from one post at GMInsider.com.
All the other internet "info" on this has used this as their "source".

Unfortunately, the original article on GMInsider never said how or from where that number came from. It just stated this as a "known fact".

At the time, they were the only ones who "knew" it. Now everyone "knows" it because it has been repeated so many times.

I'm not saying that it isn't true (it certainly COULD be true), but I've never seen it attributed to any kind of reliable source.
06-19-2009 02:48 PM
snaponbob
Quote:
Originally Posted by compdoc777 View Post
Let me google that for you

Solstice/Sky ALREADY done? | WebRidesTV Blog

Why would a seemingly perfect chassis become a financial burden to GM? They claim that each Kappa car was being sold at a $10,000 loss due to the massive labor costs (each Kappa car is still largely handbuilt) as well as expensive materials (hydroforming process… also used by the Corvette).

Report: GM hits brakes on Solstice/Sky replacement: AutoWeek Magazine

With GM losing billions, there's no room for money-losing programs. And the Solstice and Sky platform, named Kappa, reportedly loses an eye-popping $10,000 per car. That's on cars where the sticker price starts around $20,000.

GM Ices Kappa; Losing $10k Per Car on Solstice and Sky | The Truth About Cars
I is really very apparent how hand built Kappas are when one really starts scratching the surface of the car. If Bowling Green built Corvettes this poorly the Corvette would be dead by now. They used to be this bad but as sales flagged and owners bitched, GM "fixed" Corvette.
06-19-2009 01:56 PM
compdoc777
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMike View Post
I realise that everyone is entitled to their opinion but please tell me where you got the facts to back up this claimed loss? Or are you just saying what everyone else has been saying? If it is true then I would really like to see the facts on how the 10K loss was arrived at ... thanks!
Let me google that for you

Solstice/Sky ALREADY done? | WebRidesTV Blog

Why would a seemingly perfect chassis become a financial burden to GM? They claim that each Kappa car was being sold at a $10,000 loss due to the massive labor costs (each Kappa car is still largely handbuilt) as well as expensive materials (hydroforming process… also used by the Corvette).

Report: GM hits brakes on Solstice/Sky replacement: AutoWeek Magazine

With GM losing billions, there's no room for money-losing programs. And the Solstice and Sky platform, named Kappa, reportedly loses an eye-popping $10,000 per car. That's on cars where the sticker price starts around $20,000.

GM Ices Kappa; Losing $10k Per Car on Solstice and Sky | The Truth About Cars
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