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What a bunch of horse manure. What's the big deal about "insider information" regarding an automobile? Is this what America has come to?? Might as well take out your gun & shoot yourself in the head.

The only thing able to "harm" GM is GM....and come to think about it they've been doing a damn good job of it lately!

Delnari, I've enjoyed reading your previous posts and been entertained by the information you've passed along. Too bad your free speech rights have been curtailed. We sure aren't going to get the "facts" or "truth" from the news media or print media for that matter. The only way to get the facts or truth is if we pass it along to each other.

Think about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
yukon42 said:
What a bunch of horse manure. What's the big deal about "insider information" regarding an automobile? Is this what America has come to?? Might as well take out your gun & shoot yourself in the head.

The only thing able to "harm" GM is GM....and come to think about it they've been doing a damn good job of it lately!

Delnari, I've enjoyed reading your previous posts and been entertained by the information you've passed along. Too bad your free speech rights have been curtailed. We sure aren't going to get the "facts" or "truth" from the news media or print media for that matter. The only way to get the facts or truth is if we pass it along to each other.

Think about it.
Thanks for reading my posts. Passing along exciting information to keep us all involved was my way of contributing to the cause. Granted, we all want timely information, unfortnately GM is not able to give us what we so desire at times. Please keep an eye open for any information I can share, but it may be public news by the time I'm allowed to post.
 

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Yes... I'm sure GM will be upset about members of the public creating any kind of buzz around any of their upcoming models :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

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Aw dangit! I can understand if it's been causing more and more people to bother Saturn dealerships with info that *should* be hush-hush till later on, but c'mon, isn't that a great thing that we're interested? Heck, nearly all of us on here is probably going to buy a Sky or Solstice... ;)

Anyway, thanks for the info you provided to us up untill now. I'm sure all us Sky fans appreciate it.
 

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Life in the fast lane ...

Delnari said:
... unfortnately GM is not able to give us what we so desire at times. ... but it may be public news by the time I'm allowed to post.
I agree with you, having good insider news is great... however waiting for the proper time to release it is so very frustrating... :brentil: We already know proper protocol “code of behavior” must be kept ... but then how do you prevent your suppliers or your vendors from leaking out insider information too?



I know how you feel Delnari... don't ya hate waiting to release information that we all want to hear about NOW? :willy:
 

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Guys,

I know this can be frustrating, but consider this:

Inside information compromises competitive advantage. You think Mazda and Toyota people don't peruse solsticeforum and skyroadster? Do you think GM folks never look at miata forums?

Ever wonder why mazda decided to adjust their engine at the last minute, and do a big weight-reduction push to get the power:weight below 16 lbs/hp? Maybe because the info for the Solstice was so well-known? Notice, too, that almost NOTHING was known about the NC MX-5 prior to its NYIAS intro...

Inside information also A) is fluid, and B) tends to be inaccurate.

Look simply at the start/intro date for the Solstice: Officially started as Fall 05, then inside leaks increase the pressure for earlier intro, then inadvertant information noted target start as week 19 (mid May), the Pontiac website changes to Summer 05, then insider leaks at autoshows and such start the May 16 rumor... Then conflicting rumors of May 31, and official info saying possible 4th quarter delivery, and "insider" information saying more like late summer.... It is VERY possible that each and every rumor was correct at one time... BUT what good did all this do? It is still highly likely we won't see Solstices before September of this year... There's just 8,500 frustrated people who ordered a car and are now waiting...

What good is inside information if it is not accurate?

While it is true, based on the BlueOvalNews lawsuits of the end of the last millennium that a site cannot be prevented from publishing confidential information, the site owner had to undergo a painful legal battle that went to the US district courts - a legal battle that I'm sure Troy (even if he knew he'd win) would not want to become mired in.

Instead, a semi-cooperative relationship has developed, and the way the automakers have tried to plug leaks has changed - toward zero-tolerance policies and internal leak elimination. Here's an example of how it works...

-An automotive company (let's use Ford) sees a post that they consider "sensitive" or "confidential" or contains information "not yet intended for public release."

