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Here is a shot of the two chains. You can see the timing chain (lighter colored chain that wraps up around the cam sprockets) and the balancer chain (darker chain) that drives the water pump behind it.
 

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Got an update from the Chevy Dealer on Friday. They needed to dig deeper then the 1 hour = 100.00 per hour to 2 more hours total = 300.00 he said to check the head gasket and see if the chain was turning the water pump. They got back with me yesterday saying the head gasket was fine and the chain was turning so it should just be a water pump change. Total bill will be right at 1,200. I say sure go ahead and change it out. They get back with me this morning after getting the water pump off and said the pump and chain were turning, but the chain has a lot of slop in it. They tell me it needs a new kit installed that includes Sprockets, Chain and Tensioners. Total price is right at 2,200. While the pump is off I may as well get a new one. It is close to 300 for the pump. Grand total of little over 2,500 bucks..... Cheaper then the other dealer but still a lot of money to me. I love this car so I have to get it fixed!!!

Thanks for all of your all's responses! They was some really good info in the posts and a number of things to check.
Wow - I got off easy by comparison. Had the water pump replaced and then had to have the mechanic go back in to reset the tensioners. He was not a happy camper. Parts and labour came in at just over $600 but I "negotiated" my way out of any of the costs associated with the tensioner reset as he didn't use the proper tool when replacing the pump. All is good again.
 

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The big expense for any car, is labor costs for tear down & re-install at dealership prices. Hard on any checkbook or Mastercard.
At 115k on the odo, this is the right thing to do at this point. I love this car so I have to get it fixed!!! Expensive love knows no bounds or amount.

With the front half of the motor already apart to inspect the suspect WP/over heating issue, other problems per the SM/tech at Dealership 2 confirms what the 1st dealership determined to be the problem.
Less costs at this dealer than the one that installed the OEM WP replacement.

1) Difference in price between the two dealerships?
2) WP warranty?

Head gasket is fine. That's a plus in your favor and checkbook. However "so it should just be a water pump change". Hmmmm.
This is the 3rd WP, the OEM one, then the replacement one from the first dealership, that has a parts warranty?
But this 2nd WP did not fail on it's own per the 2nd dealer or did it fail in some way? IF it did then it's warranty from the
1st dealer. IF not a failure of the part, then it is non-warranty issue on the part from the 1st dealer.
However...I say sure go ahead and change it out. You opted for a new WP and the cost/labor here driving up your bottom line.

This extra cost to you for this new WP part, $300. is an add on to your total costs. 3rd WP
on this car since the factory @115k with no head/motor damage so far. I see where you changed out the OEM thermostat recently
and burped the system. That's good in one aspect here, old OEM part gone so it wasn't a stuck thermostat that was driving up your
temps in the first place, not that the 1st dealership would have noticed that or replaced the thermostat in the WP replacement they did earlier?

Then this from the 2nd dealership: Tensioning guides was really loose and all of the teeth on the sprocket were wore down.
SO.. did the 1st dealership miss this too when replacing your WP? Did their work cause this slop in the chain guides, thus causing the worn sprocket issue and now replacement of these parts at dealership 2 also?




Timing chain/balancer chain replacement with guides/sprockets. Another good thing to do on your part with 115k on the odo. Expensive? Yes.
Less expensive than having your motor blow out later. Pretty much.
Tensioning guides was really loose and all of the teeth on the sprocket were wore down. Soon this would have let go in Murphy's Law world.

Now back to the warranty issue here.
In writing from this 2nd dealership. After this work has been completed, the first 30 days will tell you something.

I would bring it back to them, have them re-check everything they did if you have any concerns, odd noises, temps rise beyond your comfort level.
Lot of money on your part, lot of labor on their part, just to be safe to both parties involved here.
They the dealership does not want to go through this again for a warranty issue.
You do not want to go through this again for the time lost, money well spent.
A never ending cycle when dealing with several dealerships.

