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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So your were right to be concerned the engineeres should of know this with there r/d ?

Hate to see what other problems arise with this car but not a good start and news travels fast.

I pulled my order on the gxp too much money to invest for a car that has a few problems but thats me.

But in the long run the ball will be in saturns and gm hands and they will have to deal WITH IT !!
 

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Umm does that mean every diesel car on the planet is broken?? Also this must be your 1st direct injection experience. Most di cars have black soot on the tail pipes. But to each his own. I don't see you ever owning a 1st year car in your future if this is all it takes to scare you away..
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
No not really scared but you might be, just really can't see spending that much money on a car. My last 3 cars were bought at the auction so sometimes i find good deals when i go with my friend who's a dealer.

Only really owned few new cars and trucks but that was back in the day just can t really see spending that much on a car.
By the time you would add tax__ insurance and interest and stuff you be over 40 grand___ then you have to be careful and just not worth to me.
 

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carbon damage.found this on another site

See what you mean,

Causes of Detonation

Trying to isolate a detonation problem in a highly modified or even slightly modified engine requires you to determine if the combustion problem is being caused by a change you made to the engine, is inherent to a design flaw,

or is derived from an external cause such as carbon deposits or poor fuel. Obviously the area with the largest variable is the fuel quality. Octane determines a fuel's ability to resist auto-ignition, or in lay terms, its ability to wait for a spark to initiate a flame. For our purposes we will explore knock independently of fuel octane rating.

When knock occurs, there is uncontrolled combustion with multiple flame fronts, with only one of them being initiated by the spark plug. During knock, cylinder pressures experience an extremely rapid rise and spontaneous burning and release of the end gases' energy. It is not uncommon to see a pressure rise of up to 8 bars per degree of crankshaft angle, or up to 50,000 bars per second. Anything that will either increase heat or retain heat in the combustion chamber will promote auto-ignition.
Common problem areas are sharp edges of metal either on the piston or in the combustion chamber. For instance, if the piston has a valve relief cut into it, there is usually a very defined edge that the cutting tool leaves. This sharp edge is greatly prone to super heating and will actually retain enough heat that it will start to glow. If the fuel should hit this glowing edge either prior to the lighting of the spark plug or even after ignition, it is very likely that another flame front will initiate. If this unintended ignition occurs very early in the compression stroke, then the piston will be forced up against the increased pressure of the burning gas and will result in a form of abnormal combustion referred to as preignition. When this happens, the end result, if severe enough, is that the connecting rods bend. Turbocharged engines are specifically prone this. Carbon deposits that build up in the combustion chamber or on the piston top will have the same effect, along with the decreased volume at TDC, which in turn raises the compression ratio.

As stated earlier, anything that will raise temperatures in the cylinder will help promote detonation. This rise in temperature could occur many different ways: very lean air/fuel ratios, heating of the charge air prior to entering the combustion chamber, compression of the air molecules from forced induction, or poor heat dissipation through the cooling system. Increase of cylinder pressure will also prompt detonation. Camshaft profile, compression ratio and quench area all come into play.

Design criteria as to combustion chamber shape and mixture motion, spark plug location and piston design can all make an engine more or less inherently prone to abnormal combustion. Naturally, spark timing and fuel quality round off the list.

Effects of Detonation

Other than running an engine without oil, there is probably nothing that you can do that is more detrimental to an engine than detonating it. In an ideal combustion cycle there is a controlled burning of the compressed fuel and air, but during detonation there is an exploding of the mixture with a instantaneous release of all its energy, regardless of where the piston is in its stroke. The timing of the auto-ignition will have a direct effect on where the damage takes place.

Detonation very early in the compression stroke is usually the silent killer that goes unheard by the driver. This form of combustion usually results in rotating assembly failure by attacking the connecting rods and bearings. Detonation that comes nearer to TDC or slightly after is usually heard as pinging and will likely result in the burning of the piston or the lifting of the ring land from the piston. The force from the colliding of the multiple flame fronts can be likened to the wake of two boats travelling in opposite directions on a lake. When the two wakes meet, they usually peak and absorb the energy of each other. The more dominant wake will still have some leftover energy and will proceed weakly in its original direction. The same holds true for colliding flame fronts in a cylinder.