-From the nature of the information, they determine there was an INSIDE source

-All automakers have Non disclosure or confidentiality agreements with their employees (even contract employees), and their suppliers. Violation of such an agreement includes discipline, up to and including dismissal (yes, an automaker can get an individual supplier's employee fired for violation of an NDA).

-Ford makes a polite request to the site administrator/owner to remove the information. They also request the posting IP address of the user that posted the information. Troy COULD refuse, but then, if the information is sensitive enough, Ford can get a warrant for such information, and a whole bunch more information, including e-mail addresses, etc... therefore, it behooves Troy to maintain a cooperative relationship. There is also the implied thread of a lawsuit regarding something violating trademark or copyright laws... Even if Troy knows he'll win, such a lawsuit could be time consuming or costly...

-With the IP address, Ford can determine if the post was made by an employee or supplier. In this case, they can go directly to the poster and discipline (or dismiss, depending on severity) them.

-If the IP address leads to a non-Ford associate, they can get all the contact information, question that person (usually not a comfortable situation), and through inference MAY discover where from where the information came. It is possible they COULD get a warrant to search the poster's computer for confidential information, or sensitive/copyright violations, or even evidence for corporate espionage.

-If the leaks are just completely uncontrollable, then Ford could just close off any URL with "forum" in the title or URL. This is counterproductive, because those participating in a forum WANT employees and managers of the target company to see their input - but in the quest for information, they've cut off access (at work, anyway) to these people. This can also close off ANY input from those occasional participants that ARE employees but never post confidential information.


So, there's some food for thought. Anyone who has witnessed how quickly an innocent thread can erupt into a flame war can appreciate how a simple post of "a person in Ford planning told me that they are working on a new two seat roadster due out in 2006" may result in some innocent ford employee at their design center getting fired because they had dinner with a friend...

So, consider the consequences of what you do.

ALSO, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ANONYMOUS PARTICIPANT IN A FORUM. Your information is confidential, but not anonymous. Keep this in mind at all times - no matter if you participate here, on GMI, C&G, Corvetteforum, BlueOvalNews, Autoweek, car&driver, yahoo..... the moderators and the site admins and the software log IP addresses, and even if they try and purge them, this information is contained at the server level and CAN BE TRACKED by expert 'net forensic investigators. It is discoverable information - and under the right circumstances, even though confidential, can be discovered.

Not to scare you, but information you should consider and balance with the need to get at information.

Thanks for reading, if you got this far :cheers:
 

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kappaman said:
Guys,
ALSO, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ANONYMOUS PARTICIPANT IN A FORUM. Your information is confidential, but not anonymous. Keep this in mind at all times - no matter if you participate here, on GMI, C&G, Corvetteforum, BlueOvalNews, Autoweek, car&driver, yahoo..... the moderators and the site admins and the software log IP addresses, and even if they try and purge them, this information is contained at the server level and CAN BE TRACKED by expert 'net forensic investigators. It is discoverable information - and under the right circumstances, even though confidential, can be discovered.

Not to scare you, but information you should consider and balance with the need to get at information.

This is very good information. Never use your real IP address when posting to outside web sites. Use a false name, spoofed IP address, and bogus contact information. America may be the land of the free, but U.S. intelligence agencies track all forms of communications for possible threats. Your ammendment rights will be tested in a court of law.
 

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Leaked insider information does absolutely nothing positive for the company it relates too. In general it causes more damage then anything else. There's a reason it's usually called 'Confidential' information.

A great example that S-man brought up is the 'leaked' release dates for the Solstice. We now have on a daily basis tons of users posting, whining, griefing, threating to leave, saying GM is the worst ever, buying different cars, etc all because someone felt they had the right to leak internal GM information. People took what the read on the internet as being absolute, and now it's GM's fualt apparently.

Exact same thing here. People read the information posted, and unfortunately take it as absolute. So say the leaked dates roll around and there's not what was promised at that date? Let the flame wars of GM hate begin!!!

You've also just given all of their competitors all their confidential information. Now Mazda supposedly knows what, when, and how much the RL/GXP will be. Now they can plan counter measures to either start smear campaigns, develope competative equipment with earlier release dates, with competative pricing. By trying to help out all the enthusiasts you've just given the main competition the ammunition to help kill the thing we're hear to enjoy.
 

