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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone know if Bill Hahn is OK?

I paid for an intercooler on December 11 (out of stock but new ones being produced the following week), and Bill sent me a UPS tracking number on December 13. However, the package was never tendered to UPS. It's been 7 days, and despite numerous emails (to both sales and shipping email addresses) and phone messages, I have received no response.

Does anybody have any insight? Aubrey? Adam?
 

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Christmas...


Normal UPS shipping time from FL to CA is 6 business days. That means if it did ship on the 13th it still wouldn't be to you by the 20th.


And that's assuming UPS hasn't lost the package somewhere along the way in the busiest shipping time of the year.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
To close the circle, below was my response to her/their request for me to write a complimentary note on this forum. I never heard back. I realize mistakes are a part of life, but the trick is to address them promptly and in a decent manner. I'm sure Hahn's products are excellent. However, timeliness, customer service and systems are sorely deficient.


I would have considered doing so if he had:

- Picked up the phone to speak with me

- Apologized for someone in the organization not following up on a single one of my messages, not even to tell me that there were medical issues and you would not be able to give any attention to my order for, say, 7-10 days

- Investigated the shipping issue or filed a claim with UPS after many days of it not ever being scanned anywhere in the UPS system. While I'm not saying UPS is infallible, I have never lost a UPS package (sent or received) in 25 years, even the very demanding global leader in logistics (Amazon) sees fit to partner with UPS, and surely it would have been registered somewhere in the system after 9 days of supposedly being picked up by UPS.

- Provided proof of UPS picking it up. Whose word would you trust? UPS with its aforementioned reliability and robust systems or Hahn whose website had trouble creating a customer account, whose email system goes haywire, and whose voicemails go ignored? My guess is you shipped my IC to another customer, or it never left your premises and it will show up in your inventory.

- Had a follow-up conversation with the regular UPS driver to inquire what might have happened, then relayed that info to me

- Offered a meaningful gesture of goodwill (expedited delivery, free plugs, monetary discount, etc.)

By the way, the plugs were supposed to have been shipped with the IC to avoid separate shipping charge. Ask Bill about that. I guess the "lost" package apparently did not contain the plugs, which is so picayune since I never received the promised invoice for the plugs and no-one responded to my voicemails and emails following Bill's voicemail to me on December 17 at 9:23 a.m. (my first call back was 1.5 minutes after he left that voicemail) asking you to call me so I could either give you my credit card number or pay you via PayPal.

It is clear from your tone in earlier emails that you believe me to be the villain [for reversing the credit card charge], yet you take no responsibility whatsoever for your negligence, non-responsiveness, and failure to investigate. Bill clearly did not communicate with you all that had transpired between us; perhaps that should not be a surprise given how poorly your organization has communicated with me.

It is also telling that you only finally decided to communicate with me after learning that I had asked the credit card company to reverse the charge due to non-delivery and inability to contact the vendor. A customer should not have to jump through these sorts of hoops. I am very sympathetic with those who have medical issues and/or have loved ones who do as I, too, have been in similar situations. But there are more than 2 of you in the company, and someone should have responded at the very least out of courtesy.

I thoroughly enjoyed my early conversations with Bill and appreciated his insight on a range of issues dealing with the Sky. Furthermore, a friend of mine, who happens to be a frequent contributor to the forum and whose advice I trust, has a Hahn IC in his Sky and remains pleased with it. It is for these reasons that I chose Hahn over a competitor with whom I have previously done business, despite Hahn's price being $75 higher (even after the discount) and estimated delivery date being 8 days longer. Your engineering expertise is excellent. But, as it turns out, your systems (phone, web, and e-mail) and customer service call for significant improvement.

Enough said. I will write that you bent over backwards or went above and beyond when I believe you have done so. You seem to think I should be jumping for joy that Bill deigns to honor the original price and take a credit card when, in fact, at this point, you have cost me 13 days delay and a frustrating customer experience with no proposed recompense.