When was this 2nd WP changed out by the first dealer? Mileage on the odo? Cost of that job to your checkbook?
How did the 1st dealership miss all the worn sprockets teeth, loose slop in the chain guides AND... anything else?
I understand from your point of view that I might as well replace it with a new one, why risk it at the cost of $300,
plus the original labor costs of this job at the first dealership.

Lot of love and expense on your part with your car, maybe GM will help some if you bring it to their attention,
then again maybe not for a car no longer in their production line up?

Luck with it. Let us know is all is well after the break in period of 30 days/3000 miles more or less.
AND IF you have to return to the 2nd dealership for problems related to their most recent work on your car?

LAC
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Received the car last night. Friend of mine brought up a Great Point! Where did the metal shavings go from the sprockets being worn down? They have to be sitting in the oil pan and circulating through out the engine when running. I asked the dealership if they drooped the oil pan to clean it out. They said the motor would have to be pulled to get the oil pan off. "I didn't know this" They said they did change the oil and filter and would recommend doing another oil and filter change at 500 miles "I will do it sooner" . So with that added to the bill I had a grand total of 2,699.39. They said I have a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty on the work they did. I looked at the papers before handing over my credit card and didn't see that written anywhere. I asked why it wasn't, and they said it's automatic with GM on the work they did. I ended up having them hand write the warranty on the papers and sign their name to it, and then I paid them.

So, I get in the car right at 5:30 last night, and the shops closing time. I start the car and it has a weird vibration I had never felt from this car before. The motor wasn't idling anything like it did before. I let it warm up as always and it seemed to calm down. I take off down the road and it seems to run fine. I was mainly keeping my eye on the temperature of course and after reaching 190 it leveled and and stayed there. Then I start testing the performance and anything over 4000 rpms didn't feel right and I had a code come up on the display. I took a picture of the code and sent it to JohnWR a Moderator here "Great Guy" He said it was general Malfunction Indicator Light that some call the Service Engine Light that could mean about anything. He also said if this light is ever blinking don't drive it because it's something serious. I took the car home and parked it.

Drove the car straight to the dealership this morning and told them about the code. They take the the car into a bay and scan it. After like half an hour they tell me it was the Intake Camshaft Solenoid and they replaced it and said the car was good to go. So far So Good! Car is running GREAT and the Temperature of the car is running between 185 - 190 consistently with the temperature here in Bardstown, KY right at 78. Perfect Top Down Weather!!!

Thanks for all the help and reply's everyone! You people are Awesome!!!
 

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Received the car last night. Friend of mine brought up a Great Point! Where did the metal shavings go from the sprockets being worn down? They have to be sitting in the oil pan and circulating through out the engine when running. I asked the dealership if they drooped the oil pan to clean it out. They said the motor would have to be pulled to get the oil pan off. "I didn't know this"
They are right, the engine does need to be pulled to pull the oil pan. it's a pain but no way around it. Maybe not pulled all the way out, but enough that you can't just "raise it a little" and get to it. I want to preface the rest of this post by saying I'm not sure how much automotive knowledge you have so I'm writing this as though you have none so that way regardless of your actual knowledge level I don't miss anything...you know, never ASSuME. LOL

Now, about that question about the shavings...we'll get to that in a moment.

So, I get in the car right at 5:30 last night, and the shops closing time. I start the car and it has a weird vibration I had never felt from this car before. The motor wasn't idling anything like it did before. I let it warm up as always and it seemed to calm down. I take off down the road and it seems to run fine. I was mainly keeping my eye on the temperature of course and after reaching 190 it leveled and and stayed there. Then I start testing the performance and anything over 4000 rpms didn't feel right and I had a code come up on the display. I took a picture of the code and sent it to JohnWR a Moderator here "Great Guy" He said it was general Malfunction Indicator Light that some call the Service Engine Light that could mean about anything. He also said if this light is ever blinking don't drive it because it's something serious. I took the car home and parked it.
As a general rule, a flashing Check Engine Light (CEL) or Service Engine Light (SEL)...which are the same thing and the two terms are interchangeable so you'll hear it referred to both ways...usually means you have a misfire condition in the engine which IS serious and you SHOULD stop the car. JohnWR is spot on with this (and one of the electrical geniuses we have on the board AND a great guy...). When it comes on and stays on though, there are a few hundred things it could mean. To determine what the problem is, you need a code reader to pull the code then you look the code up on the internet and see what that code means. Usually it will be something like P0300 (which is general engine misfire), P0013 (intake cam solenoid) and P0014 (exhaust cam solenoid) to name a few.