If you have one flame initiated at the spark plug and another started independently of the plug, usually the spark-initiated front is the dominant one. As the two flame fronts collide, the pressure in the cylinder rises from the compacting of the molecules. Historically, the normal flame front has enough energy to run over the abnormal one but uses a lot of its energy to do this.

Add to this that the abnormal combustion has consumed a portion of the combustible mixture that filled the cylinder, and the least result is a loss of power, if not a damaged engine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
yes i agree carbon build up is a problem, but mr no options (maybe get a part time or 2nd job ) thinks otherwise but he must not know any better.
 

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found this just now on another site

Some guy asked this question:

All I read about now is the running rich problem does this mean that they fixed the air intake issue.

Does anyone know how realistic the October 10th deadline to try to restart production really is. All i can say is the engineers better be working on the weekends.


The other guys answer:

The running rich problem means that the air to fuel ratio is rich or in lay mans terms, there is more gas being put into the engine than it needs while running. This causes the engine to produce soot becuase the fuel is not being burned correctly. If the the fuel ratio is to high, the cylinder walls will have the oil film washed away and can cause premature wear on the engine and in exterm cases, the engine can lockup/freeze.


Does not sound good no matter how you look at it.
 

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also found this info for you to read

Seems the answers to that very question of black soot at the rear tail piece, and how much carbon built up will be in my internal engine, will the engine be damaged is something no one on this forum can answer. That answer will have to come from the engineers that designed the engine and turbo, or from an equal type of vehicle that has had the same exact problems. This type of turbo has been out for quite a while, PT cruiser has something very similar maybe somewhere out in Cyberspace has some testing and information on this very issue. With all the testing that is done before the car goes into production they have to test for horse power to verify that what they advertise is correct, its hard to believe that now there is a problem. You have two choices wait for GM Saturn to fix the problem or sell the car it's really as simple as that! I personally don't care for the DOD "displacement on demand engine", so I did not buy the Impala SS we all have choices in life.
 

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Thank god for 100k warranty.

The problem will be resolved shortly, any retrofit will go out to dealers for ones already delivered(MIne Include). I don't no about Pontiac rep for service but Saturn was able to sell crappy cars that were plain on the backs of extreme service. If my engine blows up i know i will have no problem having Saturn back it up. 10years 100,000 miles is alot of time and miles. I think it will be pushing it if I get 50,000 in 10 years ( it just isn't a everyday car). You say your scared of putting out 30,000 for a car, what are you afraid of?
100,000 10year warranty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
eye

Dude not scared, if you would take off your tutu and read my post slower you might figure it out.

I said DON T think there is a car made out there that would spend 40 grand on but that's me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
THEY advertise these car for 19,995 and when everything is said and done they cost 40 grand by the time you finish signing your name.

The car is nice don't get me wrong i just don't spend money like that on a car__ that's all.
 

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The problem will be resolved shortly, any retrofit will go out to dealers for ones already delivered(MIne Include). I don't no about Pontiac rep for service but Saturn was able to sell crappy cars that were plain on the backs of extreme service. If my engine blows up i know i will have no problem having Saturn back it up. 10years 100,000 miles is alot of time and miles. I think it will be pushing it if I get 50,000 in 10 years ( it just isn't a everyday car). You say your scared of putting out 30,000 for a car, what are you afraid of?
100,000 10year warranty.
Ummm, Scott...it's 5 years/100k miles...not 10 years. :thumbs:
 

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ThanKs Linda

I was tired when writting. Haybu so why did you even order the car it was the same price before the problem. if you wouldn't pay that much for any car as you stated, ur medication must be failing.
 

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Some guy asked this question:

All I read about now is the running rich problem does this mean that they fixed the air intake issue.

Does anyone know how realistic the October 10th deadline to try to restart production really is. All i can say is the engineers better be working on the weekends.


