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Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
I finally found DTC P0502 in the manual. (It wasn't in the index.)

The VSS is a permanent magnet generator, which is probably why it has attracted the metal filings. As the transmission tailshaft rotates it generates a fluctuating voltage that increases frequency and amplitude as the tailshaft turns faster.

The test procedure is to put the vehicle on a rack, start the engine, engage a gear, and watch for the input on the Tech2. You could probably check it with an oscilloscope, but I have no idea what would be good or bad.

There are some electrical tests you can do with an ohmmeter:

With the VSS connected, unplug connector X2 from the ECM

Check the resistance between terminal 53 (Yellow) and terminal 40 (Purple):
  • More than 1500 Ohms indicates a cut or damaged wire
  • Less than 1300 Ohms indicates a shorted wire
Then check the resistance between:
  • Terminal 53 (Yellow) and Ground. Less than 10 Ohms is a short circuit.
  • Terminal 40 (Purple) and Ground. Less than 10 Ohms is a short circuit.
With X2 connected and the VSS unplugged you should have voltage at the Yellow wire with the ignition on.

I also found P0807. (Also not in the index.)

This code says that the CPP Sensor is not returning any voltage to the ECM. First unplug the CPP Sensor:
  • On the sensor measure resistance between terminal B (Light Green) and terminal A (Orange/Dark Green) as you sweep the sensor through its range. The resistance should vary smoothly.
  • Ignition OFF test for less than 1 Ohm between the Light Green wire and battery negative
  • Ignition ON test for 5 V between the Dark Blue/White wire and ground.
Very detailed write up. Thank you, I’ll start going through the steps. Pardon my ignorance, is the X2 connector The 58 pin connector? The smaller of the 2? I think it is just want to confirm. Those 2 wires are next to each other.

I measured what I believe was the right pins on the 58 pin connector. Here are the results.

112745


I tried to measure individual pins (>10 ohms as the goal) but either my cheaply little multimeter is the issue, there is a complete break/cut in both wires, or I was not getting a good ground, but both pins where not reading any resistance.

Also, to my previous post, would the OBDII port still work even if the fuse was not in place?
 

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Very detailed write up. Thank you, I’ll start going through the steps. Pardon my ignorance, is the X2 connector The 58 pin connector? The smaller of the 2? I think it is just want to confirm. Those 2 wires are next to each other.

I measured what I believe was the right pins on the 58 pin connector. Here are the results.

I tried to measure individual pins (>10 ohms as the goal) but either my cheaply little multimeter is the issue, there is a complete break/cut in both wires, or I was not getting a good ground, but both pins where not reading any resistance.

Also, to my previous post, would the OBDII port still work even if the fuse was not in place?
Yes, it is the 58-pin (or smaller) connector, and the two pins you need are adjacent. Assuming that the VSS is connected you likely have a cut wire. Finding it might be a challenge.

Whether the OBD port will work without the fuse depends on the scanner. The 12V at the port is there to power the scanner ifthe scanner does not have its own internal power (ie: battery). If it works at all, it will have full capability, regardless of the presence of a fuse.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
  • Yes, it is the 58-pin (or smaller) connector, and the two pins you need are adjacent. Assuming that the VSS is connected you likely have a cut wire. Finding it might be a challenge.

    Whether the OBD port will work without the fuse depends on the scanner. The 12V at the port is there to power the scanner ifthe scanner does not have its own internal power (ie: battery). If it works at all, it will have full capability, regardless of the presence of a fuse.
    Damn... not the news I wanted to hear. 😐
  • If the sensor itself is bad, wouldn’t it have the same issue and read same high(er) resistance?
 

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  • Damn... not the news I wanted to hear. 😐
  • If the sensor itself is bad, wouldn’t it have the same issue and read same high(er) resistance?
Possibly, depending on how it is bad. Try jumpering the VSS end of the wires together and then measuring between them at the ECM end, or just measure the continuity of each wire individually.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Perhaps found the culprit... The VSS that was pictured in the previous post had a part # 10456568. This is what I pulled out of the back of my 5 spd manual transmission. When looking online this part is ~10-25 bucks so not bad. I decided to call local auto parts store to see if they have a VSS in stock and they did for $125. Whoa! That’s a big difference. I asked him for part number, he gave something completely different (9604186) then what I pulled out of the transmission. I gave him my part number and he said that my part number also showed to be a VSS and it cost $22. I asked him what the difference was, he couldn’t tell.

