[radtech]

The only reason these are the cheapest roadsters in production is due to the fact that the base models are completely spartan. I will use the Solstice as an example since it is the cheaper of the two.

I didn't think in this day and age that basic safety & convenience features such as ABS brakes, Air Conditioning, Floor Mats, and KeyLess Entry would be optional equipment. They are a few other options that should be standard (IMHO). But the point is that this car is the cheapest roadster because you basically get a car with nothing! All you're getting is good looks, two seats, a radio/CD player, and relatively no luggage compartment for $20,000. Oh! I forgot about the wind in your hair. Tell me what's so great about that!

Seems to me that we (consumers) pay more money for less car, and call it a good deal, when it really should be the other way around. Why do two-seaters cost more than your average 4-door, 5 passenger sedan? Does that make sense? There is so much less material used in a two-seater, so why do they cost more? There's considerably less sheet metal, glass, paint (less surface area), upholstery (only 2 seats), carpeting, wiring, and other materials.

I'm interested to hear opinions on the subject.

 

[SkyMan 08]

in my opinion, I feel like GM was providing a service of a Bare bones back to basics roadster, there are many people that think that all those so called comfort and safety options are just weigh adding penalties, they feel that if your going to own a roadster of this type you chould be skilled enough to drive it without ABS, you shouldn't need Air Conditioning, especially if 90 percent of your driving is going to be top down fun driving the curvy roads...
Plus if someone was wanting to convert a Solstice to a racing car the first thing he will do is strip all the accessories...Now the Sky will have all those safety and convenience options you mentioned as standard equipment... and the luggage sitiation to me is not important because mine wil lbe used as a daily commuter to work and for pleasure drives on the weekends, me and my wife will carry an overnight bag with one change of clothes and the necessities, for overnight trips.... So it is what you want, if you want A good looking sports car that you can enjoy the Solstice and Sky will be perfect, if you want something cheap buy a Kia...there are not many cars like this for the price these will be selling for...
as usual these are just my opinions right or wrong it ends up the individuals decision what he wants to spend for what he gets....

 

[radtech]

I understand, perfectly, what you are saying with regard to a back to basics roadster. But what I am really trying to get an opinion on is the cost of a two-seater vs. the cost of an average 4-door, 5 passenger sedan. Given the fact that there's so much less material that goes into a two-seater, how can one account for the higher cost? I'm simply asking for an explanation as to why two-seaters cost more.

 

[SkyMan 08]

it's like comparing apples and oranges, you have here a low volumn sports car and trying to compare it to a high volumn sedan, (as production goes up the price per unit goes down) also if you knew the construction of these cars with the hydroforming then you would know that that process is more expensive and it provides a stronger more rigid structure to base a sports car on...
I hope this helps you understand

 

[SkyMan 08]

one other thing, you mentioned the wind in your hair, have you ever driven any open top vehicle? if you have it is a feeling you cannot get in any sedan, a feeling of freedom....yes it can be noisy, hot or even dangerous, but it is a matter of taste, up to the individual.. thats why there are all types of vehicles, from the mini car to the big road hog SUV's there is a vehicle that meets any person's desire or need... Not all cars are practacle for every person... I spent the last 20 years buying cars that were practical, now it is time again to get a fun car.....

 

[SkyHawk]

The only reason these are the cheapest roadsters in production is due to the fact that the base models are completely spartan. I will use the Solstice as an example since it is the cheaper of the two---------------------------------
Seems to me that we (consumers) pay more money for less car, and call it a good deal, when it really should be the other way around. Why do two-seaters cost more than your average 4-door, 5 passenger sedan? Does that make sense? There is so much less material used in a two-seater, so why do they cost more? There's considerably less sheet metal, glass, paint (less surface area), upholstery (only 2 seats), carpeting, wiring, and other materials.

I'm interested to hear opinions on the subject.

You young fellers correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that in some of my undergrad mgt accounting, eco and finance courses that costing and pricing these types of goods had little to do with the number or size or weight of components or that of the finished product and more to do with size of market, size of planned production run, cost of components (which tend to be higher for smaller run sizes), fixed costs for design, setup, production all of which must be absorbed by the the number of vehicles to be produced (the fewer to be produced the higher the fixed costs to be absorbed by each vehicle), and pricing is more a function of fixed + variable costs plus mark-up modified by competive pricing for that good in the marketplace vis-a-vis similar goods. There's a lot more, but let's just say that a Ferrari ain't gonna be less than Hummer cause it has less metal and glass. :lol:

 

[SkyMan 08]