Well, it's the 25th and I intend to enjoy Christmas. I sincerely hope you all do, too. Merry Christmas.
 

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It is also telling that you only finally decided to communicate with me after learning that I had asked the credit card company to reverse the charge due to non-delivery and inability to contact the vendor. A customer should not have to jump through these sorts of hoops. I am very sympathetic with those who have medical issues and/or have loved ones who do as I, too, have been in similar situations. But there are more than 2 of you in the company, and someone should have responded at the very least out of courtesy.
Having ran an eCommerce site for a company larger than Hahn, I can say from experience that the time frame you gave them to receive your intercooler was inadequate. Shipping time from FL to CA alone is 6 business days. From time of order, you gave them 9...and that included the week before Christmas. Now even if they had the intercooler on the shelf this wouldn't be long enough in my book before issuing a chargeback...a recourse that will not only take the money out of their account but also will cause in them paying an additional fee.

I have received a package from UPS before the tracking information for that package has reflected that the package had even been picked up. It is the exception, but it does happen. Considering I'd ship 30 packages a day for over 3 years and I can only think of it happening twice, it is incredibly rare occurrence.

Now the intercooler wasn't sitting on a shelf but rather had to be manufactured. An intercooler won't be built in 3 days. However, a shipper can print out a shipping label ahead of time to expedite shipping time. Until it is picked up, it will reflect a label has been made but the item remains unreceived.

Whether the shipping issue was because of UPS being overworked during the holidays, Bill printing a label before the product was finished, a combination of both, or some other issue...9 business days is not long enough before issuing a chargeback when 6 days of that will be in transit of shipping.

You ask for proof of UPS receiving the package but Hahn, or any other shipper, has no way to provide "proof" of when a package is picked up. When UPS comes to pick up packages for a business, they scan the package into a the driver's hand held reader and load it on the truck. Until that reader syncs up with the UPS network, there is no update to the tracking number. The shipper is left with nothing but the receipt of the label they printed out. That receipt is only proof they made a label, and nothing else. Hahn, or any other shipper, has absolutely no way to "prove" a package has been physically picked up unless they take a picture of the driver handling each package they ship...which, like you said with UPS's track record...would be a huge waste of money and resources for something that may never plague them.

I get the frustration of not getting a return call or email to follow up with your order. I prided myself on making sure all emails were answered within 24 hours of them being sent during the work week. I still am that way when it comes to my professional emails. Nothing sits in my in box during my working hours for more than a few minutes. So not getting a prompt reply bugs me. I don't hold them to my standards though and will email, give it a couple days, and then follow up. (I'm trying to get better about putting all my info in one email rather than 2 or 3 but not always that great on doing that. LOL)

So I get your frustration, but I feel in this case you have brought some of it on yourself. I still don't know how this all turned out (did you finally receive the intercooler? Did you buy a different one? Last time I talked to Curtis he was still waiting on one) but once you issued that chargeback, everything got more difficult. This is why you don't do that until the week before your bank won't allow it if you haven't received any satisfaction.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I hear you. That all makes sense. But Bill told me the UPS guy picked it up on the 13th, and I waited 9 whole days for it to either show up somewhere in UPS' system or at Curtis' garage (during which time I received no response from Hahn) before reversing the charge. For all I knew, someone had been hit by a bus considering they were completely radio silent.

I ordered one from Martin. He was out of stock, and he gave me an estimated production and ship date. As of this morning, he said things were on track. The proof is in the pudding, obviously, but at least there's communication. Had I cancelled the Hahn order sooner, Martin could have shipped one off the shelf.
 

