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UPDATED 12/31/19 GM Issues a Recall of the Passenger Presence Sensor!

148K views 1K replies 104 participants last post by  JohnWR 
#1 · (Edited)
12/31/2019 Update:
Completed the new survey of NHTSA complaints registered since the recall was announced (January 2017) where someone had the recall performed and then the problem came back.

Honestly, there isn't much here. 14 records total and only 8 of follow on failures after the recall fix was performed. Of those 8, only 4 could be confirmed as having just the tape fix performed and then a total failure later. Of these 4, I can only confirm 1 of these have happened after the 1 year warranty on the recall fix was up. I know I've read more than 1 person having their mat fail a year after getting the tape fix but those people are not complaining, not mentioning the first fix was a tape fix, and/or not mentioning the failure happened more than a year after the tape fix.

This really isn't enough to file a petition to look into the "tape fix" part of the original recall. I will keep monitoring it but if you have not filed a complaint with NHTSA and have had your "tape fix" recall solution mat fail completely, you need to file a complaint. If you have and have already filed a complaint, do NOT file another. Data integrity cannot be compromised just to get "more" complaints.

12/13/2019 Update:
Round 2

It looks like we may need to go through this again though this time may not be nearly as difficult to research yet will probably be harder to get a result.

In the original paper I wrote for this, I documented how this failure could occur and expressed our recall should be like the Cadillac recall and all PPS mats should be replaced. As you know, this was not the case. An active PPS fault needed to be occurring for a full replacement. If there was no fault, GM would put the reinforcing tape on the existing mat and call it good.

The problem we are seeing is that many of these "tape only fixes" are failing at or just past the 1 year warranty period of the recall repair. It is my hypothesis that these mats were already "damaged" when the tape was applied. By damaged I mean the mat 3D matrix of sensors had already started to tear but that the tear was not big enough to break the printed circuit that causes the fault. Once the mat is damaged in this way though, use of the seat WILL allow the tear to lengthen until it does eventually result in a PPS mat failure. The "tape fix", I believe, would not prevent this, only lengthen the time it takes to happen.

GM cannot tell if a mat is damaged unless the fault is active OR to tear apart the mat and inspect the 3D matrix within it. Of course doing the latter would render the mat unusable so only the active PPS mat fault method was used. It is my belief that ANY car that got only the "tape fix" should be recalled again and have a new mat installed and that, moving forward, the recall solution repair should only be replacing the existing mat, whether or not the PPS error is active or not, with a new mat.

So please, ANYONE who has taken their car in without the airbag light being on to have the PPS mat recall performed but who then later had the airbag light come on again only to find out their PPS mat has now failed, please go to the NHTSA complaint site (link below) and register a complaint. I will start going through that database next week to collect complaint counts. Thank you.

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/

--- END UPDATE ---

WE HAVE A RECALL!!!!!

NHTSA Campaign Number: 17V061000

Manufacturer General Motors LLC

Components AIR BAGS

Potential Number of Units Affected 91,007


Summary

General Motors LLC (GM) is recalling certain 2006-2010 Pontiac Solstice and 2007-2010 Saturn Sky vehicles. The Passenger Air Bag Suppression System (PPS) sensor may become bent or damaged within the front passenger seat, possibly disabling the front passenger air bag.
3/1/2018 Update:

Can't believe it's been over a year since we got the news the recall was issued. Now, the final remedy for this recall has been announced and folks are getting their letters to come in and have it applied.

The final remedy is to add tape to the mat just like on the CTS. If your mat is NOT damaged, and more on this word in a minute, then the dealership will apply the new reinforced tape to your existing mat. If your mat IS damaged, they will replace the mat with a new mat that has the tape in place.

Now for the explanation of what "damage" means. From what we can tell, you may have a working mat (no Service Air Bag message or Air Bag warning light) and it could still be considered "damaged". Now whether this means the section of mat that fails is slightly torn or if it is torn to the point where it is into the printed circuit yet has not broke the circuit completely we don't know. Talk to your service department or GM for further information on this.

2/9/2017 Update:

NHTSA officially issues the recall.