You young fellers correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that in some of my undergrad mgt accounting, eco and finance courses that costing and pricing these types of goods had little to do with the number or size or weight of components or that of the finished product and more to do with size of market, size of planned production run, cost of components (which tend to be higher for smaller run sizes), fixed costs for design, setup, production all of which must be absorbed by the the number of vehicles to be produced (the fewer to be produced the higher the fixed costs to be absorbed by each vehicle), and pricing is more a function of fixed + variable costs plus mark-up modified by competive pricing for that good in the marketplace vis-a-vis similar goods. There's a lot more, but let's just say that a Ferrari ain't gonna be less than Hummer cause it has less metal and glass. :lol:

Well I am not a young feller, and I never took and undergraduate studies, but I do work in engineering in a manufaturing plant and I read our business briefs... You made the same point I was trying to make, I guess I just oversimplified it.... Thanks

 

[radtech]

one other thing, you mentioned the wind in your hair, have you ever driven any open top vehicle? if you have it is a feeling you cannot get in any sedan, a feeling of freedom....yes it can be noisy, hot or even dangerous, but it is a matter of taste, up to the individual.. thats why there are all types of vehicles, from the mini car to the big road hog SUV's there is a vehicle that meets any person's desire or need... Not all cars are practacle for every person... I spent the last 20 years buying cars that were practical, now it is time again to get a fun car.....

Believe it or not, I will purchase the Sky. You seem to think I'm criticizing the car. I was simply trying to analyze industry pricing using a common sense or logical approach. E.g. less production/building materials should equal lower end user cost. Just as you would expect, for example, a house with 2 bedrooms and little square footage to cost less than one with 4 and great square footage (All other things being equal of course).

 

[radtech]

You young fellers correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that in some of my undergrad mgt accounting, eco and finance courses that costing and pricing these types of goods had little to do with the number or size or weight of components or that of the finished product and more to do with size of market, size of planned production run, cost of components (which tend to be higher for smaller run sizes), fixed costs for design, setup, production all of which must be absorbed by the the number of vehicles to be produced (the fewer to be produced the higher the fixed costs to be absorbed by each vehicle), and pricing is more a function of fixed + variable costs plus mark-up modified by competive pricing for that good in the marketplace vis-a-vis similar goods. There's a lot more, but let's just say that a Ferrari ain't gonna be less than Hummer cause it has less metal and glass. :lol:

Thank you Skyhawk! That is the explanation I was looking for--it makes perfect sense. BTW....I'm not a young fellar either, but I consider that a compliment.

 

[SkyMan 08]

Believe it or not, I will purchase the Sky. You seem to think I'm criticizing the car. I was simply trying to analyze industry pricing using a common sense or logical approach. E.g. less production/building materials should equal lower end user cost. Just as you would expect, for example, a house with 2 bedrooms and little square footage to cost less than one with 4 and great square footage (All other things being equal of course).

well i tried to explain it too simply and didn't get my point across, I am glad Skyhawk could help you... and I didn;t think you were criticizing anything but why it should cost as much as it does... thats all, I am sorry if i gave you that impression

 

[brentil]

Why do two-seaters cost more than your average 4-door, 5 passenger sedan? Does that make sense? There is so much less material used in a two-seater, so why do they cost more? There's considerably less sheet metal, glass, paint (less surface area), upholstery (only 2 seats), carpeting, wiring, and other materials.

Well you're thinking about this wrong in three ways.

[1] Roadsters/Convertibles in general have MORE materials in them then a normal car. There's a really good reason a convertible version of a car has a much higher weight then it's Sedan/Coupe counterpart. You might not see those materials but they're there. Just think for one minute what the impact of removing the entire B/C pillar does to the rigidity of a car? How do you think they then make a car with no roof at all rigid? By adding 100's of pounds of thicker/stronger componenets, along with more bracing and such items. So right there alone you're paying for more actual materials then a Sedan/Coupe.

[2] A convertible roof involving a lot of fairly complex moving parts is [a] not cheap to design, and not cheap to produce. So here again you're paying for more complex parts and their develpment.

[3] R&D for a Roadster/Convertible is even more money/labor/time on top of a car combined with all the other costs of producing the base car. ll of your refrences to why it should be cheaper were completely parts/materials based. You have to remember a majority of the cost of a car goes to covering the R&D, development, laybor, etc of creating the car in the first place. So you have to pay for that on a normal car. then on a convertible car you also have to add in all the bracing, rework the entire car to handle the extra weight and shift in driving/handling. You also have to develop the convertible top, develop all the systems around it, all the changes to fit it and have it work, etc. Here again you're paying for more development.