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kappaman said:
...Not to scare you, but information you should consider and balance with the need to get at information....
Scare? Scared of what?? GM?? Ha! That's a hoot. As far as warrants go, warrants cannot be obtained by non-law enforcement entities.

Just let a business entity like GM show up at my house demanding my computer.....hah!

As far as "Troy" goes, if he's smart he would be a very, very rich man now.

Granted if you sign a "non-disclosure" or "confidentiality agreement" you are bound by them.

Freedom boyz, that's what it's all about. Freedom within the law. Yep, far be it from us to stir up any interest in GM products. From the sound of things in the news this morning, GM can't even get their collective autocratic heads out of their posteriors. Hopefully they can hold things together long enough to produce the Solstice and Sky. Thankfully there are still a few "forward" thinking people employed at GM.
 

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yukon42 said:
Scare? Scared of what?? GM?? Ha! That's a hoot. As far as warrants go, warrants cannot be obtained by non-law enforcement entities.

Just let a business entity like GM show up at my house demanding my computer.....hah!

As far as "Troy" goes, if he's smart he would be a very, very rich man now.

Granted if you sign a "non-disclosure" or "confidentiality agreement" you are bound by them.

Freedom boyz, that's what it's all about. Freedom within the law. Yep, far be it from us to stir up any interest in GM products. From the sound of things in the news this morning, GM can't even get their collective autocratic heads out of their posteriors. Hopefully they can hold things together long enough to produce the Solstice and Sky. Thankfully there are still a few "forward" thinking people employed at GM.
That's right - only law enforcement agents can obtain a legal warrant.

So GM shows you have inside information, reports you to the FBI for corporate espionage. They have proof that they have non-disclosure agreements - expressly to control corporate espionage. And proof that you have information that "cannot be obtained by any public source".

The FBI obtains a warrant based on "first-degree grand theft, dealing in stolen property and conspiracy for illegally acquiring confidential product plans and then selling them to a foreign firm".

They show up at your door, with three "corporate lawyers" to observe, and have a warrant to obtain "all forms of electronic devices with information storage capability within the premeses, including all detached buildings - including small, hand held devices, flash cards, iPods, and USB memory devices larger than 2 cm by 8mm by 3mm, and any other memory storage media..."

Then the FBI comes in, removes your computer, your answering machine, all of your camera memory cards, you iPod, your Palm Pilot, your wife's Palm Pilot, and in the process uncover that 4 yr old bag of pot buried in the bottom of your basement desk on the lower left drawer, underneath the unread copy of "war and peace"...

Don't kid yourself - it certainly don't seem fair, but it also can happen. It already has happened. And it is not a lot of fun, even if the charges are dropped later for the corp espionage, you're STILL in trouble for the pot (legal search uncovered illegal activity, therefore admissable in court).

Unless you are SQUEAKY clean... (is anyone? REALLY?)

Besides, you are only thinking about yourself. What about when these companies just give up and start eliminating internet access - then the exposure becomes MUCH smaller, and your voice becomes LESS heard. What about the employees who end up losing access to information that could help them do their jobs better?

Delnari, spoof IP's can be traced, too. I am 100% certain of it (not related to here, but to a totally unrelated set of circumstances almost two years ago - no, not about me, but about an acquaintence of mine).
 

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kappaman said:
That's right - only law enforcement agents can obtain a legal warrant.

So GM shows you have inside information, reports you to the FBI for corporate espionage.

If "having" inside information is against the law then nearly every employee of a corporation is guilty of "THIS HORENDOUS CRIME". Get real; merely having knowledge is NOT a crime.

They have proof that they have non-disclosure agreements - expressly to control corporate espionage. And proof that you have information that "cannot be obtained by any public source".

Okay, they have proof I have info and a non-disclosure agreement. Obviously I would have info or they wouldn't need a non-disclosure agreement from me. Your point is....????

The FBI obtains a warrant based on "first-degree grand theft, dealing in stolen property and conspiracy for illegally acquiring confidential product plans and then selling them to a foreign firm".