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I hear you. That all makes sense. But Bill told me the UPS guy picked it up on the 13th, and I waited 9 whole days for it to either show up somewhere in UPS' system or at Curtis' garage (during which time I received no response from Hahn) before reversing the charge. For all I knew, someone had been hit by a bus considering they were completely radio silent.
UPS doesn't track weekends. Day 1 of shipping time is the day after they pick it up. The 13th was a Friday. Thus day 1 for shipping was Monday the 16th. By the 20th you had already issued a chargeback. That means you waited 4 days (16, 17, 18, 19...), not 9. It takes up to 6 business days (so you don't count weekends) to get here from FL making Monday the 23rd the earliest it could arrive. The 24th, Christmas Eve, would have been the first day it would be considered overdue. That week was the week before Christmas so 6 days might be 7 or 8 pushing the delivery date back to possibly the 26th.

So you issued a chargeback 2 days before you should have even expected to receive it under the best of shipping circumstances...which the week before Christmas is the worst of shipping circumstances short of a hurricane on the east coast.

I ordered one from Martin. He was out of stock, and he gave me an estimated production and ship date. As of this morning, he said things were on track. The proof is in the pudding, obviously, but at least there's communication. Had I cancelled the Hahn order sooner, Martin could have shipped one off the shelf.
Had you not issued the charge back and been a bit more patient in working with Hahn you might have already had that intercooler also. Once you issued that chargeback prematurely, you threw a wrench into the whole thing. Just letting you know in case your faced with this again. I'm not just saying this, this is coming from someone who has experience in the eCommerce field directly from the top of it down from production, to forecasting, to inventory, to marketing, to site development, to site maintenance, to fulfilling, to invoicing, to packaging, to shipping, to being the consumer...this is my take on it. The chargeback was issued too soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I've never done a chargeback before. Reading chargebacks911.com was eye-opening. I now agree doing so was premature. Let me add that in the few phone conversations I had with Bill (and via Facebook Messenger, which seems to be the best way to connect with him), in addition to being a fountain of knowledge he was always pleasant, helpful, and unrushed. Good guy.
 

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- Provided proof of UPS picking it up. Whose word would you trust? UPS with its aforementioned reliability and robust systems or [...]
Not arguing this particular issue here, but sorry that you had it.

What I do want to say is that UPS's reliability is not necessarily the greatest. My wife just got a new car and in November I ordered all-weather mats for it from a dealer on eBay who, it turned out, shipped them from Mexico (no, I'm not sure about that either). Anyway, they were tracked in UPS up to a depot in southern Texas, where they, according to tracking, never moved again. I complained multiple times to the vendor and they finally instigated an investigation by UPS, but said they wouldn't send replacements until that was complete. It took nearly two weeks before UPS finally admitted they'd lost them. Sigh. Funny thing was, about a week after that, the local UPS truck driver showed up to ask if we'd received them. I laughed and said: you mean they might have magically traveled by UPS, the 2000 miles from southern Texas, to here without ever being scanned? He had the grace to look sheepish, but said he'd had to ask. Moral is, everyone - even UPS - makes mistakes.
 

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I will say, many years ago, when I lived in the US, I had an issue with a forum sponsor (nothing to do with this forum, though!) and had a good vent about it on there. The representative from that organization that read the forum noticed my issue, contacted me, and provided compensation in excess of $500 for my trouble.

So, I can't comment on what exactly is going on with your situation--and I can promise you that in Germany they'd probably want to sue you for libel rather than improve their service or customer relations, but, in the US, that's the type of service I'd expect.
 

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I think that everyone agrees the charge-back was premature, but to me it is understandable in light of zero communication from the vendor. Unfortunate timing combined with some less-than-optimum business practices combined with a bit of impatience to create a "situation".

As I understand it, the problem was not that the package wasn't delivered in 9 days, but that it wasn't indicated as picked up in 9 days. Holiday congestion, transit time, and weekends play no factor in that.

This is actually the reason that most businesses, with the exception of customized or made-to-order items (which this is apparently not), do not charge you until they ship.

I have had some wonky deliveries, and tracked one package that made an almost complete circumnavigation of the continental US, but I have never experienced a package being in UPS's possession for over a week without it showing up in their tracking system.
 