A car like the Solstice/Sky which is destined to only be a niche car with limited production, $20k starting tag is phenominal to me. This isn't your dime a dozen Civic/Mustang that will sell 100,000+ in one year. It's a car that at best across two lines will sell 30k units.

 

[theirishgonzo]

the olny problem i see with the car is i will have to wait till not next spring but the spring of 2007 if the 2 per dealer a month and i am 22 on the list

 

[SkyMan 08]

the olny problem i see with the car is i will have to wait till not next spring but the spring of 2007 if the 2 per dealer a month and i am 22 on the list

I don't know if it will be 2 a month for every dealership, My dealer was told they would be geting 2 a month, and if you multiply that out by the number of Saturn dealerships then you will get aproximately the total predicted production per year that was announced... I for one am glad I am Second on the list here....

 

[brentil]

the olny problem i see with the car is i will have to wait till not next spring but the spring of 2007 if the 2 per dealer a month and i am 22 on the list

You're #22 on a list at a Saturn dealerhsip to get a Sky??? Wow. My best suggestion would to be to find a new dealership and get a better place in line. 22 seems kind of excesive for a car that hasn't even really had any mass advertising done yet.

Who told you 2 per month for the deliveries? Because dealers at this point have zero information on allotments and delivery information. Dealers will not know how many they'll get in thier first 4 month allocation for at least several more months. Dealers also don't know the following months allotments till well after they get thier 4 month allocation too. As GM gets the production lines up to full line speed cars will start being delivered at a faster rate as well.

 

[onefastx]

from what i was told was at least 9 per dealer from the start. and i would go talk to other dealers cause im first on the list from like 2 weeks ago

 

[brentil]

from what i was told was at least 9 per dealer from the start. and i would go talk to other dealers cause im first on the list from like 2 weeks ago

Who told you 9 per dealer though? If it was a dealer that said that I would pile a giant helping of salt on it. Dealers are netoriously the #1 source of bad information. As I mentioned above 4 month allocations aren't even out yet for the Sky. There are less Saturn dealers then Pontiac, so 9 per dealer might be possible, but who knows yet.

 

[SeanSky]

How about a comparison with Miata?

:cheers: Mazda's website has a tool to compare their models with the competitors. Oddly enough, they don't show the Sky or the Solstice in the choices, but if you do enough digging, you can get them to compare the Miata to the Sosltice.

The Mazda Comparison page
Use the "pick any vehicle not shown above" section and switch to the 2006 model year

The results are interesting, to say the least. The system will go and get pricing for options to match the standard features of the Mazda.

Compare the Miata LS to the Solstice and the price advantage is to the Solstice by a few hundred $, options in. And the Solstice has a definite horsepower advantage.

Compare the MazdaSpeed Miata to the Solstice, and there is a $2,000 price diff between the vehicles - in the Solstice's favour. And what does your $2,000 buy you in the MazdaSpeed? 178 HP vs the Solstice's 177.

I think that means that we can be happy...

:cheers:
Sean

 

[brentil]

Compare the MazdaSpeed Miata to the Solstice, and there is a $2,000 price diff between the vehicles - in the Solstice's favour. And what does your $2,000 buy you in the MazdaSpeed? 178 HP vs the Solstice's 177.

I think that means that we can be happy...

:cheers:
Sean

The MSM doesn't actually sell for the price listed there. I almost bought one till I dind't fit in it with the roof down for $8k off the MSRP. You can easily get the cars for $17k-$19k if you look at the right places.

 

[SkyMan 08]

You're #22 on a list at a Saturn dealerhsip to get a Sky??? Wow. My best suggestion would to be to find a new dealership and get a better place in line. 22 seems kind of excesive for a car that hasn't even really had any mass advertising done yet.

Who told you 2 per month for the deliveries? Because dealers at this point have zero information on allotments and delivery information. Dealers will not know how many they'll get in thier first 4 month allocation for at least several more months. Dealers also don't know the following months allotments till well after they get thier 4 month allocation too. As GM gets the production lines up to full line speed cars will start being delivered at a faster rate as well.

I was told By the sales Manager at my dealership that they would be getting 2 a month, this information he got from a regional sales meeting he had with all dealers and the regional manager for this area. This dealership has been in business since 1992 and I have been doing business with them ever since, they have always been truthful and have never lied to me about anything.. and until I find out differently I will believe what he tells me, of course as he said that is based on production estimates, which as we all know can change due to various reasons...

 

[soulbluprint]

silly

Truly, I think that's funny. The Sky has less hp than the ION Redline, yet the redline is cheaper. Oh well. The Sky looks way cooler. I mean, I do understand the reasoning behind the higher cost for the roadster, but it's still funny to think, "Gee, smaller car, less hp, higher cost...hm..."