NHTSA Campaign Number: 17V061000

From the recall documentation:

You are required to provide an estimated date including month, day, and year, when you will send notifications to owners, dealers, and distributors as soon as it becomes available. Please be reminded that it is required that owners be notified of a safety defect in their vehicles within 60 days of a manufacturer's notification to NHTSA of a safety defect in those vehicles.
This means we all should receive a letter on the recall by April 9th. It is hoped that there will be a remedy listed by that time.


2/1/2017 Update:
Looks like Transport Canada has beat the NHTSA to the recall punch.
Transport Canada issues safety recall of 7,143 Pontiac and Saturn vehicles

The Transport Canada recall number is 2017044. Here is a link to the Transport Canada recall page for our cars:
Recall Details


1/27/2017 Update:
The recall has been issued by GM. #172080280 Issued January 26, 2017

NHTSA has not assigned a recall number yet.

There is no Remedy Plan yet.

https://my.gm.com/recalls

Enter your VIN and you can read the details.

:yay:

.
Now, per the GM employee who shared this on Facebook (and per the recall info on that site when you input your VIN), GM is working on a redesign of the part and there is no official Remedy yet. I don't know how long redesign and production of this new part will take (I'm thinking at minimum 6 months and that's being highly optimistic) so don't go down to your dealership and ask for the recall to be done on your car just yet.

What this news means is that GM has decided to issue a recall and move forward with making a fix. NHTSA will eventually issue a recall number too when GM has sorted out what the remedy for this will be.

As more news becomes available, I will post updates to this thread up here.


Below is the original post and the updates as they were posted...but most of this is moot now that GM has released an official recall.

Passenger Sensing System Sensor Mat Failures in the GM Kappa Platform - A Call for a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Investigation

Abstract: Based on a survey of National Highway Traffic Safety Administration data from their Vehicle Safety Consumer Complaint System and data supplied by manufactures who experienced and issued recalls on Passenger Sensing System (PSS) sensor mats, there is a failure pattern of the IEE supplied PSS sensor mat in the GM Kappa platform vehicles, the MY 2006-2010 Pontiac Solstice and MY 2007-2010 Saturn Sky, which would require further investigation and action to ensure passenger safety.


1/17/2017 Update:
Not so much an update as a follow up notice. I talked to the person handling our petition and asked them about the status of it. All I got was "We're working on it and we haven't forgotten about it." I don't know if the length of time this is taking is a good or bad thing but at least they know we haven't forgotten about it either. I will keep checking their site (which is easier to do now at least...) and will follow up with them again in May if nothing has changed. That will mark one year since the petition was opened by them.

10/19/2016 Update:
GM response posted. Included in the response are databases that list every Kappa produced, every complaint GM has received on this issue, and every repair GM has done for this issue. We're talking a LOT of data here folks. 90,000+ records in the production database, 300+ records in the complaint database, and 2,700+ records in the repair database. I plan on going over these databases like I did the CTS databases in my first report. May take a month or so to put everything together but I'll update you here.

7/21/2016 Update:
What a difference a day makes. Today there are four new documents on the NHTSA Site. These are the response from IEE. Some very interesting information about our sensors.
Click the link below to go directly to the post in this thread about these important documents:
https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/...-sensor-failure-73441/index9.html#post1090586

7/20/2016 Update:
No update yet to the NHTSA site on the petition. I called around June 21st to see if IEE had responded and, while I was told they had and that no request for confidentiality had been submitted with the response, it should be on their website "soon". I know Takata is taking a lot of their time and the staffing is short but it has been over a month since IEE's response deadline (June 15th) and almost three weeks since GM's response deadline (June 30th) with no update to the site. I do check every weekday. So today I wrote an email to the contacts I had been put in touch with over at the NHTSA requesting some update on the petition. If I receive no response by July 31st, I'll be calling the office on August 1st to see what the holdup is.

5/31/2016 Update:
I did an interview with WSMV, NBC Nashville for a follow up report on their 2013 story regarding this issue.

