Saturn Sky Forum banner

1 - 20 of 72 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,274 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
As most know I started a project in middle January to upgrade the performance of my Sky. I ordered a turbo upgrade and it took months and months months for it to finnaly arrive. Then after several/many calls to the vendor we got information on it and instructions on what to do to make it run. Near the middle of June we finally got the car to run, but Robotech was afraid of the car blowing up with too much knock. It was terrible. At the National I met Dave of Performance Auto Works, who was actually able to tune the car so it would run, but continued to throw codes, but was at least able to drive it at the National one day. Brought it home and put it away. Too much drama for too many months. Was tired of it.

Towards the end of August got it back out and worked with Dave and Robotech to get the car to run properly. Several small changes were made, but not really any improvement in what I would call regular performance. Car was running too rich in one area, too lean in another. Car popped and backfired continously, idle would change from 2000 to 800 to 1400. Engine light would come on after it had been driven and hour or so. It was terrible. This went on for a few weeks with different tunes being supplied by Dave. I am sure it was frustrating for him as well as Robo and myself.

But Thursday we replaced one of the MAP sensors and the car started to run much better. Still throwing a code, P1106 I think it is. But the car was driveable, seemed to have a vibration and was extremely loud. Idle was close to 1000. It was worlds better, but not right.

This morning Robo drove up to my place and we down loaded another tune from Dave at PAW. The car instantly started running smoother, no backfires, and very little if any vibration. It was truly what I had expected when I started this. There is still a code, but Robo feels that Dave can fix that.

I want to thank Dave and Robo for all their efforts on this. I am not sure it is what I want from my car, and there is a very good chance I will return it to stock with a Trifecta tune. I will make that decision after the next tune, and then driving it on 243 to see how it performs in the twisties. It does have more lag than the stock turbo, not a lot, but not sure how that will translate under pressure.

It has been a long drawn out process. If you are considering doing some thing similar, I welcome you to PM me for complete details and things I have learned thru this process.

Again Thanks to Performance Auto Werks, and of course Robotech.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,215 Posts
This is not a big wheel K04. This is a different setup all together.

The error code is P0106 which is the upper MAP sensor. I believe this is the sensor the ECM uses to control boost level. I believe Skersfan had a problem with the car again this morning but I have a feeling this upper O2 needs to be replaced. He went to the new 3 bar sensors but we had some problems with the install (harness adapter wired wrong and Dave at PAW took care of that for us then we had some sealing issues...) but thought we had it resolved. The P0106 error though had me wondering. I have a feeling we have a bad sensor.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,274 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I truly thought I was buying the big wheel set up. But turned out I wasn't. My mistake in ordering the wrong thing, but not my fault on what has happened since that date. I would never recommend this to any one. Over my ability, my mechanics ability, and no real way of telling exactly what is wrong. I have a hard time believing the third set of sensors are bad. Feel the wrong plug and play wiring may have caused the orginal problem, but it should be corrected by now. Car runs great for about 100 miles then goes in the crapper. Idle all over the place, popping and backfiring. It develops a droning sound that is absolutely unbearable.

This was not purchased from Performance Auto Werks, but Dave has bent over backwards trying to make it work. When it is running, it develops a little more performance than the base trifecta tune I think, but certainly not worth the amount of money I spent on it or the frustration it has caused. I am more worried about it blowing my car up than anything else. I am sure it has burnt the exhaust system up on the car, most likely the cat will start throwing codes soon. We have one more shot at it this week. If it doesn't run right, it is all coming off and going to the junk pile. I would never sell it to anyone as I would not want to stick anyone with this mess. I have been messing with it for 9 months, and nothing seems to fix it. I had a perfect running car, never any codes, and then I did this to it. I am hoping we get it figured out. But I highly doubt it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,325 Posts
Remind me which turbo you ended up with.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,586 Posts
I truly thought I was buying the big wheel set up. But turned out I wasn't. My mistake in ordering the wrong thing, but not my fault on what has happened since that date. I would never recommend this to any one. Over my ability, my mechanics ability, and no real way of telling exactly what is wrong. I have a hard time believing the third set of sensors are bad. Feel the wrong plug and play wiring may have caused the orginal problem, but it should be corrected by now. Car runs great for about 100 miles then goes in the crapper. Idle all over the place, popping and backfiring. It develops a droning sound that is absolutely unbearable.

This was not purchased from Performance Auto Werks, but Dave has bent over backwards trying to make it work. When it is running, it develops a little more performance than the base trifecta tune I think, but certainly not worth the amount of money I spent on it or the frustration it has caused. I am more worried about it blowing my car up than anything else. I am sure it has burnt the exhaust system up on the car, most likely the cat will start throwing codes soon. We have one more shot at it this week. If it doesn't run right, it is all coming off and going to the junk pile. I would never sell it to anyone as I would not want to stick anyone with this mess. I have been messing with it for 9 months, and nothing seems to fix it. I had a perfect running car, never any codes, and then I did this to it. I am hoping we get it figured out. But I highly doubt it.
Sorry to see that, Bob. :frown: It's one of the reasons mine is not modified.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,274 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Life is a learning adventure. Unfortunately I learned this 50 years ago, blowing apart 427's and Hemi's. Should have known better.