Good news is for about $15 and a smart phone you can do this yourself. You can get a Bluetooth dongle for about $10 off eBay and then download the Torque app for your Android phone (there is a different app for Apple but I can't remember it at the moment). Both apps have a free version which will read codes, display codes, and let you clear codes. The Pro version of the Torque app which will give you enough information to make your head spin is a whopping $5 last I checked.

Here is a link to one of the Bluetooth dongles on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bluetooth-OBD2-Scanner-Adapter-OBDII-Diagnostic-Tool-TORQUE-Android-ELM327/372679204375?hash=item56c5695e17:g:qgEAAOSw0kVc7RUI

This is what I use for simple code reading/clearing and running some virtual gauges if I want. For what you're doing, this will be more than enough.

This will let you immediately scan your car and see what codes are being thrown so that you don't have to get it to a dealer or shop to figure out this information since some places do charge to read codes.

Which you may have again shortly...

Drove the car straight to the dealership this morning and told them about the code. They take the the car into a bay and scan it. After like half an hour they tell me it was the Intake Camshaft Solenoid and they replaced it and said the car was good to go. So far So Good! Car is running GREAT and the Temperature of the car is running between 185 - 190 consistently with the temperature here in Bardstown, KY right at 78. Perfect Top Down Weather!!!
Remember wondering where those shavings may have gone? Chances are they wound up in your Camshaft Solenoids. Yes, solenoids plural. You have one on the intake and the exhaust and usually when one goes, the other isn't far behind. So if they changed just the intake, the exhaust may go sometime in the near future. It is not uncommon when you have the kind of wear that you did in the timing chains that the debris winds up in these solenoids and if you look up pictures on these solenoids I'm sure you'll find a few showing what they look like when people remove them and find them packed full of not-so-happy metal shavings.

Good news is even if you're not highly mechanically inclined, these are super easy to replace and fairly cheap. Tools required are a 10mm socket and ratcheting wrench with a short extension (Lefty loosy righty tighty LOL).

If you look at the picture I've attached, you'll see the valve cover of the engine (it's the huge red thing...and this is with the engine cover removed by pulling up on it really hard) and running down the center of it are four coils that drive your spark plugs (the black squares with wires coming out). Just in front of the one on the far right of the head (the engine is sitting with the front of the car to the right and the rear of the car to the left) you'll see two round looking cylinders poking up with wires coming from them. These are the cam solenoids...intake is on the left (driver's side) and exhaust is on the right (passenger side). To change one, you start by pulling up on a little plastic retainer on the plug (they are the gray part of the plugs in the picture) that unlocks the plastic button (which is the black part of the plug that is surrounded by the afore mentioned gray lock) you have to push on while pulling up on the plug to remove the plug from the solenoid. The retainer doesn't come out...well, shouldn't come out...but just pulls up a few millimeters. When the plug has been removed, you will use your 10mm socket to remove the one bolt that holds the solenoid to the valve cover. Once this is out, give a firm tug on the solenoid and it will come out. You may need to work it a bit as there is an o-ring on it to seal it in the valve cover.

Once that is out, insert the new solenoid, seat it in the hole while aligning it's mounting tab for the bolt is aligned with the hole for it in the valve cover, replace the bolt tightening it down to just barely past snug, put the plug back on the new solenoid pushing down until you hear a slight click, then push the retainer in the plug back in place. Done.

I think the solenoids are about $50 each perhaps? Here are the part numbers for both:

Intake camshaft solenoid: 12655420
Exhaust camshaft solenoid: 12655421

I don't know what they charged you for the solenoid but this may save you a few dollars at least and is really no more difficult than changing your spark plugs and easier than changing your oil. Hope this helps and I hope the other solenoid doesn't fail but at least, if it does, you are aware and have some knowledge that may save you a few bucks.
 

