Saturn Sky Forum banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have yet to see airbags deploy in a crash. Ever.

Look at these... A few are head-ons.





 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,922 Posts
I have yet to see airbags deploy in a crash. Ever.

......
This is a pretty old topic that has been discussed fairly extensively. A few points:
  • The cars offered at auction are generally those considered rebuildable, and a crash severe enough to deploy airbags is likely to make reuilding infeasible.
  • Crash data (through 2018 I think) for Kappa incidents involving fatalities does not suggest that any of them that did not have had airbag deployment should have
  • Driver-side airbag deployments have been documented, and previous concerns have mainly been about passenger airbag deployments
  • Most severe Kappa incidents are driver-only
  • Most severe Kappa incidents involve a rollover or side impact as the primary factor
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
This is a pretty old topic that has been discussed fairly extensively. A few points:
  • The cars offered at auction are generally those considered rebuildable, and a crash severe enough to deploy airbags is likely to make reuilding infeasible.
  • Crash data (through 2018 I think) for Kappa incidents involving fatalities does not suggest that any of them that did not have had airbag deployment should have
  • Driver-side airbag deployments have been documented, and previous concerns have mainly been about passenger airbag deployments
  • Most severe Kappa incidents are driver-only
  • Most severe Kappa incidents involve a rollover or side impact as the primary factor
You're not paying attention.

You write:

  • The cars offered at auction are generally those considered rebuildable, and a crash severe enough to deploy airbags is likely to make reuilding infeasible.
How is this rebuildable?


I see unrebuildable cars often. Even ones completely burned at copar and iiia.

What auction site are you referring to?

  • Driver-side airbag deployments have been documented, and previous concerns have mainly been about passenger airbag deployment
Show us the documentation of a single instance of a Sky driver-side airbag deployment.

  • Most severe Kappa incidents are driver-only
  • Most severe Kappa incidents involve a rollover or side impact as the primary factor
All the links in the OP are front-end. Not rollover. Why are you going there?

o Crash data (through 2018 I think) for Kappa incidents involving fatalities does not suggest that any of them that did not have had airbag deployment should have

Shall we believe our own eyes or a 2018 break out of crash-data that someone thinks about?

o This is a pretty old topic that has been discussed fairly extensively.

No. Most conversations are about the passenger airbag recalls.

You're dismissing the issue. And bluffing that you know all about it when most your bullet points don't apply.

Don't get me wrong. I love my car. And he likelihood of my getting into an accident is small.

For me it isn't an issue tha would keep me from buying a Sky.

But it is what it is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
I have been hunting down a roof assembly for my Sky searching car-part.com and alot of the pictures do show airbag deployment. I'm not an engineer and I'm not going to pretend to be one either so I'm not sure what is the threshold for airbag deployment vs not, but obviously some of these cars have reached that threshold. This is just going down the list of listings that have pictures within 200 miles of my location.

And here are some where it didn't deploy
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,922 Posts
You're not paying attention.
.....
I have downloaded data from NHTSA for all fatalities involving Kappas from the first car sold through 2018. That data includes complete incident reports (as available) including sequence of events, airbag deployment, number of occupants, contributing factors, other vehicles, etc. Nothing that i saw in that data suggests that an airbag didn't deploy when it should have.

My contention is that if someone didn't die because the airbag didn't deploy, then that airbag shouldn't have deployed. I will further say that looking at the resulting damage in a few pictures will not necessarily give you a good indication of the severity of the crash.

There are between 5,000 and 7,000 Skys sold that are no longer on the road. What percentage of those have you looked at?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Emm

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,292 Posts
You're not paying attention.

Shall we believe our own eyes or a 2018 break out of crash-data that someone thinks about?

o This is a pretty old topic that has been discussed fairly extensively.

No. Most conversations are about the passenger airbag recalls.
This EXACT conversation is what initiated me to do the research that lead to the passenger side airbag recall...so yes, it HAS been discussed a lot here, you just haven't found the conversation yet.

In THAT conversation there were several pictures of drivers side airbag deployment only and several like yours with no deployment. @skersfan proposed the exact same argument that you are...that the airbag system itself is faulty. It went that we all acknowledged the passenger sensor was bad but the whole system being a failure was debatable. I proposed no one had ever proven the passenger airbag sensor was truly a widespread failure or just a perceived one so I went about to find out how big the passenger sensor issue was. The results of that I'll let speak for itself.

During my research, I could find very little information regarding details of accidents as I eventually was looking for incidents of a car having two passengers and only one airbag deployment. I could find none. Most airbag deployments involved cars with only the driver in the car. The very few non-airbag deployment incidents I could find were either roll overs or accidents where the initial damage was not a front end impact.

I wouldn't trust your own eyes and data is only as good as you interpret it.

If we believe John's number of 5-7000 Skys not on the road (and I only say it that way because he didn't post a source and I haven't researched those numbers to verify it but know John usually doesn't throw around stats haphazardly LOL), you have shown 5 examples. Your eyes have only seen 5 examples and are basing your opinion on just those 5 examples. I have seen more than 5 other examples showing driver's side airbag and 2 more showing both air bag deployment. In addition to your examples, I have seen a couple images of no airbag deployment where a deployment could reasonably expected to occur.

Thus when you say you have never seen one with any airbag deployment and state they never deploy because of it but I have seen where they have, I'd say your eyes can't be trusted and your data collecting skills are lacking. Not meaning to be offensive, but just saying I know the data is out there, it can be found, I have found it easily, and my effort was only half hearted because air bag deployment statistics were not the focus of my research.