So I decided to call a Saturn parts dealer in the area and he pulled OEM part #89060098 for manual transmission. I gave him the part number off of mine to cross reference and he said the one that I had was for an automatic transmission! 🤦‍♂️

all along I was thinking this was OeM and I never even thought to check.

can someone confirm that Automatic VSS will not work on the manual transmission? I feel that the costs difference of ~$20 vs ~$125is there for a reason?

On a separate note, I did jump the end of the connector at the VSS and measured at the ECU, and it checked out ok (not an open/cut/broken line).
 

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Perhaps found the culprit... The VSS that was pictured in the previous post had a part # 10456568. This is what I pulled out of the back of my 5 spd manual transmission. When looking online this part is ~10-25 bucks so not bad. I decided to call local auto parts store to see if they have a VSS in stock and they did for $125. Whoa! That’s a big difference. I asked him for part number, he gave something completely different (9604186) then what I pulled out of the transmission. I gave him my part number and he said that my part number also showed to be a VSS and it cost $22. I asked him what the difference was, he couldn’t tell.

So I decided to call a Saturn parts dealer in the area and he pulled OEM part #89060098 for manual transmission. I gave him the part number off of mine to cross reference and he said the one that I had was for an automatic transmission! 🤦‍♂️

all along I was thinking this was OeM and I never even thought to check.

can someone confirm that Automatic VSS will not work on the manual transmission? I feel that the costs difference of ~$20 vs ~$125is there for a reason?

On a separate note, I did jump the end of the connector at the VSS and measured at the ECU, and it checked out ok (not an open/cut/broken line).
When specific parts are listed for specific applications there is nearly always a reason. Since you have the wrong part for your application and it doesn't work, there might be a connection.

Rock Auto has that part for $89, so you can decide whether you want it faster and/or want to support your local parts store.

My guess right now is that the car's previous owner tried to cheap out and bought the wrong part, and now you get to pay for it.
 

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When there are two parts with DIFFERENT part numbers and DIFFERENT prices, you KNOW there is a reason. As JohnWR implied, dont cheap out. it is always more expensive in the long run. Just think how many hours you have spent chasing phantoms that would not have been there but for a cheapskate trying to save $100. If it was only a day (8 hours) thats $200 or more even if you work cheap.
 

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Discussion Starter #49 (Edited)
When there are two parts with DIFFERENT part numbers and DIFFERENT prices, you KNOW there is a reason. As JohnWR implied, dont cheap out. it is always more expensive in the long run. Just think how many hours you have spent chasing phantoms that would not have been there but for a cheapskate trying to save $100. If it was only a day (8 hours) thats $200 or more even if you work cheap.
I totally agree with you! I didn’t even think to cross reference the part number that came with the car from the previous owner. I just hope that it is in fact the issue and not additional issues like wiring.

I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt and would like to think that the previous owner had an issue, went on google, typed in VSS and bought the first one they saw without realizing there is a difference.

I am more concerned about why it was replaced in the first place since it is now clear that this is not the original piece. I hope there is not another underlying issue with wiring or ECU. 😐

will know when the right part gets here next week. For now onto the Clutch and throttle position sensor checks.

Also, now knowing the gunk around the sensor being the likely culprit, would it be worth draining transmission fluid and refilling? Or would it have to be a full flush?
 

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Discussion Starter #50
I finally found DTC P0502 in the manual. (It wasn't in the index.)

The VSS is a permanent magnet generator, which is probably why it has attracted the metal filings. As the transmission tailshaft rotates it generates a fluctuating voltage that increases frequency and amplitude as the tailshaft turns faster.

The test procedure is to put the vehicle on a rack, start the engine, engage a gear, and watch for the input on the Tech2. You could probably check it with an oscilloscope, but I have no idea what would be good or bad.

There are some electrical tests you can do with an ohmmeter:

With the VSS connected, unplug connector X2 from the ECM

Check the resistance between terminal 53 (Yellow) and terminal 40 (Purple):
  • More than 1500 Ohms indicates a cut or damaged wire
  • Less than 1300 Ohms indicates a shorted wire
Then check the resistance between:
  • Terminal 53 (Yellow) and Ground. Less than 10 Ohms is a short circuit.
  • Terminal 40 (Purple) and Ground. Less than 10 Ohms is a short circuit.
With X2 connected and the VSS unplugged you should have voltage at the Yellow wire with the ignition on.

I also found P0807. (Also not in the index.)