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This is good news for you, So Far. You did the right thing, with the warranty in writing imo.
First 30 days, hell first 30 minutes more like it to find a problem. Replacing the intake cam solenoid
fixes part of the problem here though.

How did the dealership miss this code before handing the car back to you? Rough or semi-rough idling
test drove car by service tech but... it's good to go? Picking up your car at 5:30pm just when the shop is closing... Hmmm.
Dealership has the car for 1/2 hour to hook up their scanner, read the code then determine that the solenoid is bad. OK
but this was done after the work was completed. I would check under your hood, just to see the ole eye test, IF anything else
looks out of place? Check all connections, fittings, hoses, etc. You never know until you look closely. Question everything you
don't like? For $2700. bills you have that right, warranty or not.

Good that the temps are with normal range for now. Changing out the oil & filter is important cause your friend is right here
where did those shaving go? New oil & filter is cheap insurance when having major work done like this. Unless the oil pan really
needs to come off is another question and.. expense on your part. I'd wait before doing that.

Robo ( another nice guy too, here on our network ) has some great info, about if one cam solenoid went, the " other " one is surely
to go out soon. Easy to replace, not that expensive and gives you some piece of mind here sort of. Changing out the plugs would
be a good idea too @115k if they have not been replaced before? Go easy on your performance tests during this break in period imo.
Normal driving for awhile , as you check over their work and how your car operates to your $2700. satisfaction?
Anything you don't like you can go back and address your concerns with the SM at the dealership as they arise, more or less.

Top down weather driving conditions... curb your enthusiasm, prevent the permagrin just a bit here. Keep your drives short and close to home & dealership, just in case for a few days/weeks.
You do not want to be out in the boonies, carving up the twisties and... have something go wrong, long tow bill back to the dealership, know what I mean?

For $2700 bills things better be ok for you the consumer/owner/operator.
IF so then let the dealership/GM know your satisfaction with this dealer, and...
maybe not so satisfied with the first dealership?
It's just words after all,... like the hand written warranty signed by the dealership.. in writing.

LAC
 

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T

How did the dealership miss this code before handing the car back to you?
LAC
I will answer this portion. Chances are, there wasn't enough of an "issue" to set the code yet. These sensors are oil driven. My guess is, you just found out where some of your metal shavings went, if there were any. But I wouldn't be too concerned with metal shavings. All motors have shavings to an extent. If you have a 115k on it, I wouldn't worry too much.

And to make a statement about doing the timing chain....A timing chain here in Detroit $2500-$3000 on these cars at the dealership. If I do it, I can replace balancer chain, balancer sprockets, all guides, timing chain (basically a kit for balancer and timing), WP, and 4 new coils, about $500. A new long block LDK from ZZP with a turbo....$2499. Which way am I going if a dealer has to do the work???? Choice is simple if I don't do the timing chain myself...
 

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And to make a statement about doing the timing chain....A timing chain here in Detroit $2500-$3000 on these cars at the dealership. If I do it, I can replace balancer chain, balancer sprockets, all guides, timing chain (basically a kit for balancer and timing), WP, and 4 new coils, about $500. A new long block LDK from ZZP with a turbo....$2499. Which way am I going if a dealer has to do the work???? Choice is simple if I don't do the timing chain myself...
Ghost, I just did my first timing chain (picture above and I think I still need to take up that slack between the cam sprockets) but doing it outside the engine bay is cake. How much more difficulty does having it in the engine bay add to the task? Is removing the radiator recommended or can you do it with the radiator still in place? Looks like there is room in there to do it but it seems like it could get snug in a hurry.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I will answer this portion. Chances are, there wasn't enough of an "issue" to set the code yet. These sensors are oil driven. My guess is, you just found out where some of your metal shavings went, if there were any. But I wouldn't be too concerned with metal shavings. All motors have shavings to an extent. If you have a 115k on it, I wouldn't worry too much.