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I think that everyone agrees the charge-back was premature, but to me it is understandable in light of zero communication from the vendor. Unfortunate timing combined with some less-than-optimum business practices combined with a bit of impatience to create a "situation".
Totally agree...

As I understand it, the problem was not that the package wasn't delivered in 9 days, but that it wasn't indicated as picked up in 9 days. Holiday congestion, transit time, and weekends play no factor in that.
UPS had picked up the package but it was not showing up in their system as picked up. I've had this happen to me before with UPS. Unfortunately, under that situation, the shipper has no way to physically prove that it has actually, physically, picked up. It should have been followed up on though after 2 days of no updates and that is the shippers responsibility. The receiver cannot initiate that kind of investigation.

This is actually the reason that most businesses, with the exception of customized or made-to-order items (which this is apparently not), do not charge you until they ship.
This is a made-to-order item. Our market is so small unless it is a multi-platform part items like intercoolers, turbos, charge pipes, down pipes, etc are made to order. Just not cost effective to have five of these sitting on a shelf.
 

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Totally agree...

UPS had picked up the package but it was not showing up in their system as picked up. I've had this happen to me before with UPS. Unfortunately, under that situation, the shipper has no way to physically prove that it has actually, physically, picked up. It should have been followed up on though after 2 days of no updates and that is the shippers responsibility. The receiver cannot initiate that kind of investigation.

This is a made-to-order item. Our market is so small unless it is a multi-platform part items like intercoolers, turbos, charge pipes, down pipes, etc are made to order. Just not cost effective to have five of these sitting on a shelf.
Are you sure that it has been picked up? My read was that a tracking number had been assigned but that it had not been picked up. I know that can happen as I frequently get a tracking number one day, and notice of actual pickup the next. The tracking number notification even has a disclaimer that no actual tracking information will be available until the package is in UPS's possession. Regardless, transit time is not an issue.

Is it actually made to order? The OP states "(out of stock but new ones being produced the following week)" which does not read like it is made to order. I can understand why they wouldn't be stocked, but it is also true that making a small quantity at a time is much more economical than one at a time, so either case is reasonable. It could also be a misunderstanding on someone's part.
 

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Are you sure that it has been picked up? My read was that a tracking number had been assigned but that it had not been picked up. I know that can happen as I frequently get a tracking number one day, and notice of actual pickup the next. The tracking number notification even has a disclaimer that no actual tracking information will be available until the package is in UPS's possession. Regardless, transit time is not an issue.
I am as sure as Bill can be trusted. I talked to Bill and he told me personally the package had been picked up. The way the data was reading on the tracking info is just as you state, the label had been printed but he package had not been picked up...yet Bill state it HAD been picked up. That was the difficulty with this situation...who is right? Regardless, Bill was the only one who could initiate a track on this.

Is it actually made to order? The OP states "(out of stock but new ones being produced the following week)" which does not read like it is made to order. I can understand why they wouldn't be stocked, but it is also true that making a small quantity at a time is much more economical than one at a time, so either case is reasonable. It could also be a misunderstanding on someone's part.
I have a feeling it is a matter of the game of "Telephone". From what I was told, these are not items they have in stock. They will make these as the orders come in. They may batch them together but they do not build more than they have already sold.
 

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I am as sure as Bill can be trusted. I talked to Bill and he told me personally the package had been picked up. The way the data was reading on the tracking info is just as you state, the label had been printed but he package had not been picked up...yet Bill state it HAD been picked up. That was the difficulty with this situation...who is right? Regardless, Bill was the only one who could initiate a track on this.

I have a feeling it is a matter of the game of "Telephone". From what I was told, these are not items they have in stock. They will make these as the orders come in. They may batch them together but they do not build more than they have already sold.
Conversation with Bill certainly alters things, and I had missed that so far in the thread.

So there is an intercooler drifting around the UPS system somewhere, maybe without a label. It will be interesting if it ever shows up, assuming that we hear about it.

Clarity of message is very important, and so often missing.
 
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