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OH please tell me where I sign up for one of these wonderful tunes, eh never mind, I had two years of messing with the crap and ended up with a blown engine. Went back to stock and have not had a problem since. I did run the canned trifecta tune for 4 years and never had a code. Did some really stupid stuff and suffered for two years with it. I knew the first weekend the engine was toast, but the tune said it was fine. It took countless tunes, basically abusing the car every single time, tweak, tweak and the same problems. When it ran it was a monster, but that was about 10% of the time. The rest of the time it bogged, popped, made horrific noises, and finally burnt a hole thru the pistons. Have talked to several that have the same experience.

The GM tune is not going to hurt your car, and I don't think the canned Trifecta will either. But I think if you are going to have some one tune your car, you need to there when it is done, side by side, not on the other end of a mailed program. The tuner needs to hear and see what is going on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
OH please tell me where I sign up for one of these wonderful tunes, eh never mind, I had two years of messing with the crap and ended up with a blown engine. Went back to stock and have not had a problem since. I did run the canned trifecta tune for 4 years and never had a code. Did some really stupid stuff and suffered for two years with it. I knew the first weekend the engine was toast, but the tune said it was fine. It took countless tunes, basically abusing the car every single time, tweak, tweak and the same problems. When it ran it was a monster, but that was about 10% of the time. The rest of the time it bogged, popped, made horrific noises, and finally burnt a hole thru the pistons. Have talked to several that have the same experience.

The GM tune is not going to hurt your car, and I don't think the canned Trifecta will either. But I think if you are going to have some one tune your car, you need to there when it is done, side by side, not on the other end of a mailed program. The tuner needs to hear and see what is going on.
I understand how the quest for HP is a slippery slope to possible engine issues and sleepless nights. I used to have a neighbor who was big into the tuner seen. He honestly spent more time working on his car than driving it. Most of that was due to the fact his car was non functioning after his latest "tune". I can't even imagine how much money he dropped into his RX-8. When it did run it was a very impressive car. When it didn't, it was just an expensive garage ornament. Personally, I'm thinking a canned tune and then I'm done. I'm not going to autocross it, I just want a little more HP and torque that's available that GM dialed back.

If the tune isn't going to overshoot the stock MAP sensors capabilities then I'll keep what I have. If there is a potential that it will, then I think it's worth upgrading to the 3 bar sensors for peace of mind. So with everything that I have gathered, it seems like all the stage 1 tunes are similar in that I should expect about 30HP/60-70lb increase at the wheels and about 21-24 PSI in boost. Now the next question is reliability, customer service, price, etc. for which tuner to use. Below are the options I have found.

GMPP - offers the stage 1 tune for +/- $700 plus cost of dealer install, completely installed at the dealership. Most expensive.
Trifecta - offers the basic tune for $350, they send you the tune and cable to do yourself based on your selections for your car. Seems to be the best reviewed
RPM - offers the stage 1 for $300, they send you a tuner that you connect and via remotely they tune your car. Some good, some bad, some in the middle reviews. (most reviews on their products)
ZZP - offers their tune for $200, you send them your ECU and TCU and they tune based on you selections in house and then return for you to reinstall. Reviews either great or bad (caveat most reviews are on their products not their tune)
HP Tuners - Purchase price $250, hardware only, would need to download a tune from the repository at owner's risk.
 

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The stock MAP sensor is rated 2.5 bar, or (nominally) 22 psi of boost. You don't really know how exactly much boost you are getting, and neither does your ECM. It usually works, but it is not ideal.
On a Redline I thought they were actually 2.7 bar, hence the 24 psi limit on the D.I.C. display readout.
 

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On a Redline I thought they were actually 2.7 bar, hence the 24 psi limit on the D.I.C. display readout.
I have seen that suggested, but not in anything from GM, and the only MAP sensor specs I have found are for 2.5, and not 2.7 bar. Have you been any actual documentation for a 2.7 bar sensor?
 

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Performance of the MAP sensors (and all sensors for that matter) is very ambiguous at the extreme edge of their range, which is why they are not used there for critical control functions.

A 2,5 bar sensor should be good for 22 psi of boost, but Summit Racing lists one as "good for up to 25 psi of boost". The math doesn't work for me, but there it is.
Exactly (though the stock sensor is actually 2.7 bar), very unwise to believe anything above ~4.7 volts (out of 5) range from the sensor - i.e. +22-23 PSI - before it goes non-linear.

I don't have any further info on the stock sensor (so that part below, is based on factory range figure), but for the GMPP Bosch sensor, I did find the data below some time ago:

The stock sensor is 2.7 BAR (+24.7 PSI)
and the new sensor is 3.07 BAR (+30 PSI)

Stock Factory Sensor
RANGE: to 2.7 BAR (+24.7 PSI)

kPa PSI (abs) PSI (pos pressure)
--- --------- ------------------
11 = 1.5954147 -12.9083553 (assumed)
270 = 39.160179 +24.656409

Bosch T-Map Sensor 0 281 002 845 (3 bar sensor):
RANGE: 11 kPa @ 0.25V , 307 kPa @ 4.75V

kPa PSI (abs) PSI (pos pressure)
--- --------- ------------------
11 = 1.5954147 -12.9083553
300 = 43.51131 +29.00754
307 = 44.5265739 +30.0228039
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Exactly (though the stock sensor is actually 2.7 bar), very unwise to believe anything above ~4.7 volts (out of 5) range from the sensor - i.e. +22-23 PSI - before it goes non-linear.