Today we think we have figured out some of the problem. Vaccuum in the engine is too high, possibly being caused by the oil catch can, I think is what Curtis said. I drove it this evening up 243 and it ran fine. Will drive it tomorrow and see if the magical code throwing bug is still with me. When it was running right tonight, it was impressive, but have seen this before, so want to wait a couple of days before celebrating anything. Did notice that the blow off valve sounded completely different tonight. Wasn't constantly wobblingy is the best I can describe it.

In honesty Elf I really don't know what I have. I don't think anyone does. It certainly does not look stock in any aspect.

Bill, not sure, but I think it is a 2871? I can send some pictures, but there wasn't a single thing at the National that looked like it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,274 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Thanks Bill, I promise I will learn this time. I don't have the ability to work on this newer age stuff. Never really wanted to. And still don't. Just want to turn the key and drive the car, and not have a check engine light come on. I know some of you guys live for the modding and messing with the performance of these things. Just knowing that I had a great car, that was near perfect in every aspect, and did this to it makes me sick. I know I have done damage to it, and that was not my intention. No your limits has been driven home with this escapade for certain.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,377 Posts
Can you post some pictures of your engine bay?

One the main differences between a BorgWarner turbo and a Garret Turbo is how they vent.
BW uses an internal bypass valve whereas Garret turbos require an external blow of valve.

Depending on what you have will help identify at least the brand of turbo

I hear ya loud and clear on just enjoying the car.
I have only done 2 mods on my Alfa. Wheel spacers and tinted turn signals.
The engine trans tuning suspension brakes and tires are perfect. No need for me to fawk it up
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,215 Posts
Can you post some pictures of your engine bay?

One the main differences between a BorgWarner turbo and a Garret Turbo is how they vent.
BW uses an internal bypass valve whereas Garret turbos require an external blow of valve.

Depending on what you have will help identify at least the brand of turbo

I hear ya loud and clear on just enjoying the car.
I have only done 2 mods on my Alfa. Wheel spacers and tinted turn signals.
The engine trans tuning suspension brakes and tires are perfect. No need for me to fawk it up
Don't think it's a Garret but he's got a Synaps BOV on it. It was the Turbo DDM was selling for a while that was an upgrade from the K04 I believe.

One main issue the car has is a P0106 error code and assorted airflow codes. I don't know what skersfan changed in the vacuum routing but he hasn't mentioned any issues since that. I keep coming back to a sensor issue since all the symptoms and the codes would lead me to believe something in the airflow would lead me to believe either there is a vac leak or the ECM is getting values from the sensors which are causing the problems with the way it's running.

We did a scan and everything looked great except about 3* of KR at the top of third which would decay off like it should. Then the car goes possessed which tells me something is changing between when I scan it and when it goes bonkers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,377 Posts
That's the Garret Hybrid 2871 Turbo.
It's actually a pretty awesome turbo for our cars. It's the stock exhaust side of the stock turbo, which is machined so that it can be coupled with the compressor side of a Garrett 2871 turbo.
It maintains the dual scroll and stock manifold, but adds some serious top end potential and can push some serious air.
I was pushing 44lb/min of air through that bad boy when I was running it with E47. I could also do a sub 4 second 60-100 pull.
It's equivalent to an EFR 6258 and is a nice combination of added power without introducing a lot of additional lag.

If you can get it ironed out, I will say, it was my favorite setup on my sky.
I attached a screen shot of HP Tuners during one of my hellish pulls. This was a split second before I shifted from 3rd to 4th.
>:)
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,377 Posts
I did have issues with the DDM Catch Can and finally scraped it. It just did not do anything and I had a ton of oil in my intercooler pipes. I finally went with a Powell PCV Oil Separator which is paper based like an oil filter. They are the guys that raced the Cobalt. I found out about them from the Cobalt forum. Once I installed it, I finally had dry IC Pipes.

I'd say, eliminate the catch can for now to take 1 thing out of the equation. You also might want to do a boost test to see if there are any leaks
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,274 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Unfortunately I did not get by the shop today, so the car did not get driven the required 60-80 miles. We did clear all the codes again last night, so will check to see if there are pending codes before we drive it or install the new tune. I was impressed with it yesterday on 243, but if it is going to run like that, it will take time to learn to drive it again. It does make a dramatic difference. But driving it several times it runs good, then runs bad, or prior to the codes going you can't really know what is going to happen. Scream or fall on its face kinda deal. I hope we have found the problem. Thanks Elf for your comments and ideas/information.