The other guys answer:

The running rich problem means that the air to fuel ratio is rich or in lay mans terms, there is more gas being put into the engine than it needs while running. This causes the engine to produce soot becuase the fuel is not being burned correctly. If the the fuel ratio is to high, the cylinder walls will have the oil film washed away and can cause premature wear on the engine and in exterm cases, the engine can lockup/freeze.


Does not sound good no matter how you look at it.
I hate to tell you guys but I don't think the running rich stopped production. It was the condensation problem that stopped the production. The running rich from what I was told was a easy fix and no big thing.

So why are so many worried about something that isn't the main problem.

And yes the are saying middle of October for production to start. They will run some test cars before they start production though. The fix is in already.

Then once your car is made expect a LONG QC inspection.
 

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THEY advertise these car for 19,995 and when everything is said and done they cost 40 grand by the time you finish signing your name.

The car is nice don't get me wrong i just don't spend money like that on a car__ that's all.
The Red Line and GXP isn't even close to 40,000 out the door even loaded . And you were talking the Base being 40,000.00 ???? Where did you get these figures ????:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And if someone pays 38,000.00 for this car because they paid a premium it's there fault. That isn't what the car cost.
 

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hayabusa, for the record i do have a couple of jobs already. Also the fact that I have no options is not due to financial restraint. There simply are no options that I want, Chrome rims + blah I have bought aftermarket rims for every car I have ever owned. Monsoon stereo = no thanks I have put an aftermarket stereo in every car ive ever owned. I believe I remember you praising the car when you drove your brothers now you noticed the tailpipe is black and you assume its the end of the world. Also my out the door price with tax title and license is under 31000.00 and what car do you not need insurance on??? so where is this 40k coming from. So mr wont buy a new car why dont you get a 2nd or part time job.
 

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hayabusa, for the record i do have a couple of jobs already. Also the fact that I have no options is not due to financial restraint. There simply are no options that I want, Chrome rims + blah I have bought aftermarket rims for every car I have ever owned. Monsoon stereo = no thanks I have put an aftermarket stereo in every car ive ever owned. I believe I remember you praising the car when you drove your brothers now you noticed the tailpipe is black and you assume its the end of the world. Also my out the door price with tax title and license is under 31000.00 and what car do you not need insurance on??? so where is this 40k coming from. So mr wont buy a new car why dont you get a 2nd or part time job.
The only options are the radio, leather seats, chrome wheels (polished will hold up better in the long run) and xm. If you don't like leather seats and are getting different rims and a radio anyway why the heck would this kid imply that you need a second job to pay for it? I did get most of the options and I came in at just under $32k including tax title and all that nonsense. I didn't get XM and after seeing how a previous new GM car I bought 3 years ago's chrome is beginning to peel I didn't get the chrome rims. Maybe I need a second job so I could get options I don't want just so some kid on the internets doesn't make fun of me? :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
What i was trying to say was when the car first came out they would advertise for the 19,995. but all the car makers know most people would add this and that and by the time you are done most cars cost way more which is true with all car companys.

But when i came up with the 40 grand figure i was adding the tax and interest on the loan and collision insurance etc. Which some of you would say is unfair but when i add things up i add those kind of figures to my purchase.

like i said my last 3 cars where bought from the auction so been while since i purchase a new car and the last vechicle i bought new was like 7 grand plus tax so i guess i never really spend big money on a car anyways but like i stated thats me

I could buy the car cash tommorow if i wanted to but thats no big deal___ maybe thats why i have some bank. LOL

Must be nice to buy a car for that kind of money and not think twice but i work hard for mine so yes__ i think alot about a purchase of this kind i guess more then most people of this site.

Yes i did test drive the car but only near my house never was able to drive the car after break in. yes i agree with what i posted on my early statement. But for me to spend the 40 grand well that would take alot and since i would really spead my money out a little__ and not tie up on one large purchase i guess but thats me not a knock on anybody else.

no base was talking gxp.
 
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