And just what proof do they have that I have or am "selling to a foreign firm"? Where has anyone gained financially or otherwise in sharing information in this forum????? Please enlighten me.

They show up at your door, with three "corporate lawyers" to observe, and have a warrant to obtain "all forms of electronic devices with information storage capability within the premeses, including all detached buildings - including small, hand held devices, flash cards, iPods, and USB memory devices larger than 2 cm by 8mm by 3mm, and any other memory storage media..."

Nope, they don't show up at my door cause.....now listen real careful....THERE ISN'T ANY CRIMINAL CASE. The FBI doesn't anyway, can't say for the idiots at GM.

Then the FBI comes in, removes your computer, your answering machine, all of your camera memory cards, you iPod, your Palm Pilot, your wife's Palm Pilot, and in the process uncover that 4 yr old bag of pot buried in the bottom of your basement desk on the lower left drawer, underneath the unread copy of "war and peace"...

See above, FBI laughed GM out of their office.

Don't kid yourself - it certainly don't seem fair, but it also can happen. It already has happened. And it is not a lot of fun, even if the charges are dropped later for the corp espionage, you're STILL in trouble for the pot (legal search uncovered illegal activity, therefore admissable in court).
Unless you are SQUEAKY clean... (is anyone? REALLY?)

Nope, no search. Again, see posts above.

Besides, you are only thinking about yourself. What about when these companies just give up and start eliminating internet access - then the exposure becomes MUCH smaller, and your voice becomes LESS heard. What about the employees who end up losing access to information that could help them do their jobs better?

Hey, now you're talking! That sound's exactly like something GM would do. Eliminate access to information that would help their employees do their job better! Yeah, sounds about right.

Delnari, spoof IP's can be traced, too. I am 100% certain of it (not related to here, but to a totally unrelated set of circumstances almost two years ago - no, not about me, but about an acquaintence of mine).
Twenty years in law enforcement Kappaman. I know how the criminal justice system works and how the FBI operate.

Obviously you have never tried to trace dynamic IP's which the more modern one's utilize. You can be traced while you are online at that instant, but tracking after the fact is nearly impossible.

Kappaman, you are very entertaining I'll give you that. I would guess you are one of those corporate types; being so melodramatic and all. I grow tired of this thread and so will move on.......I've found a Saturn dealer who hasn't even started a buyer list for the Sky yet. Now just have to decide whether or not to wait for a red line model.........'nuf said.
 

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yukon42 said:
Obviously you have never tried to trace dynamic IP's which the more modern one's utilize. You can be traced while you are online at that instant, but tracking after the fact is nearly impossible.
Actually if you're just using a normal dynamic IP those are fairly easy to trace. ISP's keep logs of who have what IPs traceable back to the MAC of the network card connecting to them. Same with modems once they're connected to a dialup.

Real spoofed IP's on the other hand require a far more detailed level tracking ability to trace back correctly. However they also require a bit of skill to do correctly.

You can use 'obfuscation' websites that hide what sites you're going to and who you are, but most of them keep logs too.

VPN/Tunnel to someone elses network to hide your location? Most of those keep logs too.

We're not trying to scare people with "GM's gonna get you," we're just making sure people know GM can find out who you are if they really want. If you feel just posting on the forums under a different screen name will let you get away with it, that's relaly not the case. If it happens enough too I don't doubt GM would come after not just the posters, but the site itself. If the forums turn into a breeding ground of leaks, well lets just leave that to GMI.com for now. :D
 

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i think it may be a good idea to close this thread before it escalades into a flame war. :willy: Giving my two cents, I agree with Kappaman :cheers:
 

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yukon42 said:
Twenty years in law enforcement Kappaman. I know how the criminal justice system works and how the FBI operate.
:cheers:
Then you must know that all that is required for law enforcement to obtain a search warrant is probable cause.
yukon42 said:
Kappaman, you are very entertaining I'll give you that. I would guess you are one of those corporate types; being so melodramatic and all. ....
I aim to please, guilty as charged. Glad I could accomodate you :cheers: :)

How's this for a scenario - an employee from an widget company gets an internal picture of a current widget, alters it using photoshop to make it look somewhat like a newly revised widget. This employee gives it to another employee, a friend of his. This friend takes said picture and alters it a bit more, then gives it to a third party (not an employee) - who posts it on the internet. After some investigation, both the original employee and his friend are fired.