I need to have it running this weekend, as we have our Palm Springs run next weekend. I don't want to deal with problems for 250 miles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,377 Posts
I helped a local guy swap in a new engine in his solstice.
He has my powell catch can and this turbo and its running great.

Once you get the gremlins out, its a set it and forget it deal. Just dont raise your rpm limits like I did.
Its fun, but the stock top cant handle it.

Good luck. I think you are approaching light at the end of the tunnel
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,274 Posts
Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Yea we put a breather on the catch can, oil just poured out of it. Never had a drop before the turbo upgrade. We messed with it all day. I think the plug and play wires that were wired wrong have caused problems in the ecm. Not an electronics expert by any means but when you cross wire something, normally their is a price to pay somewhere. Today we loaded the new tune and turned the lap top off/disconnected it frome the port and the service air bag light came on?

The car runs perfectly for awhile, but the codes for the MAP sensor are almost intantly in pending errors (as I understand it) The car runs fine for awhile then the engine light comes on. The changes in sound and we seem to have exhaust leaks. The car goes from running at 192 to 212 just idling and the fan goes to full throttle, but shuts off when you turn the car off. It has never done that before. The car in four years never had a code.

I wanted to order the Powell item, but really do not think the problem is there. It has to be a leak some where, and the computer trying to compentsate for the error. The car is impressive when it is running right. But when the code comes on the cars just changes. It does not go into limp mode. Robo thinks he figured something out today. Thinks possibly the perimiters can be changed by the tune. I don't know a thing about this stuff, so it is painful for me. I don't like running my car this hard to do the logs. Doing this now for almost 4 months is just too long to be good for a car.

But according to Robo the tune is perfect, no knock, runs fantastically, then he leaves and the car goes F you and does its fun stuff . lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,377 Posts
Venting to air on a catch can does not work on our cars. Had a similar discussion on the Kappa Performance forum. The guy was draining his oil via the vent.

What would be really helpful would be logs from when it starts running bad. If you could hook the laptop up and go for a drive with the Scanner on that could show a whole bunch of information. if the AFR is bouncing all over the place, that would show you have an air leak as the computer would be trying to compensate for that. It also show a bunch of other parameters.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,274 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Elf, does this turbo require the oil catch can. Seems like a lot of oil coming out the filter we installed. It does not have an opening for it like the stock turbo, so will need to go into the intake tube correct, with a barb to attach the vent from the back of the cam cover? to eliminate it I guess. No chance to drive it today, will work on it tomorrow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,377 Posts
It is not required, but please read the following explanation from the Powell PCV Oil Separator instructions.
Please pay special attention to the last sentence
which is why I keep telling you to eliminate your vent to air filter.

Powell PCV Oil Seperator directions said:
Please understand that for the LNF group, there is a WORLD WIDE issue with most every direct injection gasoline engine with inlet valve coking. Basically, excess oil in the PCV system ends up being deposited on the inlet valves, and with DI unlike port injection, there is no “washing” of the inlet valves with a fuel air charge.

There is no one single solution, although we have found good gains with the PCV upgrade so far. There are other important things to consider. The suggested changes for your car include:

• using low ash engine oil
• change in your driving routine, avoiding low rev/high boost driving.
• always use tier one gasoline
• always use 93 octane or better


• Some of our customers and friends have fresh clean valves in their cars thanks to warranty, and if not, a borescope snapshot of what they look like

For the record, proper installation of any catch can or PCV upgrade is important. A catchcan on the fresh air side is silly.

For the LNF, the OEM system has:
• On the fresh air side running post filter and pre turbo impeller; a check valve in the hose (thats the orifice) and it lets air in to the engine. This inlet air path goes directly to the base of the engine and is sealed from the upper cylinder head.

• There is another vent route out through the head into the inlet manifold. There is a check valve in the inlet manifold vent path, so the engine on vacuum ( off boost) can breathe fumes into the inlet manifold. The check valve there closes the moment the inlet is not pulling vacuum.



• There is a vent tube with an internal orifice on the dirty side, it vents to the turbo on the intake side.

• There is a “floor” in the dirty side route in the rocker cover with horizontal seperators

Catch cans without a seperator in two chambers really just become an accumulator of oil.
The idea is for the oil laden air on the dirty side to pass through the media ( or spill plates) so the air can leave the oil behind and then be sent on to the original routing.

Then the question is, what to do with the accumulated oil? it needs a place to go, and draining it after every track session or every week on the street onto your driveway or into a plastic bottle is not a good way to do it.


• I have a way and it makes the system better, while preserving the stock PCV operation which is very important.
If you vent the pcv to atmosphere with a filter like a hot rod vent cap, all bets are off and the pcv system will not work at all as intended
 
1 - 20 of 72 Posts
Top