I don't have any further info on the stock sensor (so that part below, is based on factory range figure), but for the GMPP Bosch sensor, I did find the data below some time ago:
I went ahead and purchased the 3 bar sensor kit for this very reason. Even if the tune is set to run at >24PSI, any spikes would not register correctly and the system would simply be guessing. For the cost of the new sensors it's worth the peace of mind. I appreciate the feedback from everyone here, it put all of that into perspective for me. Sensors and the new tune are supposed to be on my doorstep this afternoon via UPS. I'm pretty excited to jump in and get everything swapped out and give this new tune a go, but I'm dealing with some lower back pain that immobilized me this weekend, so I may not get around to installing everything just yet.
 

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Exactly (though the stock sensor is actually 2.7 bar), very unwise to believe anything above ~4.7 volts (out of 5) range from the sensor - i.e. +22-23 PSI - before it goes non-linear.

I don't have any further info on the stock sensor (so that part below, is based on factory range figure), but for the GMPP Bosch sensor, I did find the data below some time ago:
I have seen similar information in a similar format, ut have not been able to track down a spec sheet for a 2.7 bar sensor.

I think it is time for one of my stock sensors to get connected to the precision pressure calibration rig.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I couldn't help myself, I fought through the back pain and installed the new sensors and the tune. The sensors installed super easy with the plug n play hookups. Boost peaked at 24psi. The acceleration is great, shift points were improved a lot. It’s definitely what I wanted and money well spent. I’ll need to get it on a dyno one of these days to see the actual gains. Thanks everybody for the feedback.
 

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I know that trifecta's tune basically locks your ecm, you cant edit any setting with hptuners unless you overwrite the whole tune, loosing it in the process. Not sure what rpm does in this case.
And not sure whether you want to fiddle around with any settings in the future.
Hey Shabby, question. So if I get the Trifecta tune...then later want to have a tuner with HPT dyno tune it for me, I realize I'll have to install the stock tune (in Trifecta) then let the tuner do his thing, but : If I decide to go back to my Trifecta tune later because the tuner didn't work out.. couldn't I do so ? You mentioned losing it..
 

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If you didnt throw out the cable OR the program on your computer, you should be able to reinstall it. I did several times because the install was interupted by a loose cable or a dead battery or something else.
 
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I couldn't help myself, I fought through the back pain and installed the new sensors and the tune. The sensors installed super easy with the plug n play hookups. Boost peaked at 24psi. The acceleration is great, shift points were improved a lot. It’s definitely what I wanted and money well spent. I’ll need to get it on a dyno one of these days to see the actual gains. Thanks everybody for the feedback.
^ This! 🤓

Should I purchase and install GM stage 1 map sensors (or aftermarket equivalent 3 bar Map Tmap sensors) before getting my advantage + tune ? I am about to complete my order but although there is the choice to answer "yes" or "no" to whether I am "using" either.. (which I'm guessing that means I can).. but SHOULD I buy and install them ? I did a little research and read conflicting accounts, but some said 3 bar stage 1 maps were needed.. or better to have. I don't want to run into problems for cutting corners.
I will be get my advantage + tune for my :
Saturn Sky Redline : DDMWorks 2.0L cold air intake, Solo high flow converter, DDMWorks LNF fuel filter kit, Stock turbo, Stock cat back, Stock throttle body.
 

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Should I purchase and install GM stage 1 map sensors (or aftermarket equivalent 3 bar Map Tmap sensors) before getting my advantage + tune ? I am about to complete my order but although there is the choice to answer "yes" or "no" to whether I am "using" either.. (which I'm guessing that means I can).. but SHOULD I buy and install them ? I did a little research and read conflicting accounts, but some said 3 bar stage 1 maps were needed.. or better to have. I don't want to run into problems for cutting corners.
I will be get my advantage + tune for my :
Saturn Sky Redline : DDMWorks 2.0L cold air intake, Solo high flow converter, DDMWorks LNF fuel filter kit, Stock turbo, Stock cat back, Stock throttle body.
That's a message I sent to Trifecta support... thought I'd ask here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Should I purchase and install GM stage 1 map sensors (or aftermarket equivalent 3 bar Map Tmap sensors) before getting my advantage + tune ? I am about to complete my order but although there is the choice to answer "yes" or "no" to whether I am "using" either.. (which I'm guessing that means I can).. but SHOULD I buy and install them ? I did a little research and read conflicting accounts, but some said 3 bar stage 1 maps were needed.. or better to have. I don't want to run into problems for cutting corners.
I will be get my advantage + tune for my :
Saturn Sky Redline : DDMWorks 2.0L cold air intake, Solo high flow converter, DDMWorks LNF fuel filter kit, Stock turbo, Stock cat back, Stock throttle body.
I think I paid $115 for the 3 bar MAP sensors from ZZP. These are the same Bosch sensors installed as part of the GMPP kit, but with prewired pigtails. They were plug n play and for the effort and price it was worth the peace of mind. Obviously others run tunes without them, but personally I believe it money to be well spent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Ok, so plug and play.. I'm in. GM Stage 1 Sensors

I read some where that there was a lot of adjustments you had to make upon install. Also, can I install these an run them for a week or two before the tune ?
Yup those are the same ones that I bought. You shouldn’t have any troubles with those. Originally before the pig tails were added, people had to cut the stock harnesses and solder the wires to make them work. You don’t have to go do that because of the pig tails. You’re also supposed to swap the O-rings too, but I believe they were also already swapped with the ones I got.

You will have to swap sensors at the time you do the tune. The tune will update the parameters in the ECM to allow the 3 bar sensors to communicate correctly. If you install before the tune they will not work correctly.
 

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Trifecta told me that they usually worked with stock sensors and had to do it slightly differently for cars with the GMPP map sensors. They can do it either way but said there is really no advantage to paying for the new sensors when just going to the Trifecta tunes.
 
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