This code says that the CPP Sensor is not returning any voltage to the ECM. First unplug the CPP Sensor:
  • On the sensor measure resistance between terminal B (Light Green) and terminal A (Orange/Dark Green) as you sweep the sensor through its range. The resistance should vary smoothly.
  • Ignition OFF test for less than 1 Ohm between the Light Green wire and battery negative
  • Ignition ON test for 5 V between the Dark Blue/White wire and ground.
I had a couple of hours to work on the car today and tried to solve the p0807 code issue. I went through the steps with the multimeter and the connector checked out. However, when measuring the sensor terminal B and A while sweeping the sensor through the motion, I had a reading of “OL” (Open Line) the whole time. I never got a complete circuit reading. So went ahead and ordered a replacement.

after putting the car back together to take for a drive and get ready for help with the tuner, 2 interesting things happened:
1. I guess by cleaning off the VSS, that did the trick? My speedometer, odometer, trips, MPG, etc, all worked! I verified with the gps and speed was accurate and so was distance.
2. I am down to 2 codes. The throttle position sensor & clutch position sensor. BUT this time, it was a different code: P0808 (not P0807). So this is for “high” not low. I am hopeful that the new sensor solves the issue...

I still got the ESC OFF, Service Traction Control, and engine reduced power warnings. Could these be linked to the throttle position sensor issue? I am going to try and calibrate it tomorrow, I hope it’s not bad and I don’t have to buy a new pedal...
 

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you are getting there. Between JohnWR and you progress is being made. I am pleased for you because I was beginning to think you got a lemon...LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #52
you are getting there. Between JohnWR and you progress is being made. I am pleased for you because I was beginning to think you got a lemon...LOL
Thank You!! 🙂 I certainly feel like this is a team effort. She certainly requires some elbow grease and time. But I feel like I have gotten to know her pretty intimately haha
 

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Thank You!! 🙂 I certainly feel like this is a team effort. She certainly requires some elbow grease and time. But I feel like I have gotten to know her pretty intimately haha
I'm glad you're checking off your boxes. You know I've got to see how all of this turns out.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Ok, after taking about a week off, I got a little bit of time to work on the car again. I am now trouble shooting AC. I am noticing that the clutch is not engaging. After reading some posts, I’ll go through some trouble shooting steps (check connections, make sure every thing is plugged in and so on). I put a gauge on the low pressure port and although the refrigerant was low, terrible (bone dry).

my question is, does the relay have to face a certain way. Under the hood fuse box, there are relays that face in opposite directions. I don’t know if the high side or low side (or both) pressure sensors are bad so I planned on manually engaging the clutch (if it’s good still) and fill with refrigerant then go back to pressure sensors. if there is a leak, that will be a separate adventure.

This requires to jump two terminals based on the relay diagram. But my thought is if the relay was facing the wrong way, I could be jumping the wrong terminals. Or is that incorrect?

112826

112827
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Looks like clutch is good, I jumped it and clutch engaged. I topped off the refrigerant. First picture is where I started, second picture was the goal.

however, the air blowing out of the vents was not cold. :| When I put the relay back in, the AC clutch would not engage. Does that mean the pressure sensors are bad? Or just because the clutch is engaged doesn’t mean the compressor is any good?

Also read in another post something about Fans kicking in even before the coolant temp rises? With the clutch fan engaged (by being jumped) the fans always stayed off until coolant got hot enough which is when they kicked in

112828
112829


I tested the relay with the multimeter and it read 89 ohms of resistance between terminals 85 and 86 while between terminals 30 and 87 it read Open Line (which makes sense).
112830
 

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it could mean that the pressure sensing switch is bad and that would prevent the compressor from coming on to prevent burnout when the freon is low. I had that happen on a honda where temperature would cause the switch to open even if there was enough freon.
 

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it could mean that the pressure sensing switch is bad and that would prevent the compressor from coming on to prevent burnout when the freon is low. I had that happen on a honda where temperature would cause the switch to open even if there was enough freon.
you can test thatby shorting the twowires to the switch with a straight pin through them both
 

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I hope you got that Sky for a really good price.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Not as good as it should have been, but it is what it is. I am here now... 🙂 I am down to the last engine code, which is still the known one (clutch position sensor). I bought one last week based on the part number the dealer gave me. When it arrived yesterday, I tried to install it and it most certainly does not fit ever which way I tried. Below is a picture showing the old sensor (pulled out of car on bottom) and the new sensor that I was told is the OEM replacement (top). Immediate difference is that the old sensor rotates counter clockwise while the new one rotates clockwise. So they are clearly polar opposites unless I am missing something here?...

Can someone confirm which is the right part number for the clutch position sensor? 89047704 (top) that was provided by the dealer, or 89047699 (bottom) which is what matches up to the one that came off the car? If there is a picture of the mounted sensor, that would be much appreciated 🙂
112832
 

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I did a quick check at Rock Auto, and it appears that the one they sent you is the Brake Pedal Position Sensor.
 
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