Drivers continue push for recall over vehicle's known issue - WSMV Channel 4

In the email the reporter sent me to share this link, he sent correspondence from GM stating that GM has began an internal investigation into this issue.

5/27/2016 Update:
NHTSA has granted a two week extension to IEE for them to submit their information. New deadline for IEE is June 16th.

5/26/2016 Update:
IEE responded to NHTSA requesting a conference call between the NHTSA, IEE and IEE's attorney to discuss an extension to their June 1st deadline to respond with the information NHTSA requested on May 16th.

5/20/2016 Update:
NHTSA INVESTIGATION Subject : Passenger Sensing System Sensor Mat

Date Investigation Opened: MAY 16, 2016
Date Investigation Closed: Open
NHTSA Action Number: DP16001
Component(s): AIR BAGS

The Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) has received a petition requesting a defect investigation into an alleged defect of the air bag system on 2006-2010 Pontiac Solstice and 2007-2010 Saturn Sky vehicles. The petition letter is attached for review.

4/20/2016 Update: Defect Petition has been written and reviewed by the NHTSA representative I got in contact with yesterday. He told me to proceed and this should go out in the mail along with a CD of 8 attachments mentioned in the Petition. See page 4 in this thread for a link to the letter (a almost final draft version).

4/19/2016 Update: While I can't go into details at this time, I have been informed that the NHTSA has gotten wind of this report and would be open to starting an investigation into the problem. I first must draft a Defect Petition in accordance with 49 CFR 552.4 in order to get the ball rolling. I am currently researching what is needed in that Defect Petition letter and starting my first draft. I have a contact at NHTSA who is willing to help with this process so I look forward to having more news for you folks in the coming days.

2/9/2016 Update: I have gone through the whole document for a third (or fourth, or fifth...I've lost count) time and have incorporated suggestions from those who have read it over and messaged me as well as my own revisions that I caught while reading through it. I THINK I got everything. I will start working on a Social Media story now.

2/4/2016 Update: 10 more pages added comparing NHTSA reported complaints of the PSS sensor mat failure in the Vehicle Safety Consumer Complaint database versus production numbers of the two Kappa vehicles and four other GM products.


ORIGINAL OPENING POST:


I ask that folks who wish to read the above PDF and, if you find any typos or mistakes, please let me know so I can fix them. It's not a short read.

Also, thank you to Tomato Soup and DaveOC for their help with this project. I referenced TS's great work and photo documentation on the PSS sensor mat he took apart and DaveOC helped with research information on production and sales numbers for the Kappa platform. Thank you both and thank you to all those who supported my efforts in putting this together.

Okay folks, for those that didn't follow along in the other thread and need to catch up, here is the backstory to this:

https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/...ir-bag-deployed-70617/index9.html#post1016217

The whole purpose of this survey of information is to get the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) to open an investigation into the problem. Until they do that, GM isn't going to do anything I don't believe.

This document reviews the problem in the following manner.

First we go over why we have these sensors in the car and how the system works.

Then it moves on to the Cadillac 2005-2007 CTS recall. This recall was for the same issue we seem to have, the mat flexes and eventually breaks causing the Service Air Bag message to display. This recall is used for a baseline since GM is in charge of the Cadillac, Pontiac, and Saturn brands. There is a review of the problem, how GM determined there was a problem, the role NHTSA played in that discovery, the changes made during production to fix the problem, the timeline of the recall, and GM and NHTSA data documenting the problem and decision making process.

Then it moves on to the Kappas. There is a brief background of the Kappa development with emphasis on GM using as many parts from other cars in production as possible to speed up development time to go from show car to production, an overview of our problem, and complaint data from the NHTSA complaint system then comparing that with data trends in the CTS recall.

From there it moves on to the BMW recall of 2008, its expansion in 2013, and the inclusion of the MINI vehicles in 2015. Manufacturer data is used to compare the discovery process with Cadillac, how BMW resorted to alternative analysis data and the symptoms of the problem with both Cadillac and Kappa. Also the solutions of BMW to the problem and how BMW categorized the issue is compared to how GM solved the CTS problem.