I would also like to know why you dismiss research from 2018? The cars were produced from 2005 until 2009. Thus from the time production ceased this research would cover 9-12 years of crash data. I am willing to bet that is a lot more than the 5 cars of your research. The larger your sample pool the more complete your data set is and the better your data set the better able one can ascertain meaningful interpretation of the data.

Now, if you are putting forth the argument that as the cars age there is something that degrades in the airbag system that results in a non-deployment then you will need data from the last two years to compare it to the data from the 2018 study to see if the trend in deployments has changed. It will take more than five cars to make that comparison though.

You also forget (or may not be aware) that this topic was heavily debated when the GM ignition switch recall was in full effect back in 2012-14. In that recall, extensive research was done into the function of the airbag system since the ignition issue WOULD disable the airbag system completely. They researched incidents that they deemed should have deployed the airbags but didn't and looked to find out if the ignition issue was responsible for those incidents or not. In that recall no widespread failure of the airbag system to deploy was uncovered other than the ignition issue if my memory serves correctly.

So if you really believe there to be a problem, do the proper research and get back to us. If you think you are going to persuade this group of your claim with just a handful of images, you really don't know this group very well...
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,292 Posts
I have yet to see airbags deploy in a crash. Ever.

Look at these... A few are head-ons.





So I looked at all your examples. None should have triggered an airbag deployment since they are not major collisions. In all of them, the front frame rails and bumper structure are undamaged. This section of the car is the primary energy absorbing component of the car and is where the front airbag deceleration sensors are located. Since the impact was away from these areas, an impact of a force to cause considerable injury would be all the way back to the windshield since the hood alone isn't very good and absorbing large amounts of energy. In the example you have where the hood is missing, you can see the hood hinges are fairly properly aligned meaning the hood on that car wasn't hit hard enough to cause them major damage...and they aren't hard to bend.

Just because a car is deemed "totaled" doesn't mean the accident was catastrophic and should have required an airbag deployment. You could total a Pinto with a heavy shopping cart. If the cost to repair it exceeds the cost to repair it, it's totaled. Look up the price for a hood and a bumper cover for our cars. Now two of those three examples look like base models. So figure unless they are low mileage cars, a base runs $5-9k in value and a Redline $6-11K. On the Redline cars, factor in charge pipes and possibly an intercooler into part costs. Now find out how much it is to paint a hood and bumper cover. At that point you will probably be in the $4k range and not have factored in labor to put those parts on or any other number of other small items (headlights, brackets, etc) that may also need replacement.

It is not hard to total our cars these days.

Now the argument could be made that the airbags SHOULD deploy in the examples you posted. Keep in mind though that the airbags are only ONE PART of the safety devices in modern cars and the goal is to limit serious occupant injury. If the occupants of vehicle in these incidents were wearing their seatbelts as they should and received no major injuries that the installed airbags would have prevented, then no airbag deployment was necessary and the airbag system worked in a proper manner. Airbag replacement will total a car like ours and if they deployed when not needed this would be a bad thing too. So you have to find incidents where the passengers had been injured severely, the airbags didn't deploy, the impact was a front end impact, AND that the deployment of the airbags would have prevented the serious injuries to the occupants. At that point you have a real issue that would need to be addressed.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,922 Posts
The source of the numbers that I used is explained here: How many are left?

Nothing official, of course, but a consensus of several sources, so I feel reasonably confident about it.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,292 Posts
The source of the numbers that I used is explained here: How many are left?

Nothing official, of course, but a consensus of several sources, so I feel reasonably confident about it.
Like I said, you don't through numbers like that around haphazardly. LOL I figured you had a source and a decent one at that. Those kinds of numbers will never be exact but that's some good research and is probably as close as we'll get.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
First, let me be clear that I am no expert.

I quickly reviewed some of the examples given for non-deployed driver air bags and they all have one thing in common. The front bumper framing appears to be undamaged or minimally damaged. This implies a soft hit (or slowed-down hit) above the bumper resulting in the shearing of non-structural parts. In order for the air bag to deploy, the car has to come to a more abrupt stop.

I don't know if all air bag sensor are this way, but I once read there is a floating piece of metal inside that is held in place magnetically. The switch activates the airbag only when the impact is sudden enough to overcome the magnetic grip. So in the examples I looked at, their soft hit seemingly did not overcome that magnetic grip.

If you put a perfect Sky in a front/rear crusher and start the process, the air bags won't deploy because of the lack of a sudden impact.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,292 Posts
First, let me be clear that I am no expert.

I quickly reviewed some of the examples given for non-deployed driver air bags and they all have one thing in common. The front bumper framing appears to be undamaged or minimally damaged. This implies a soft hit (or slowed-down hit) above the bumper resulting in the shearing of non-structural parts. In order for the air bag to deploy, the car has to come to a more abrupt stop.

I don't know if all air bag sensor are this way, but I once read there is a floating piece of metal inside that is held in place magnetically. The switch activates the airbag only when the impact is sudden enough to overcome the magnetic grip. So in the examples I looked at, their soft hit seemingly did not overcome that magnetic grip.

If you put a perfect Sky in a front/rear crusher and start the process, the air bags won't deploy because of the lack of a sudden impact.
You are correct that the impact has to meet a certain deceleration threshold and the kinds of hits in these examples probably didn't meet that threshold.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Well...this one deployed the airbags.
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top