And to make a statement about doing the timing chain....A timing chain here in Detroit $2500-$3000 on these cars at the dealership. If I do it, I can replace balancer chain, balancer sprockets, all guides, timing chain (basically a kit for balancer and timing), WP, and 4 new coils, about $500. A new long block LDK from ZZP with a turbo....$2499. Which way am I going if a dealer has to do the work???? Choice is simple if I don't do the timing chain myself...
Service Tech told me "I forgot to mention before now" that they changed out 3 chains one of them being the timing chain. I have the brake down of the bill and work done in my car "Not driving it today because of the rain" I'll snap a picture of it and post it here soon.
 

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Well...if they told you 3, I'd be skeptical. There are only 2 as I stated above, a timing chain and a balancer chain. The balancer runs the WP, the timing just runs the camshafts. Make sure your paperwork says 2 and not 3...
 

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Well...if they told you 3, I'd be skeptical. There are only 2 as I stated above, a timing chain and a balancer chain. The balancer runs the WP, the timing just runs the camshafts. Make sure your paperwork says 2 and not 3...
I was thinking the same thing...3 chains????
 

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Ghost, I just did my first timing chain (picture above and I think I still need to take up that slack between the cam sprockets) but doing it outside the engine bay is cake. How much more difficulty does having it in the engine bay add to the task? Is removing the radiator recommended or can you do it with the radiator still in place? Looks like there is room in there to do it but it seems like it could get snug in a hurry.
Actually Robo, I had a buddy (former tech) come over and I was at the final stages of tearing into it. So the front portion. He took one look at it and told me to put it back together and get it out to his house. He has a lift and and he said he'd work on it without me there!! BONUS!! So I put it back together. I haven't gone out there with it yet, still waiting on insurance and my plate.

As far as instructions, I have the GM shop instructions and there is nothing that states about removing the fan or radiator. I can tell you, if you are doing it without a hoist and time is of no issue, draining the coolant, removing the upper radiator hose and the fan and shroud is highly recommended!! There are like 5 wiring harnesses that run in front too that you have to figure out how to move...they're a pain in the arse.

It's not that I couldn't do it, I just don't have the patience....lol... I'm a hurry up and get it done kinda guy.
 

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Actually Robo, I had a buddy (former tech) come over and I was at the final stages of tearing into it. So the front portion. He took one look at it and told me to put it back together and get it out to his house. He has a lift and and he said he'd work on it without me there!! BONUS!! So I put it back together. I haven't gone out there with it yet, still waiting on insurance and my plate.

As far as instructions, I have the GM shop instructions and there is nothing that states about removing the fan or radiator. I can tell you, if you are doing it without a hoist and time is of no issue, draining the coolant, removing the upper radiator hose and the fan and shroud is highly recommended!! There are like 5 wiring harnesses that run in front too that you have to figure out how to move...they're a pain in the arse.

It's not that I couldn't do it, I just don't have the patience....lol... I'm a hurry up and get it done kinda guy.
LOL I have the book too but since the engine I'm working on is OUT of the car I'm using that section of the manual instead...which still kind of impresses me that they have a separate "How to tear the engine down in the car" section and a "How to tear the engine down out of the car" section in the service manual.

It looks fairly nightmarish to do it in the car...and like you I'm a hurry up and get it done kind of guy. LOL That's why this step wait step wait assembly path I'm on is making me mental. LOL
 

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Dang, 55 hours and $1,600 in labor.

But yes, two chains...well, one chain and one timing chain package which has all the parts for a proper timing chain replacement like the guides, tensioners and bolts as well as the chain.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
I have no idea what (55) means but with it on the same line as the labor you would think it was the amount of hours. Like you guys said though that doesn't add up. They told me they charged 100 per hour.

During this break in period I've only took it to 5k rpms one time and that was at high speed. I haven't gotten down on it from a dead start yep. Car is running great and no more codes. I'm going to change the oil and filter this weekend. After draining the oil I'm going to take a magnet to it to see if there are any shavings. Any other recommendations you all can think of?

Greatly Appreciated! :cheers:
 
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