Next up is Kia and it's 2013 Kia Rio recall for the same issue. It covers the discovery timeline of Kia, how Kia Motors America (KMA) and Kia Motors Corporation (KMC) twice conducted internal investigations into the problem without discovering the issue and finally, under pressure from the NHTSA, used alternative analysis data techniques to finally uncover the problem and issue a recall.

The last recall it covers is the Suzuki recall. The discovery process and timeline are reviewed and conclusions drawn about the length of time the problem requires to be discovered on average as well as how the company handled the recall process after pressure from Canada's version of the NHTSA (can't remember it now...Canada something).

This is followed by a comparison of these four recalls to the Kappa problem and the conclusions I drew from the data that was presented.

Finally, the survey of information proposes an action plan to move forward with the initiation of an investigation based on the evidence presented in the survey.

I call this a survey because it could take me six months to thoroughly go over the data I can find, writing manufacturers for more information, and querying hard copy records all over the world to get more information on these recalls, supply chains, and production processes. In the end, the only way we will see more data to be able to really determine how bad the problem is will be when GM has to respond to the NHTSA investigation I hope this generates and needs to provided hard data as to why or why not they decide to issue a recall or not.

I originally said a week but the PDF at the top of the page is the product of over a month worth of research, data entry, analysis, and writing. It's the first time I've wrote something of this size. 54 pages of writing, 1 cover page, 3 works cited pages. Almost all primary sources. Found all of it through extensive Internet searches.

And this is just the beginning...

I'm going to make an empty reply to this thread below this initial post to save a spot for the next part of this process. I'll take the information I put together in this survey and put together a more "Pathos" argument that relies more on a Emotional argument for the investigation for posting to social media. This one shouldn't take as long...I don't have to use citations or formal writing styles plus it needs to be a paragraph or two at most. Maybe three.

One more thing, this was all done for the Kappa community. If something comes of it, its for all of us. Give me a week before you share this on other sites so I have a chance to do second and third proofread passes on it. I've already done one healthy pass but I would like to do a couple more and have others get their eyes on it so they can catch things I miss. Next week though, we can post away. For the social media message I'm making for the next replay, that can go out at the same time as you will want to link back to the main document posted above.
 
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#189 ·
My 2007 has 100k+ miles, with no replacement. My 2008 had 68k miles (and was wrecked) and needed a sensor when I got it.

Clearly I have no knowledge of the 2008's history, but I do have evidence that the driver was a pretty big guy.

My 2007 has been driven solo for over half of its distance, and the only regular passengers have not been large people.
The passenger seat has never been stood or kneeled in, and nothing heavy has been carried on it.
It also has seat heaters. While there are concerns that the heaters can damage sensor mats, I wonder in this case if the extra covering helps to protect them.

Question: Do cloth seats have a higher or lower incidence of failures?
 
#191 ·
I was reading through the GM letter today and something caught my attention.

As I mentioned before the sensor mat in our cars did go through a couple revisions early in production. According to GM:

Part number 10345300 was used in the initial design in place at the start of production for 2006 MY Pontiac Soltice and 2007 MY Saturn Sky. That part underwent two design iterations: The first involved stiffening the plastic reinforcement layer of the section of the sensor mat that enters the ECU (Electronic Control Unit), resulting in a part number change to 25817110. The second involved adding a new calibration and manufacturing process, resulting in a part number change to 25828680. Both changes received final sign-off approval on May 11, 2007.
From my study of the CTS recall, the mat failures for the CTS were blamed on improper assembly or rather the lack of tape used in assembly to keep the mat in place after the car entered use. The first build period that was included in the recall went from May 2004 until August 31, 2004.

On September 1, 2004 the assembly design change was implemented to reduce the z-folding issue by adding 3 pieces of tape to the center of the seat, 2 pieces between the felt and 3D mesh (that's the sensor mat matrix itself), and 1 piece between mesh and seat foam. This second production phase went from September 1, 2004 until May 31, 2005. These cars were not recalled but were per in a special coverage group.