Or how 'bout this: Some of the security personnel at a fandangaled manufacturing facility are being friendly, and let someone into the final shipping area of the facility and allow them to take photos of their manufactured product. When the pictures surface on the internet, these security personnel lose their jobs. PS: there was nothing revealing about the photos, they simply violated basic policy.

Or how 'bout this: a FOAF gets a tour of a prototype shop. They legitimately have a camera, but manage to get clear photos of an upcoming prototype. This friend's roomate sees a couple of these photos on the hard drive, and decides it might be cool to post them on a website totally unrelated to the product. These pictures are seen, recognized, and reported by an anonymous employee of the owner of the prototype. After a simple search and a connection, the FOAF doesn't get fired, but they are reprimanded, with a mark in their personnel file. The individual does not get promoted for over 9 years.

or, an individual has a job in the design department of a computer company. The individual has photos of the new case design in their personal effects. For another reason, they are laid off, and inadvertantly take these photos with them. This individual then scans the photo, and posts it on a website. The new design is immediately recognized, and the individual is arrested for possession of stolen property. And drug possession.

An employee of a company works on a kool project she's very proud of. She meets with her cousin and tells her cousin all about it. Her cousin is geeked and pround of her. So proud, her cousin inadvertantly posts some "inside information" on her project - so specific that she is identified by the nature of the material. She is not fired, but also no longer works on said kool project - she's designing fasteners and attachments nobody ever sees...

Names and situations have been altered for anonymitiy.

You see, most people working in the corporate world don't seem to realize that they are "at-will" employees in most states, who can be fired for any reason that is not discriminatory (on the flip side, they can quit any time, also).

Posting inside information? It doesn't only affect the poster, it may affect the poster's source of information. Or the website itself.

Last year, there were a few incidents of posted information that was "embargoed" - ahead of the agreed embargo date. I won't go into detail about what embargoing means, but several enthusiast sites had their press credentials curtailed, meaning they could not have the same access to inside press information that the magazines do until WAY after the magazines publish the information.

If you don't consider losing your job melodramatic, well good 4 U. You may not give a crap that a website may lose their press credentials and legitimate channels of information. That's great.

However, many people that work for a corporation want to keep their job. Website owners of enthusiast websites like to maintain press credentials. Some info slips out, yes. Too much and a bit of questioning, or just the right combination of detail, and the leak gets found - and plugged. It happens time after time, and it IS serious business (unless you really don't care if you keep your job).

I too, grow tired of single-viewpoint takes on a subject. And before everyone thinks I told Delnari to stop posting, I did no such thing. I'm just a moderator here. I just requested, due to the nature of the information, that he ask his source if his source was aware of his postings. If his source had no problem with it, then I certainly didn't. You'll have to ask Delnari what is going on...
 

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yeah, basically... if you want the friggin' sky, don't post up info, no matter how temped you might be... we can wait. please close/delete this sh--tuff... no one needs it.
 

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Keep in mind - so long as we keep the discussion civil, there's no reason to close it.

It actually might help folks to understand why it seems like we go out of our way to make people aware of insider information. (some could say paranoid)

1) it protects unknowing employees from doing something innocent that may cost them their job
2) reduces potential inconvenience to third party information posters
3) helps protect (somewhat) the competitive nature of the automotive business (seriously!)
4) helps protect the integrity of the website to maintain access to press and media areas for companies
5) reduces confusion due to the fluid and inaccurate nature of inside information (inside information is NEVER complete enought to put together the full story).

Hope it helps.
 

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I lived in Detroit awhile and it was pretty common knowledge that new model information was not to be given out. A lot of people knew about new models and info would leak out but I cant imagine anyone posting secret info on a forum!
 

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marlboromike said:
when more than one person knows about it...it is no longer a secret...sorry to rain on your logic
Oh, I didnt realize that if more than one person knew it then it couldnt be considered a secret. So two or three people could not have a secret, or even several key people couldnt be entrusted with a "secret". You are so smart! Thanks for sharing that with us.
 
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