From June 1, 2005 until February 18, 2007 there was a problem with the assembly process at Lear and the mats were getting folded during assembly. This third assembly group of mats was also included in the recall along with the first group. The fourth assembly group, running from February 19, 2007 until the end of production in June 2007 had this assembly issue resolved and were not in the recall group but rather the special coverage group like the second build group.

Now in the information from GM on the Kappa mats, it makes no mention of what the changes were in production that were authorized in May 2007. it is interesting to note though that this change comes 1 month after the final change at Lear to the Cadillac assembly.

Keep in mind the sensor mats from both cars came from IEE and were assembled by Lear.

Looking at the GM data, The number of vehicles affected spikes in the 2007 model year. Here are the numbers from the GM warranty database for the Kappa:

Number of repairs by model year:

Solstice
2006: 554
2007: 826
2008: 355
2009: 144​

Sky
2007: 563
2008: 200
2009: 116​

What makes this data so difficult to analyze is the fact that production numbers also spike in 2007 so are the spikes we're seeing due to production or the production change in the mat? Here are the percentage of recorded repairs vs production numbers for each vehicle:

Solstice
2006: 2.96%
2007: 3.88%
2008: 2.52%
2009: 3.43%​

Sky
2007: 3.62%
2008: 1.54%
2009: 2.84%​

With the CTS, the data showed that the different phases of production had a direct correlation to the number of failures as 2005 and 2006 MY CTS had higher failure rates than later models. In the end, it would have been nice had GM expanded upon the changes made in production to the current part number for the seat cushion assembly.
 
#198 ·
There has been concern expressed about the number of asymmetric airbag firings, but I have to wonder why. Most cars are driven with only the driver most of the time. Probably 90% of my driving is solo, and Robo has made a similar comment about his. I will speculate that most risky driving is also done solo. Given all of that, even leaving out my speculation, an asymmetric airbag deployment is by far the most likely result of a severe crash. Unless there is data that indicates that the asymmetric deployment happened with an occupied passenger seat, there is no indication of a problem. Maybe I have missed it, but is there any such data?
 
#200 · (Edited)
John,

I started looking for a salvage sky about 2.5 years ago. Found a couple of sites that listed Sky's and Solstice. My number one disqualifier was air bag deployment. These things are going away very rapidly.

I have no idea how many site like this there are but would guess 20 or so. I looked at two normally ever single day for a year or so. Trying to find something that I felt I could handle and that was close by. On these two sites, they have pictures of the wrecked vehicle, normally about 8-10. I started looking at interior shots to see if the air bag had been deployed. After a year, looking at (guessing here) nearly 200 vehicles, I had not found one with the passenger air bag deployed. Numbers seemed off to me. I knew we had questions on activation system, and just began to follow and keep track of the numbers of deployed passenger side air bags that deployed. Another year and half has passed and I think the is the only one I have seen in that time frame. We had one, but it was posted twice. One that looked like the bag could possibly of deployed, but could have been something setting on the dash. It was a head on shot. I did count it though.

So now after looking at all of them over 2.5 years, again the number is guessed at. I would say now I have seen (via photographs) near 450 destroyed Kappa's. I believe Hoosier has seen at least twice as many. Some could have been the same car no question. But he had only seen one deployed and he buys wrecked Skys and Solstice to restore. Pretty low numbers when you think about it.

We have 3 or 4 occurrences where we can say for sure that they work. How many of the others were single drivers, no idea. You don't get that information on these sites.

My take of it is. Use your seat belt, drive the car like your passengers life depends on it, like always.

I have seen quite a few that you would have sworn the driver side airbag should have deployed, but didn't and I have seen some where it deployed and it did not appear it hit hard enough to break the head light, just pushed it in a inch or two.

I only got started on this to find a savable car. But after I got the car, I still was amazed at how many are crashed, so easily totaled and the passenger seat air bag deployment. I truly believe they have a problem, but because of such low production numbers are burying their heads in the sand. Robo is trying to get them to look.

Again, this is not to scare people in any way. Just be aware that all things may not be as they appear to be.

I don't want to see anyone get hurt, especially with me feeling about it the way I do.

Just drive safe and use your seat belt no matter what the light says.
 
#201 ·
The other night I saw a Tv Advertisement from some Lawyer company in regards to this.
The lawsuits they were looking for involved the failure of the passenger airbag to deploy and they specifically named the Sky and Solstice
 
#204 ·
It is too bad that we can't access the SRS "black-box" data to know what the system status was at the time of impact, and how it read the impact. The accident report would be useful also, especially regarding a description of the incident and whether there were injuries.

Impact directly on the frame rail should be the most likely to activate the airbags, as it should result in the maximum deceleration.
 
#205 ·
That information would clear up a lot of questions. Basically IF you had the black box data and IF the accident report stated number of passengers in the Kappa and in the case of a passenger being present IF you knew the weight of that passenger, then we could draw reasonable conclusions to why the airbag did or did not deploy. Trying to get all that info together though seems to be nearly impossible from a consumer standpoint. Lord knows I tried.

For a bit of an update on the NHTSA investigation, no progress has been made since late October when they posted GM's response to the Petition. So today I wrote the following letter:

Mr. Yon and Ms. Yukevich,

I am writing to follow up on the progress of NHTSA Action Number DP16001. Back in October the response from GM was posted to the NHTSA internet system. I was wondering if any further progress towards a decision on this petition has been made.

I would also like to draw your attention to the whitepaper attached to my original petition back in May regarding the issue with determining the failure rate of the IEE/LEAR Passenger Presence Sensor (PPS) sensor mat based solely off of warranty repair information. The Kappa platform (2006-10 Pontiac Solstice and 2007-10 Saturn Sky) is a 2 seat convertible rear wheel drive platform. The vehicle has seen limited use by its owners over its lifetime as can be seen by the reported mileage in the GM warranty database and as such, this defect is less likely to manifest itself in the Kappa platform than other platforms that have been the subject of previous recalls due to the limited amount of use the vehicles experience. Other manufacturers were not able to determine the depth of the issue until they expanded their research beyond the warranty system.

In addition, based on my research of the NHTSA consumer complaints received on this problem, of the complainants that responded whether or not they repaired the failed PPS sensor mat, 60% did not have the repair completed with the majority of these complainants siting expense of repair as the primary factor.

I wish to thank you for your time in looking into this matter and, if there is any way I may be of assistance in making your final decision whether or not to approve this petition, please feel free to contact me either via email or phone at 951-258-9842.

Thank you,

Troy Lyman
Owner
2007 Saturn Sky
Will let you know the response I get though I'm almost certain it's going to be "we're working on it".
 
#209 ·
Called the NHTSA today and asked if they had anything new on our petition. They didn't...just said they were still working on it and that it hadn't been forgotten. I feel it is important to follow up on this so they know we're not forgetting about it either. I plan on following up again in May if nothing has changed by then as that marks the 1 year mark since the petition was accepted by them.
 
#211 ·
It's not problem...it's my OCDness coming out. LOL I'm fine so long as I have a deadline that says "This date we will know more." Without that though I get a little mental. LOL You should see when my car is in the shop for anything. LOL

"Oh, it will be done Monday at noon..."

Monday, 12:00:01 PM

"Hey, just was seeing if my car is done..." LOL
 
#220 ·
Outstanding result Robo. I know a lot of people contributed to this but you drove it home to get the appropriate attention and staying on top of it, plus keeping us all informed. My passenger sensor is still working, thankfully, and now at least I know a solution will be determined so its fixed before its a problem, but for many owners they may have had to pay to fix it, and may now get reimbursed for their costs

Congrats!
 
#225 ·
As I have stated before, a lot of folks helped with this. Tomato Soup with his tear down of the mat to see where the failure was occurring was a huge one. Being able to see others find the same damaged confirmed his findings. DaveOC helped with getting me production numbers. Everyone who filed a complaint with the NHTSA help support our claim that this was a bigger problem than GM realized. All that got this done. Every one of them played a role and without them I'd have nothing to write about. I may have made the push, but they gave me the inspiration and ammunition to do so.
 
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